Ercunich Scratchpad [feat. expanded verb paradigm]

[Bristel]

This is probably the project I've worked on the most, but I'm still not 100 percent certain on a lot of things, like sound changes, heimat of the conlang's speakers and lots of other things.

There are a lot of similarities with Old Irish, in my opinion, but there isn't a system of initial consonant mutations. I guess that would make it a bit more like Gaulish, then? (I didn't follow theorized isoglosses when choosing sound changes, though)

Phonology:

/b t d k g/ <b t d c g>
/m n ɲ/ <m n ñ>
/v θ ð s z x ɣ/ <v th dh s z ch gh>
/r l j/ <r l y w>
(like in Irish /p/ may occur in loanwords from Latin, or other languages)

/a e i o u/ <a e i o u>
/aː eː iː oː/ <á é í ó>
/au oi/ <au oi>
(there are other two vowel segments, but are considered vowels in hiatus, i.e. /eoː/ /oːi/

Sound changes: (not in chronological order, working on tweaking that, maybe)

ɸ → Ø/_ (ɸatīr → aθʲīr)
ɸ → x/_s,t (seɸtam → sextam → sext)
b → v/V_V (abankos → avank)
b → m/_n (Dubnowalos → Dumval)
b → b/_ (bekos → bek)
t → θ/V_V (mātīr → maːθʲiːr)
t → t/_ (trīs → trʲiː)
ts → θ/_ (karants → karanθ)
d → ð/V_V (roudos → ruːð)
d → d/_ (dānos → daːn)
ds →ð/_ (ad-sād-jos → aðaːiðʲ)
k → x/V_V (drukos → drux)
k → k/_ (kantom → kant)
kʷ → k/ (kʷid → kʲid)
g → ɣ/V_V (rīganīs → rʲiɣainʲ)
gn → ɲ/_
g → k/_s (rigs → rʲik)
g → g/_ (dergos → derg)
gʷ → g/_C (gʷrātus → graːθ)
gʷ → w/_ (gʷano- → wano-)
s → ʃ/_i,ī,j (Windoseibaros → vʲinoʃiːvar)
s/Vs → Ø/_# (marwos → marv)
s → s/_ (sūlis → soːilʲ)
m → v/V_V (ɸlāmā → laːvaː)
m/Vm → Ø/_# (mratom → braθ)
m → m/_ (makkʷos → max)
mr → br/_ (mratom → braθ)
ml → bl/_ (mlixtus → blicht)
Vn → Ø/ (nawan → nav)
n → n/_ (benā → benaː)
nd → nn/_
l → l/_ (loutus → loːθ)
r → r/_ (mori → moirʲ)
j → Ø/#_ (juwankos → uvank)
j → j/V_V
j, i, iː →Cʲ/C_ (tritjos → trʲitʲ)
wl → l/_ (wlatis = laθʲ)
TL → LT[+voice]/V_V (saitlos- → soild-)
Cː → C/_ (makkʷos → max)
dC → C/_ (ad-kʷis-os → ak-kis →akʲis)
xs → s/_ (laxsaros → lassar → lasar)

a → a/_
aː → aː/_
e → e/_
iː → iː/_
o → o/_
u → u/_
uː → oː/_
i → i/_
ai → oi/_
ei → iː/_
oi → eː/_
au → au/_
ou → oː/_

Nouns:

*makkʷos o-stem "son" masc.

Code: Select all

singular
NOM mach
VOC mache
ACC mach
GEN machí
DAT machói
ABL machó
INS machó
LOC machí

dual
NOM machó
VOC machó
ACC machó
GEN machó
DAT machóv
ABL machóiv
INS machóiv
LOC machó

plural
NOM maché
VOC machó
ACC machó
GEN mach
DAT machóv
ABL machóiv
INS machó
LOC machoiv

Verbs:

*ber- "to carry, to wear, to bear"

Code: Select all

present active indicative
1.sg beró (mi)
2.sg bereish
3.sg bereith
1.pl berovu (sní)
2.pl berethe
3.pl beroint

That's all I have for now, I'll add more details later on other nouns.
Questions or comments?

