YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Astraios wrote:There is too much red in this thread...

Also, Hebrew verbs have a lot more to them than you might think from looking at the 'regular' binyanim, and they're generally not robotically derived from a root (e.g. the intransitive verb 'X rusts' uses the causative heħlīd, the causative verb 'X makes Y strong' uses the intensive ħizzēq while the causative heħzīq means 'X holds Y still', etc.).
I am still confused... :?
I thought it would be unnatural if the verb system was inconsistent (e.g present singular CeCoC, future singular aCCeC, but causative has iCaCCe for singular present and CuCiC for future singular)

I have no idea how verbs work in tricon root languages and I don't think I can...
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by Vardelm »

Ahzoh wrote:I have no idea how verbs work in tricon root languages and I don't think I can...
No need to get whiny. Sleep on it, and maybe let things sit for a couple days. Then, look into downloading the files that Dewrad provided. You might have to create accounts on the various websites, but you can probably figure that out. Do some reading, and start asking questions about what you've read. You'll start to learn, and as you do, I bet you end up finding ways to make your language more interesting to yourself as well as others on the ZBB.
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Post by Astraios »

Not many languages are consistent. Hebrew has singular masculine present active patterns as diverse as CōCēC, maCCe, miCtaCCCēC. Make it a bit more interesting, look at the things you've been told to read, and yeah, don't be whiny. :p

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Dewrad wrote:
  1. Lipinski: Semitic Languages: Outline of a Comparative Grammar - this is a hefty tome, but worth reading.
  2. Moscati et al.: An Introduction to the Comparative Grammar of the Semitic Languages - not as in-depth as Lipinski, but probably a bit more accessible.
  3. Fufa:
    A Typology of Verbal Derivation in Ethiopian Afro-Asiatic Languages
    - you might just like this.
  4. Comrie: Aspect - you should read this and then tell me if you think your verbs are still fine. Frankly, they're probably the least fine bit of your language.
none of the books will download, the links have either expired or server loads too heavy...
Edit: so at least two of them work...
oh, but when I extracted the file they were both broken, wtf?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by KathTheDragon »

I had no trouble getting the first one. I'll upload it to mediafire if you want.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

KathAveara wrote:I had no trouble getting the first one. I'll upload it to mediafire if you want.
yes, please, and Comrie's Aspects too, because no matter what I do they're all being broken.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by KathTheDragon »

I'll have them up tomorrow.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

KathAveara wrote:I'll have them up tomorrow.
turns out all I needed to do was update my Adobe Reader :|

Are these books intended for a Semitic conlang?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by Cúlro »

Ahzoh wrote: I am still confused... :?
I thought it would be unnatural if the verb system was inconsistent (e.g present singular CeCoC, future singular aCCeC, but causative has iCaCCe for singular present and CuCiC for future singular)

I have no idea how verbs work in tricon root languages and I don't think I can...
The differences are due to how the system developed - the vowels in affixes caused changes to the vowels in the roots, adding affixes moved the stress to different vowels, and then unstressed vowels deleted leaving clusters. Not every pair of consonants can form a cluster in a language, so some forms will have vowels in different places, depending on which consonants are there. Affixes can affect stress in different ways - if stress is counted from the end of a word, affixes will obviously move it, but they might create heavy syllables (closed, or with long vowels) that attract stress. In your example of the present and future causative having different patterns, that might be caused by them taking different affixes, or being affixed onto different base forms.

You could try making the pre-triconsonantal (ie just agglutination/fusional affixes) words first, define stress rules so that stress changes a lot as affixes are added (even unpredictable lexical stress would be ok to use too, or stress to distinguish nouns and verbs maybe), and then define deletion rules for different cases (eg if a vowel deletion causes an illegal cluster, what happens?).

This will give you a more realistic naturalistic system that won't just be a copy of Hebrew (unless you copy Hebrew phonotactics)

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Post by Vardelm »

Ahzoh wrote:turns out all I needed to do was update my Adobe Reader :|
:-D

Ahzoh wrote:Are these books intended for a Semitic conlang?
None of the books are written by the authors to inform anyone about conlanging.

However, "Lipinski: Semitic Languages" and "Moscati et al.: An Introduction..." are both specifically about Semitic languages and how they developed. The advice you were given was to come up with a diachronic development for your tri-consonantal system so that it is more realistic. I'm sure Dewrad suggested these because they will go a long way in helping you understand how that could happen.

Semitic languages are part of the Afro-Asiatic language family, so "Fufa: A Typology..." might provide some extra information on related languages that might be of use to you.

