Sound Change Quickie Thread
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Perhaps tC > ʔC > hC > ʕC > Cˤ ?
But my main question still stands: how to generate (and then dispose of, preferably interestingly) pharyngealised consonants.
But my main question still stands: how to generate (and then dispose of, preferably interestingly) pharyngealised consonants.
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Relevant.
Old Chinese is sometimes reconstructed as having developed word-level pharyngealization from uvulars and retroflexed vowels.
As for getting rid of it: the articulatory and acoustic paths are opposite, so they could eject either low or high on/offglides onto surrounding vowels, round, palatalize, or just turn to length (cf. ɜʕ ʕʷ > a: ɥ in Abkhaz), or merge with geminates as in Karacalar Ubykh, or cause diphthong metathesis (je > ej) as in Chechen.
Old Chinese is sometimes reconstructed as having developed word-level pharyngealization from uvulars and retroflexed vowels.
As for getting rid of it: the articulatory and acoustic paths are opposite, so they could eject either low or high on/offglides onto surrounding vowels, round, palatalize, or just turn to length (cf. ɜʕ ʕʷ > a: ɥ in Abkhaz), or merge with geminates as in Karacalar Ubykh, or cause diphthong metathesis (je > ej) as in Chechen.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Would the chain shift /qʰ > h > x > f/ be plausible?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
What about that shift:?
/t k/ (before back vowels) → /ʈ kʷ/ → /k p/
(with other consonants at these POA behaving analogically)
/t k/ (before back vowels) → /ʈ kʷ/ → /k p/
(with other consonants at these POA behaving analogically)
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
- Pogostick Man
- Avisaru
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:21 pm
- Location: Ohio
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I'd say so, the only snag being that I can really only see h > x before a back vowel (cf. h > ç / _i in English).CatDoom wrote:Would the chain shift /qʰ > h > x > f/ be plausible?
(Avatar via Happy Wheels Wiki)
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
So here's a slightly odd idea I had.
Let's say we have a sound change where vowels are uniformly lowered in the vicinity of uvulars; a pretty common shift, at least synchronically. As part of this change, /o/ shifts to /a/, losing its rounding distinction. Would it be plausible for the rounding distinction in this case to migrate to a preceding consonant? The change would be something like:
Co > Cʷa /_C[+uvular]
Let's say we have a sound change where vowels are uniformly lowered in the vicinity of uvulars; a pretty common shift, at least synchronically. As part of this change, /o/ shifts to /a/, losing its rounding distinction. Would it be plausible for the rounding distinction in this case to migrate to a preceding consonant? The change would be something like:
Co > Cʷa /_C[+uvular]
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yea, definitely. Especially if [o] is perceived as /ʷo/, and , if it exists, likewise, maybe in contrast to [ə] /o/ or [e] /ʲe/.
You could even have
[a e i o u] /a ʲə ʲɨ ʷə ʷɨ/
I believe something of the sort happened in Alan/Ossetian, at least historically.
You could even have
[a e i o u] /a ʲə ʲɨ ʷə ʷɨ/
I believe something of the sort happened in Alan/Ossetian, at least historically.
Slava, čĭstŭ, hrabrostĭ!
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
That is one of the classic changes of Northwest Caucasian (possibly Northeast as well, but I don't know that group as well), which is probably the origin of the Ossetian change.
-
- Lebom
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:50 pm
- Location: Berlin, Germany
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
What Ossetian change are we talking about here though? The only vaguely similar change in Ossetian I can think of is ku > kʷɨ in Iron Ossetian, together with a broader u > ɨ change.
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
To be honest, I was taking it as a given that Rusanov had a clue what he was talking about (bad move), because I didn't want to look it up in my Ossetian PDF, which is images and thus unsearchable.Acid Badger wrote:What Ossetian change are we talking about here though? The only vaguely similar change in Ossetian I can think of is ku > kʷɨ in Iron Ossetian, together with a broader u > ɨ change.