[WeepingElf]

Looks good so far. Where do you fancy it to have been spoken?

[linguoboy]

So an acute represents length? Where's the stress, if any? (And if not, what's the prosody like?)

[Bristel]

So an acute represents length? Where's the stress, if any? (And if not, what's the prosody like?)

Yes, acute is length. (like the Irish síneadh fada)

It's difficult to tell where stress was in the proto-language, if anyone has info on where it was in Old Irish or elsewhere, I might modify it later, or just say it's "ante-penult" and be over it. (HA. HA. ESPERANTO!)

Looks good so far. Where do you fancy it to have been spoken?

I fancy them to be heavy traders located somewhere near the British Isles, but centralized in a place that allows them to spread (and pick up influences from Latin and maybe Greek or Germanic. Maybe Armorica is a good location? Seems to be near enough to the British Isles, has a lot of local tribal names I can borrow and/or make up something similar for the tribe name that speaks this language…

I went through every Proto-Celtic root I could find to flesh out this conlang, but I know many roots were not used in Continental Celtic or vice versa in Insular Celtic. I think I'm going to suspend realism and say "they were everywhere and picked up lots of words".

I'm really disliking how I kept /v/ in words like cetvar "four", I think it looks fine in words like garv "course, rough" and aval "apple" though. But I think it makes it look a little different from the other Celtlangs.

I'm also really proud of metathesis in this conlang, when an unvoiced stop precedes a liquid like /l r/ they switch places, and since the final sounds in the language usually drop in NOM, words like futros "ill, sick" become urd, instead of like othar in Old Irish. (But there are a few cases in which they still have an epenthetic /a/ like Old Irish, just fewer roots do that.

[hwhatting]

What we know about stress in Celtic:
Old Irish - Initial
Brythonic - penultimate; it has been speculated that this replaced earlier initial stress, but I've seen no supporting evidence for that
Continental Celtic - not much is known. I recently quoted Lambert's summary of the available Information on Gaulish stress on my blog, with some coments added. Short version - there's some evidence for antepenult and at least one case where it was seemingly Initial.

Your lang certainly looks like something that could have been spoken somewhere on the continent.

[Bristel]

What we know about stress in Celtic:
Old Irish - Initial
Brythonic - penultimate; it has been speculated that this replaced earlier initial stress, but I've seen no supporting evidence for that
Continental Celtic - not much is known. I recently quoted Lambert's summary of the available Information on Gaulish stress on my blog, with some coments added. Short version - there's some evidence for antepenult and at least one case where it was seemingly Initial.

Your lang certainly looks like something that could have been spoken somewhere on the continent.

I was thinking of somewhere in Northern or Central Gaul, but I haven't made up my mind. I want to have a lot of influence from other languages especially in later stages, so I don't know where to put it.

I think that I'll stick with antepenultimate stress, or possible penultimate in some cases tbd.

[Bristel]

I thought about using the Volcae, of which there are some historical details written about them, and since my last name is Hawk (*wolkās might have meant 'hawk', if not 'wolf', see Welsh gwalch.)

But doing that means that I move the tribe far east into Germania, although it might make it easier for my con people to be traders (I think I would rather have them be long distance maritime traders though, somewhere from Armorica).

[Bristel]

More declensions!