"Comrie: Aspect" isn't specific to any particular language family. One of the main criticisms of your conlang was the aspect system, and so this would be helpful to you in re-designing a more realistic aspect system, regardless of whether it is "Semitic" in style or not.
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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Cúlro wrote: The differences are due to how the system developed - the vowels in affixes caused changes to the vowels in the roots, adding affixes moved the stress to different vowels, and then unstressed vowels deleted leaving clusters. Not every pair of consonants can form a cluster in a language, so some forms will have vowels in different places, depending on which consonants are there. Affixes can affect stress in different ways - if stress is counted from the end of a word, affixes will obviously move it, but they might create heavy syllables (closed, or with long vowels) that attract stress. In your example of the present and future causative having different patterns, that might be caused by them taking different affixes, or being affixed onto different base forms.

You could try making the pre-triconsonantal (ie just agglutination/fusional affixes) words first, define stress rules so that stress changes a lot as affixes are added (even unpredictable lexical stress would be ok to use too, or stress to distinguish nouns and verbs maybe), and then define deletion rules for different cases (eg if a vowel deletion causes an illegal cluster, what happens?).

This will give you a more realistic naturalistic system that won't just be a copy of Hebrew (unless you copy Hebrew phonotactics)
can you provide visual examples of these, I learn better when I see examples...

@Dewrad, I quote another conlanger in regards to your critique of my imperatives and causatives:
There are plenty of good reasons to analyze an imperative or causative morpheme as an aspect: It may not be one semantically, but that doesn't mean it can't behave like one morpho-syntactically. For example, if the morpheme cannot co-occur with the "proper" aspects like the inceptive
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by Cúlro »

can you provide visual examples of these, I learn better when I see examples...
Imagine an agglutinating CVC-syllable language with (1) rules on which consonants can form clusters at syllable boundaries (eg stops and liquids can cluster, but stops and stops can't), and (2) where stress is fixed on the final syllable.
In a word like tarok, the o would be stressed. If a suffix (eg plural, or a verb tense) was added, forming tarokim, the o would no longer be stressed as it is no longer final - the i, now final, is stressed.
If unstressed vowels were to delete at some point in the future of this language, that would leave trok and tarkim. Note how the three consonants t r k appear in different positions - a cluster of tr and a single k in one form, and a single t and a cluster of rk in the other. The changing stress patterns change which vowels delete, and thus which of the three consonants appear as clusters and which have vowels between them.
This is the basic origin of the 3 consonant system - because different vowels can delete from between them, it's only the consonants that remain constant between all forms (and at that, not even their placement stays constant) - trok and tarkim have no segments in common except the three consonants. This could be represented as CCoC and CaCCim
Now imagine what would happen to a word takok - it would be suffixed to become takokim. But now when the unstressed vowels delete, you would get the illegal cluster *tk: takok :> *tkok. The vowel wouldn't delete, and so you'd have the pair takok and takkim - ie CaCoC and CaCCim.
So the same morphological form (a suffixed -im) gives rise to two different patterns:
CCoC and CaCCim
CaCoC and CaCCim
Alternately, the vowel could delete, and an epenthetic vowel (maybe echoing the main vowel) would be added before the cluster: otkok - there are different strategies possible to deal with such illegal clusters.
As well as simple deletion, affix vowels can cause vowels in the stem to change quality - eg the i in the suffix could cause the previous vowel in the stem to raise or front:
tarok+-im :> tarokim :> tarkim (clusters block the vowel change)
takok+-im :> takokim :> takkim :> tekkim (geminate consonants don't block the vowel change)
This leaves you with CCoC ~ CaCCim and CaCoC ~ CeCCim as two different pairs of surface forms for the same morphological category (eg singular ~ plural pairs), based solely on which consonants are present. If the second two consonants were unable to form a legal cluster some other repair strategy would be required, leading to another surface form.

What you need to make it work is a system of affixes that cause both the stressed syllable to change, and vowel qualities in the stem to change (ablaut). Then you need deletion of as many unstressed vowels as possible, and rules to cope with all the possible consonant clusters that could arise as a result - that could be vowels not deleted to avoid the cluster forming (in which case the deletion could be shifted to a neighbouring vowel), or one or both of the consonants could assimilate in some way to form a legal cluster (eg -n+p- :> -mp- or -mb-.) If you plan how this happened in the parent language, you'll get a much more detailed, richer and realistic system.

Richness in the triconsonantal daughter language can come from richness in affixes in the parent (different affixes for different genders of nouns or classes of verbs etc) and phonotactics - which clusters are allowed and how the language repairs illegal ones.


Hope this helps.

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Post by Click »

Ahzoh wrote:@Dewrad, I quote another conlanger in regards to your critique of my imperatives and causatives:
There are plenty of good reasons to analyze an imperative or causative morpheme as an aspect: It may not be one semantically, but that doesn't mean it can't behave like one morpho-syntactically. For example, if the morpheme cannot co-occur with the "proper" aspects like the inceptive
I’ve come here to kick ass and clear out some stuff.

