Sound Change Quickie Thread
- KathTheDragon
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Since I now have an answer, yes. Armenian seems to have had hw > ʍ > kʍ > kʰ, so you could feasibly either continue that as kʰ > x (cf. Modern Greek, iirc) or instead do ʍ > xʍ > x.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Perfect, thanks. My conlang already has aspirates, but the second change would work perfectly.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
That seems entirely probable. Diachronically, this would likely look like [k g] > [c ɟ] > [tʃ dʒ] > [ts dz]. Something to think about: are there other instances of [ts dz] (or [tʃ dʒ] etc. if you want to go that route) which /k g/ might then merge with before front vowels?Mugitus wrote:I'm newer to conlanging, so I hope i don't say something completely implausible, but anyway is it plausible for [ts] and [dz] to be allophones of velar consonants before front vowels? Thanks in advance!
Also: this is why we have soft C. All Cs in Latin represented the same sound /k/, but before front vowels it changed in much the way I described above, then on to [s z], as in English <center> /'sen.tɹ/ (a borrowing from the French <centre>, now pronounced /sɑ̃tʁ/).
(aka vbegin)
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I don't see why not. Didn't Spanish /θ/ derive from older [ts], which itself came from [k] before or [e]?Mugitus wrote:I'm newer to conlanging, so I hope i don't say something completely implausible, but anyway is it plausible for [ts] and [dz] to be allophones of velar consonants before front vowels? Thanks in advance!
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
or ʍ → x since the sounds are very similar. you don't have to make it difficult or add in extra stages all the time, you know.KathAveara wrote:Since I now have an answer, yes. Armenian seems to have had hw > ʍ > kʍ > kʰ, so you could feasibly either continue that as kʰ > x (cf. Modern Greek, iirc) or instead do ʍ > xʍ > x.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
That works even better.finlay wrote:or ʍ → x since the sounds are very similar. you don't have to make it difficult or add in extra stages all the time, you know.KathAveara wrote:Since I now have an answer, yes. Armenian seems to have had hw > ʍ > kʍ > kʰ, so you could feasibly either continue that as kʰ > x (cf. Modern Greek, iirc) or instead do ʍ > xʍ > x.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
In languages with both implosives and modal voiced stops, which series is most likely to lenite, or is there any sort of tendency one way or another?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Define "lenite"?
Implosives are not obstruents, so if you wanted fricativization, the modal voiced stops are a better bet for that. OTOH if you wanted lenition towards sonorants, the implosives are a better starting place (ɓ > m, ɗ > l etc.) You can find examples of voiced stops going to sonorants in plenty of languages but that almost always involves a fricativ intermediate stage and no implosives hanging around.
Implosives are not obstruents, so if you wanted fricativization, the modal voiced stops are a better bet for that. OTOH if you wanted lenition towards sonorants, the implosives are a better starting place (ɓ > m, ɗ > l etc.) You can find examples of voiced stops going to sonorants in plenty of languages but that almost always involves a fricativ intermediate stage and no implosives hanging around.
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
A quick question since I'm finally trying to settle down with the sound history of Kišta. Suppose that there's a change of Vi sequences to plain long vowels VV with optional fronting or raising but this change doesn't happen for all vowels. Is this type of a straightening generally more likely to happen for [low vowel]+i or [high vowel]+i sequences?
- WeepingElf
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I think the latter. /ei/ > /e:/ seems more common to me than /ai/ > /a:/, though the latter is attested, too.gach wrote:A quick question since I'm finally trying to settle down with the sound history of Kišta. Suppose that there's a change of Vi sequences to plain long vowels VV with optional fronting or raising but this change doesn't happen for all vowels. Is this type of a straightening generally more likely to happen for [low vowel]+i or [high vowel]+i sequences?
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yep, it's well possible throughout the vowel space. I just want to make it a partial sound change and would be interested to learn what are its statistics for happening for different base vowels.
Basically this is a question of developing the vowel /ø/ in stressed syllables from *oi and whether it will appear in the inherited lexicon only in the diphthong öi or as a long vowel öö.
Basically this is a question of developing the vowel /ø/ in stressed syllables from *oi and whether it will appear in the inherited lexicon only in the diphthong öi or as a long vowel öö.
- GreenBowTie
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
/oi/ /ø:/ and /oi/ /øi/ both seem pretty reasonable to me though the latter seems likely to turn into /øy/
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
And in tact they are both attested in various dialects of English.WeepingElf wrote:I think the latter. /ei/ > /e:/ seems more common to me than /ai/ > /a:/, though the latter is attested, too.gach wrote:A quick question since I'm finally trying to settle down with the sound history of Kišta. Suppose that there's a change of Vi sequences to plain long vowels VV with optional fronting or raising but this change doesn't happen for all vowels. Is this type of a straightening generally more likely to happen for [low vowel]+i or [high vowel]+i sequences?
I know regressive assimilations are more common, but is it plausible for a nasal to assimilate in place to an obstruent on its left, as in [tm] → [tn]?
Also, how to make [tn] eventually become [nd]? Perhaps [tn] → [nˀ] → [nd]?
- Nortaneous
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
German has place assimilation for -en but that's a special case, basically a weird reversed preinitial
it's too bad it doesn't have a Tibetan-style script to leave people confused a dozen or two centuries from now
it's too bad it doesn't have a Tibetan-style script to leave people confused a dozen or two centuries from now
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
The former seems fine to me, since nasals are on the whole more prone to assimilation than oral stops. As for the latter, I would imagine that it would depend on what position in the word we're talking about. Glottalized nasals are more commonly preglottalized than postglottalized, so I'm not sure about the sequence of changes you propose, but word-initially you might have [tn] lose the initial stop, before undergoing fortition to [nd]. Of course, in that case other instances of initial [n] would become prenasalized stops as well, regardless of whether or not they were prestopped.Click wrote:I know regressive assimilations are more common, but is it plausible for a nasal to assimilate in place to an obstruent on its left, as in [tm] → [tn]?
Also, how to make [tn] eventually become [nd]? Perhaps [tn] → [nˀ] → [nd]?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
If /c ɟ ç ʝ/ → /t͜ɕ d͜ʑ ɕ ʑ/, what could happen to /cc ɟɟ/?
- Pogostick Man
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
The obvious choice is long affricates. If you want to have those long affricates lenite to long (or plain) fricatives that might be possible too.zyxw59 wrote:If /c ɟ ç ʝ/ → /t͜ɕ d͜ʑ ɕ ʑ/, what could happen to /cc ɟɟ/?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I guess then my question is, how exactly are long affricates realized? Is the stop part lengthened, the fricative part lengthened, or both?
- Pogostick Man
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I'm not sure what the tendency is cross-linguistically. I think I typically pronounce them extending the stop.zyxw59 wrote:I guess then my question is, how exactly are long affricates realized? Is the stop part lengthened, the fricative part lengthened, or both?
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- Pogostick Man
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
/s/, /ʃ/, debuccalize it into /h/, maybe have it conditionally turn into /l/.Mugitus wrote:Any idea of what I could turn /ɬ/ into?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
IIRC it became /S/ in many Semitic languages.Mugitus wrote:Any idea of what I could turn /ɬ/ into?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
If you believe it was a part of Proto Algonquian's phonology, then /n/, /θ/, and /t/ are some acceptable reflexes.Mugitus wrote:Any idea of what I could turn /ɬ/ into?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Earlier in this thread it was suggested that /ɬ/ could become /ħ/ by way of /ɬˤ/.Mugitus wrote:Any idea of what I could turn /ɬ/ into?