I think the strangest of these are the nasal stems and the r-stems, especially athír and máthír, the NOM and GEN forms are athír / ard and máthír / márd which is due to the TL > LD metathesis and voicing sound change

Code: Select all

o-stems
*dūnom “stronghold, fortified town” (neuter)

singular
NOM dón
VOC dón
ACC dón
GEN dóní
DAT dónói
ABL dónó
INS dónó
LOC dóní

dual
NOM dónó
VOC dónó
ACC dónó
GEN dónó
DAT dónov
ABL dónoiv
INS dónoiv
LOC dónó

plural
NOM dóná
VOC dóná
ACC dóná
GEN dón
DAT dónov
ABL dónoiv
INS dónó
LOC dónoiv

ā-stems
*ɸlāmā “hand” (feminine)

singular
NOM lává
VOC lává
ACC lává
GEN lává
DAT lávái
ABL láví
INS láví
LOC lávái

dual
NOM lávoi
VOC lávoi
ACC lávoi
GEN lávoyó
DAT láváv
ABL láváiv
INS láváiv
LOC láváiv

plural
NOM lává
VOC lává
ACC lává
GEN láv
DAT láváv
ABL láváiv
INS láváiv
LOC láváiv

*wolkās “hawk” (masculine)

singular
NOM volcá
VOC volcá
ACC volcá
GEN volcá
DAT volcái
ABL volcí
INS volcí
LOC volcái

dual
NOM volcoi
VOC volcoi
ACC volcoi
GEN volcoyó
DAT volcáv
ABL volcáiv
INS volcáiv
LOC volcáiv





plural
NOM volcá
VOC volcá
ACC volcá
GEN volc
DAT volcáv
ABL volcáiv
INS volcáiv
LOC volcáiv

i-stems
*sūlis ‘sight, view, eye’ (feminine)

singular
NOM sóil
VOC sóil
ACC sóil
GEN sólí
DAT sólí
ABL sólí
INS sólí
LOC sólí

dual
NOM sóil
VOC sóil
ACC sóil
GEN sólyó
DAT sóliv
ABL sóliv
INS sóliv
LOC sóliv

plural
NOM sólí
VOC sólí
ACC sólí
GEN sóil
DAT sóliv
ABL sóliv
INS sóliv
LOC sóliv




*mori “body of water, sea” (neuter)

singular
NOM moir
VOC moir
ACC moir
GEN morí
DAT morí
ABL morí
INS morí
LOC morí

dual
NOM morí
VOC morí
ACC morí
GEN moryó
DAT moriv
ABL moriv
INS moriv
LOC moriv

plural
NOM moryá
VOC moryá
ACC moryá
GEN moir
DAT moriv
ABL moriv
INS moriv
LOC moriv

u-stems

*bitus “world, existence” (masculine)

singular
NOM bith
VOC bith
ACC bith
GEN bithó
DAT bithó
ABL bithó
INS bithó
LOC bithó

dual
NOM bithó
VOC bithó
ACC bithó
GEN bithovó
DAT bithuv
ABL bithuiv
INS bithuiv
LOC bithuiv

plural
NOM bithov
VOC bithov
ACC bithó
GEN bithov
DAT bithuv
ABL bithuiv
INS bithuiv
LOC bithuiv

*dānu “valley river” (neuter)

singular
NOM dán
VOC dán
ACC dán
GEN dánó
DAT dánó
ABL dánó
INS dánó
LOC dánó

dual
NOM dánó
VOC dánó
ACC dánó
GEN dánovó
DAT dánuv
ABL dánuiv
INS dánuiv
LOC dánuiv





plural
NOM dánvá
VOC dánvá
ACC dánvá
GEN dánov
DAT dánuv
ABL dánuiv
INS dánuiv
LOC dánuiv

velar/dental stems

*rīgs “king” (masculine)

singular
NOM ríx
VOC ríx
ACC rígh
GEN rígh
DAT ríghí
ABL ríghí
INS rígh
LOC rígh

dual
NOM rígh
VOC rígh
ACC rígh
GEN ríghó
DAT ríghov
ABL ríghoiv
INS ríghoiv
LOC ríghoiv

plural
NOM rígh
VOC rígh
ACC ríghá
GEN rígh
DAT ríghov
ABL ríghoiv
INS ríghoiv
LOC ríghoiv