Yeah, there are plenty of reasons to analyse an imperative or a causative morpheme as an aspect instead of its expected grammatical category, but there was no way for Dewrad to guess that because you didn’t lay out any such reasons, and moreover I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t think of such an explanation if Micamo didn’t jump in and assume a possible explanation.

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Post by Dewrad »

Ahzoh wrote:@Dewrad, I quote another conlanger in regards to your critique of my imperatives and causatives:
There are plenty of good reasons to analyze an imperative or causative morpheme as an aspect: It may not be one semantically, but that doesn't mean it can't behave like one morpho-syntactically. For example, if the morpheme cannot co-occur with the "proper" aspects like the inceptive
Without seeing the original context of this quotation, I'm afraid I can't call bullshit on the general veracity of this statement (though I'm tempted). Regardless, when you don't really understand how aspects work, this is dumb advice to take.
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Post by Ngohe »

The quotation is from this CCB thread.

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Post by Hallow XIII »

The criticism, of course, is not so much "you're not copying Semitic enough" as much as it is "you haven't the faintest idea what you're doing, look here's how your inspiration does it". The advice to diverge is a good one, but the intermediate step of having an idea about things is missing here.
Ahzoh wrote: I am still confused... :?
I thought it would be unnatural if the verb system was inconsistent (e.g present singular CeCoC, future singular aCCeC, but causative has iCaCCe for singular present and CuCiC for future singular)
This here ties in directly with:
Why would I have to explain triconsonantal root origins when other people who make 3con root languages don't? What makes you think mine is any different to how a semitic 3con root developed?
The thing is that if you're actually shooting for a naturalistic language, you're not going to be able to get past the diachronics. Round succinctly put this in his analysis of Kayardild morphosyntax -- in which I cannot now find the quote because that's how it goes, but it was to the effect of "a comprehensive analysis of a language's morphosyntax and phonology must necessarily include some reference to diachronics". And for some things this is simply truer than for others -- an extremely regular agglutinative language would perhaps only need such references at the level of the lexicon to explain idiosyncratic lexicalizations of certain affixes.

On the other hand you have a feature such as "triconsonantal roots" (and I put the word in scare quotes because the term is not, in my opinion, particularly accurate and probably responsible for a lot of misconceptions about the whole affair): pervasive, irregular, nonconcatenative morphology traceable (at least in the natlangs that have it) to time depths of several thousands of years. If you're going to end up with a system that makes sense it's clear that you're going to have to put a lot of effort into the diachronics to have it make sense; but by extension this also entails a lot of irregularity and idiosyncrasies (with wildly differing results in sister languages if you should want to do that).
Vardelm wrote:If not, it seems like a tall order to have someone explain it in their conlang.
Unless you're copying Semitic exactly (and even then, really), it absolutely is, and it will be remembered that I have already said so. Really if you absolutely want a triconsonantal language you're much better off doing it as an engelang or an artlang of some sort, which are significantly less tall orders (although both will still require a certain amount of linguistic knowledge; it's like an artificial landscape versus a technical map of it versus an impressionistic painting of one -- three quite different design specs, but they all have in common that if the best thing you can do when engaging in pictorial arts is slathering a stickman onto a canvas with watercolor then you're not going to get very far with any of them).

P.S. Even if my post should have depressed you to the point that you plan to give up the project, by all means do read the things Dewrad has linked to. It can only do you good.
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Post by Pazmivaniye »

To be a bit more uplifting than Hallow, I would say that you don't necessarily need to give up on making a naturalistic non-concatenative language, but you should save it until you've had more experience with diachronics. It took me years of conlanging to understand language evolution well enough to be able to invent the kinds of processes a project like this would require. Do some diachronic practice (make sketches, work on other naturalistic conlangs) and read, and it'll make more sense to you.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Pazmivaniye wrote:To be a bit more uplifting than Hallow, I would say that you don't necessarily need to give up on making a naturalistic non-concatenative language, but you should save it until you've had more experience with diachronics. It took me years of conlanging to understand language evolution well enough to be able to invent the kinds of processes a project like this would require. Do some diachronic practice (make sketches, work on other naturalistic conlangs) and read, and it'll make more sense to you.
Considering my obsession/fixation on this linguistic aspect and my impatience, I simply cannot wait years... I must work on it now...
I just need information, and examples.

It seems the best approach to this is to make it an agglutanating language and proceed to vowel deletion/other diachronics.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by KathTheDragon »

Anyone happen to have an alternative download for Comrie's Aspect? I can't get it through the link provided by Uz-Translations, and naturally, the Google Books preview is rather inadequate.