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
and why do you believe thatR.Rusanov wrote:I believe something of the sort happened in Alan/Ossetian, at least historically.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
- ObsequiousNewt
- Avisaru
- Posts: 434
- Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:05 pm
- Location: /ˈaɪ̯əwʌ/
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
/h/ > /f/ next to a rounded vowel, yes?
퇎
Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.
Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
Το̨ ανθροπς αυ̨τ εκψον επ αθο̨ οραναμο̨ϝον.
Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν. Θαιν.
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
If there's space throw in a hʷ stage, otherwise yes.
- Aurora Rossa
- Smeric
- Posts: 1138
- Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 11:46 am
- Location: The vendée of America
- Contact:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Japanese does something very similar, turning /h/ into /ɸ/ before the rounded high vowel. Although that could represent a retention of earlier /ɸ/ in that context rather than a change into it.ObsequiousNewt wrote:/h/ > /f/ next to a rounded vowel, yes?
"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
yes, f turned to h.
also better to just say /u/ because it's questionable whether it's "rounded" or not.
also better to just say /u/ because it's questionable whether it's "rounded" or not.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Isn't it in fact unrounded? [Is it known what it was when it was still /fu/?]
- Drydic
- Smeric
- Posts: 1652
- Joined: Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:23 pm
- Location: I am a prisoner in my own mind.
- Contact:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It's sometimes/often said to be [ɯβ], meaning unrounded but with a fricated bilabial release, thus adding some degree of lip-rounding.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It is “rounded” but not rounded.
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
- Hallow XIII
- Avisaru
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
- Location: Under Heaven
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I thought it just had compressed rounding instead of protruded rounding.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
Read all about my excellent conlangsR.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Basic Conlanging Advice
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
it *is* a retention from an earlier labial fricative stage, this is *known*
h > f / _V[+round] should be fine tho
h > f / _V[+round] should be fine tho
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Working dialects a little at the mo. Standard Lartau distinguishes labialisation in stops and fricatives, but in Black River Lartau, labialisation has become velarisation, e.g. tw tɣ.
All's well till we get to <xw>. I'm pretty sure <xɣ> isn't a thing, so what are the chances of xw χ, given there aren't any other uvulars?
All's well till we get to <xw>. I'm pretty sure <xɣ> isn't a thing, so what are the chances of xw χ, given there aren't any other uvulars?
-
- Lebom
- Posts: 198
- Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:51 pm
- Location: Marye Ketu, Paleta Giradai 10056
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I feel like having uvular non-stops without other uvular consonants is pretty okay. That being said, do you mean there's no velars in your original pool except /x/? (You could also try weirder things like /xʷ/ > /ʍ/ or /w/ or /ɣ/ or /g/ or something.)
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
So, here's a question regarding palatalization:
Let's say you've got a language that has a velar series and one coronal series. First, coronal consonants undergo palatalization under the usual conditions. Subsequently, velar consonants are also palatalized. Would it be plausible for the existing palatal(-ized) consonants to shift forward, becoming alveolar consonants, with the existing coronal consonants becoming dental, thereby preserving the original coronal-velar distinction in all environments?
Let's say you've got a language that has a velar series and one coronal series. First, coronal consonants undergo palatalization under the usual conditions. Subsequently, velar consonants are also palatalized. Would it be plausible for the existing palatal(-ized) consonants to shift forward, becoming alveolar consonants, with the existing coronal consonants becoming dental, thereby preserving the original coronal-velar distinction in all environments?
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Seri contrasts /x χ/ (and xʷ χʷ) but doesn't have any other uvulars.
CatDoom, that sounds plausible, but look up palatalization in Slavic and Chinese.
CatDoom, that sounds plausible, but look up palatalization in Slavic and Chinese.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
- Hallow XIII
- Avisaru
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
- Location: Under Heaven
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
As far as I understand something like this happened in some Pama-Nyungan languages, where original palatals shifted forward to be dental when another series was palatalized, thus bringing the total amount of coronal POAs up to four.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
Read all about my excellent conlangsR.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Basic Conlanging Advice