*druwits “druid” (masculine)

singular
NOM druvith
VOC druvith
ACC druvidh
GEN druvidh
DAT druvidhí
ABL druvidhí
INS druvidh
LOC druvidh

dual
NOM druvidh
VOC druvidh
ACC druvidh
GEN druvidhó
DAT druvidhov
ABL druvidhoiv
INS druvidhoiv
LOC druvidhoiv

plural
NOM druvidh
VOC druvidh
ACC druvidhá
GEN druvidh
DAT druvidhov
ABL druvidhoiv
INS druvidhoiv
LOC druvidhoiv

*karnuxs “carnyx horn” (masculine)

singular
NOM carnux
VOC carnux
ACC carnuch
GEN carnuch
DAT carnuchí
ABL carnuchí
INS carnuch
LOC carnuich



dual
NOM carnuch
VOC carnuch
ACC carnuch
GEN carnuchó
DAT carnuchov
ABL carnuchoiv
INS carnuchoiv
LOC carnuichoiv

plural
NOM carnuch
VOC carnuch
ACC carnuchá
GEN carnuch
DAT carnuchov
ABL carnuchoiv
INS carnuchoiv
LOC carnuichoiv

*karants “friend” (masculine)

singular
NOM caranth
VOC caranth
ACC caranth
GEN caranth
DAT caranthí
ABL caranthí
INS caranth
LOC carainth

dual
NOM caranth
VOC caranth
ACC caranth
GEN caranthó
DAT caranthov
ABL caranthoiv
INS caranthoiv
LOC carainthoiv





plural
NOM caranth
VOC caranth
ACC caranthá
GEN caranth
DAT caranthov
ABL caranthoiv
INS caranthoiv
LOC caranthoiv

nasal stems

*abū “river” (feminine)

singular
NOM avó
VOC avó
ACC avon
GEN avon
DAT avoní
ABL avoní
INS avon
LOC avoin

dual
NOM avon
VOC avon
ACC avon
GEN avonó
DAT abnov
ABL abnoiv
INS abnoiv
LOC abnoiv

plural
NOM avon
VOC avon
ACC avoná
GEN avon
DAT abnov
ABL abnoiv
INS abnoiv
LOC abnoiv



*anman “name” (neuter)

singular
NOM anuv
VOC anuv
ACC anuvan
GEN anuvan
DAT anuvaní
ABL anuvaní
INS anuvan
LOC anuvain

dual
NOM anuvan
VOC anuvan
ACC anuvan
GEN anuvanó
DAT anuvanov
ABL anuvanoiv
INS anuvanoiv
LOC anuvanoiv

plural
NOM anuvan
VOC anuvan
ACC anuvaná
GEN anuvan
DAT anuvanov
ABL anuvanoiv
INS anuvanoiv
LOC anuvanoiv

s-stems

*tegos “house” (masculine)

singular
NOM tegh
VOC tegh
ACC teghes
GEN teghes
DAT tegheshí
ABL tegheshí
INS teghes
LOC tegheish

dual
NOM teghes
VOC teghes
ACC teghes
GEN teghesó
DAT teghesov
ABL teghesoiv
INS teghesoiv
LOC teghesoiv

plural
NOM teghes
VOC teghes
ACC teghesá
GEN teghes
DAT teghesov
ABL teghesoiv
INS teghesoiv
LOC teghesoiv

r-stems

*ɸatīr “father” (masculine)

singular
NOM athír
VOC athír
ACC ather
GEN ard
DAT ardí
ABL ardí
INS ard
LOC aird

dual
NOM ather
VOC ather
ACC ather
GEN ardó
DAT ardev
ABL ardeiv
INS ardeiv
LOC ardeiv



plural
NOM ather
VOC ather
ACC atherá
GEN ard
DAT ardev
ABL ardeiv
INS ardeiv
LOC ardeiv