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Post by *Ceresz »

KathAveara wrote:Anyone happen to have an alternative download for Comrie's Aspect? I can't get it through the link provided by Uz-Translations, and naturally, the Google Books preview is rather inadequate.
Here ya go.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

KathAveara wrote:Anyone happen to have an alternative download for Comrie's Aspect? I can't get it through the link provided by Uz-Translations, and naturally, the Google Books preview is rather inadequate.
I got the PDF stored o my box.net account, supppose I could share the link...
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by KathTheDragon »

Tanky muchly!

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Post by Dewrad »

Ngohe wrote:The quotation is from this CCB thread.
Hrm, OK. In context, I'm not sure how helpful that is beyond "don't listen to the nasty man". I can, however, kind of see where we're going with this.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that categories don't neccessarily have discrete markers, and that not all categories neccessarily obtain in every combination (this, for what it's worth, is well worth noting in general). A good example here is pretty close to home: modern colloquial French: in the spoken language the verb marks four distinct moods synthetically: the indicative, the subjunctive, the conditional and the imperative; as well as three tenses: the present, past and future (the latter known as the "imperfect tense"). However, the full range of moods is only seen in the present tense: there's no past or future subjunctive, no past conditional, no future imperative. Furthermore, the conditional mood is marked in the same way as the future tense. However, that doesn't make the conditional a "tense"- it remains a mood, no matter what high school French teachers will try to tell you. In the same way, your reflexive and causative are still voices, they are not aspects, even if they are marked in the same "slot" (as it were) as the aspects. Something to note here is that a language will often find analytic ways of "filling the gaps": in the French case, by means of auxiliary verbs. So in your language, you might mark a reflexive perfect with the main verb in the reflexive and an auxiliary marked for the perfect aspect (or vice versa).

Either way, I would still recommend re-thinking your entire aspectual system. It feels too kitchen-sinky.

That thread does raise a good point, however: "not like Semitic" is going to be difficult, as our only examples of this kind of non-concatenative morphology are really found in Semitic and its relatives. If you want to avoid making a Semitoclone, but still retaining some realism, have a look at some of Semitic's sister branches. The Coptic verbal system in particular kicks so much ass it hurts.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Risla »

I have to say, that even though you seem frustrated all of the criticism being directed at you, you're actually pretty lucky in this regard---it's not common for people to take this much interest in a language, and certainly not common for people to expend energy to rip it apart and try to help you improve it!

Otherwise, since people are mentioning uz-translations, I just want to swoop in and say that http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/ is a similarly fantastic source for linguistics books (as well as books on tons of other topics), and tends to be much more reliable than uz-translations.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Dewrad wrote:
Ngohe wrote:The quotation is from this CCB thread.
Hrm, OK. In context, I'm not sure how helpful that is beyond "don't listen to the nasty man". I can, however, kind of see where we're going with this.

I think the point that is trying to be made is that categories don't neccessarily have discrete markers, and that not all categories neccessarily obtain in every combination (this, for what it's worth, is well worth noting in general). A good example here is pretty close to home: modern colloquial French: in the spoken language the verb marks four distinct moods synthetically: the indicative, the subjunctive, the conditional and the imperative; as well as three tenses: the present, past and future (the latter known as the "imperfect tense"). However, the full range of moods is only seen in the present tense: there's no past or future subjunctive, no past conditional, no future imperative. Furthermore, the conditional mood is marked in the same way as the future tense. However, that doesn't make the conditional a "tense"- it remains a mood, no matter what high school French teachers will try to tell you. In the same way, your reflexive and causative are still voices, they are not aspects, even if they are marked in the same "slot" (as it were) as the aspects. Something to note here is that a language will often find analytic ways of "filling the gaps": in the French case, by means of auxiliary verbs. So in your language, you might mark a reflexive perfect with the main verb in the reflexive and an auxiliary marked for the perfect aspect (or vice versa).

Either way, I would still recommend re-thinking your entire aspectual system. It feels too kitchen-sinky.

That thread does raise a good point, however: "not like Semitic" is going to be difficult, as our only examples of this kind of non-concatenative morphology are really found in Semitic and its relatives. If you want to avoid making a Semitoclone, but still retaining some realism, have a look at some of Semitic's sister branches. The Coptic verbal system in particular kicks so much ass it hurts.
My current problem is whether I have to make a complete new mother language to give a diachronic (historical?) starting point to the development of this language...

I thought about getting rid of the Inchoative and Cessative. Another issue is that I don't want a large amount of modal/auxiliary verbs, they seem too Germanic and I fear they remind me of English...
"not like Semitic" is going to be difficult, as our only examples of this kind of non-concatenative morphology are really found in Semitic and its relatives.
Where there's a will, there's a way.
I've only got three goals for my languages:
  • it is naturalistic
  • takes after a style of a language, but doesn't clone it (in this case, Semitic)
  • will actually be spoken by people in real-life
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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