*mātīr “mother” (feminine)

singular
NOM máthír
VOC máthír
ACC máther
GEN márd
DAT márdí
ABL márdí
INS márd
LOC máird

dual
NOM máther
VOC máther
ACC máther
GEN márdó
DAT márdev
ABL márdeiv
INS márdeiv
LOC márdeiv

plural
NOM máther
VOC máther
ACC mátherá
GEN márd
DAT márdev
ABL márdeiv
INS márdeiv
LOC márdeiv

[Civil War Bugle]

I'm really disliking how I kept /v/ in words like cetvar "four", I think it looks fine in words like garv "course, rough" and aval "apple" though. But I think it makes it look a little different from the other Celtlangs.

I am pro this conlang for essentially this reason (not that I am knowledgeable about celtic languages in detail but still.)

[hwhatting]

But doing that means that I move the tribe far east into Germania, although it might make it easier for my con people to be traders (I think I would rather have them be long distance maritime traders though, somewhere from Armorica).

Put them in Germany! The Celts in Germany get too little love from conlangers; everyone and their dog do insular mutation monsters or surviving Gauls.

[WeepingElf]

But doing that means that I move the tribe far east into Germania, although it might make it easier for my con people to be traders (I think I would rather have them be long distance maritime traders though, somewhere from Armorica).

Put them in Germany! The Celts in Germany get too little love from conlangers; everyone and their dog do insular mutation monsters or surviving Gauls.

Yeah! A Celtic language in southern Germany is still missing. I hereby invite Bristel to join the League of Lost Languages.

[Bristel]

I'm really disliking how I kept /v/ in words like cetvar "four", I think it looks fine in words like garv "course, rough" and aval "apple" though. But I think it makes it look a little different from the other Celtlangs.

I am pro this conlang for essentially this reason (not that I am knowledgeable about celtic languages in detail but still.)

I'll think about the Cv clusters as a happy accident then.

But doing that means that I move the tribe far east into Germania, although it might make it easier for my con people to be traders (I think I would rather have them be long distance maritime traders though, somewhere from Armorica).

Put them in Germany! The Celts in Germany get too little love from conlangers; everyone and their dog do insular mutation monsters or surviving Gauls.

OK, you and WeepingElf have convinced me. I think the speakers of this conlang will be Volcae, or at least related. I actually haven't seen many people do Celtic daughterlangs much, or many conlangs with initial consonant mutations anyway… But I understand the point.

Yeah! A Celtic language in southern Germany is still missing. I hereby invite Bristel to join the League of Lost Languages.

Oh awesome, thank you for the invite! I'm definitely interested in joining. I'm not sure if I want to have the language limited by being "unimportant" to the timeline though… Honestly though I think it might be a good idea because then I can just focus on other languages, I've had plenty of research and work on this conlang to make me feel a little more confident in making my own conlangs/conworlds with my own rules.

I'll have to make sure I stick to a direction then, the verbal morphology of Proto-Celtic is so spotty that I'm having trouble determining what the proper forms were for more uncommon moods and tenses. A lot of what is listed is "this was a verb form, but we don't know exactly what it did".

[Bristel]

Was thinking of the ethnonym Ercunoi (Latinate: Hercynii) from *Erkunia which is the name of the Hercynian Forest (the western edge was the Black Forest that stretches eastward from the Rhine (Rín) river).

The word Ercunia seems to derive from *perkʷus 'oak' > *perkuniā.

Ergo, the name of the language might be Ercunich < *erkunikos

[TaylorS]

But doing that means that I move the tribe far east into Germania, although it might make it easier for my con people to be traders (I think I would rather have them be long distance maritime traders though, somewhere from Armorica).

Put them in Germany! The Celts in Germany get too little love from conlangers; everyone and their dog do insular mutation monsters or surviving Gauls.

I find it very odd how quickly the Germanics seem to have had absorbed the Central European Gauls.

[hwhatting]

Was thinking of the ethnonym Ercunoi (Latinate: Hercynii) from *Erkunia which is the name of the Hercynian Forest (the western edge was the Black Forest that stretches eastward from the Rhine (Rín) river).

The word Ercunia seems to derive from *perkʷus 'oak' > *perkuniā.

Ergo, the name of the language might be Ercunich < *erkunikos

That works.

[Bristel]

Here are some simple verbs from Ercunich, other moods and aspects are harder to reconstruct (in fact, some sites give many multiples of reconstructions for several tense paradigms).

Code: Select all

Indicative	Active	Passive
Present		
1s	beró (mi)	berór
2s	bereis	bererdí
3s	bereith	berethor
1p	berovu (sní)	berovor
2p	bereth	beredhav
3p	beroint	berontor
		
Imperfect		
1s	beremnó (mi)	bereithó (mi)
2s	beresó (tu)	bereith
3s	bereth	berethiet
1p	bereveth	berethiveth
2p	bereth (sví)	berethith
3p	berenteth	berethinth
		
Future		
1s	bibrá	bibrár
2s	bibráis	bibrárdí
3s	bibráith	bibráthor
1p	bibráv	bibrávor
2p	bibráth	bibrádhav
3p	bibránt	bibrántor
		
Past		
1s	bertó (mi)	berethór
2s	bert	beretheser
3s	berethó	berethor
1p	bertovó	berothovor
2p	berteth	berethethav
3p	bertont	berethontor
		
Subjunctive		
Present		
1s	berá	berár
2s	beráis	berárdí
3s	beráith	beráthor
1p	beráv	berávor
2p	beráth	berádhav
3p	beráint	berántor
		
Imperative		
Present		
1s	-	-
2s	berí!	bererdí!
3s	beret!	beror!
1p	berov!	berovor!
2p	berethí!	beredhav!
3p	beront!	berontor!

Cuz I didn't want to fiddle with the spacing, the words on the left are active, right are passive, if that wasn't apparent.

[hwhatting]

Is there any reconstruction of the Proto-Celtic verb you base this on, or are you directly going from some reconstruction of the PIE verb? (The t-Preterite looks like your base is some Proto-Celtic, anyway.)

[Bristel]

Is there any reconstruction of the Proto-Celtic verb you base this on, or are you directly going from some reconstruction of the PIE verb? (The t-Preterite looks like your base is some Proto-Celtic, anyway.)

It was mixing the available info on the Wiki page for Proto-Celtic, and this page: https://sites.google.com/site/gmgleadal ... onjugation

It seems that there are multiple forms of the future, perfect and preterite, but I wasn't sure which ones are more appropriate for this conlang.

[hwhatting]

I tried the link, but it didn't work for me.

[Dewrad]

Is there any reconstruction of the Proto-Celtic verb you base this on, or are you directly going from some reconstruction of the PIE verb? (The t-Preterite looks like your base is some Proto-Celtic, anyway.)

It was mixing the available info on the Wiki page for Proto-Celtic, and this page: https://sites.google.com/site/gmgleadal ... onjugation

I would be, uh, cautious with the reconstructions on that page.

[Bristel]

Is there any reconstruction of the Proto-Celtic verb you base this on, or are you directly going from some reconstruction of the PIE verb? (The t-Preterite looks like your base is some Proto-Celtic, anyway.)

It was mixing the available info on the Wiki page for Proto-Celtic, and this page: https://sites.google.com/site/gmgleadal ... onjugation

I would be, uh, cautious with the reconstructions on that page.

Yeah, I just haven't found a proper Proto-Celtic reconstruction… if you have any ideas where I can find a page or book on it, I'd love to see it.

The verb stuff can be changed at any time, this just gives me a good start. (and minor ability to work on TCs)

[R.Rusanov]

all perfect sound changes, no analogy? I'd imagine at least a few of those declensions and conjugations would fall together, unless it's an artlang

[Bristel]

all perfect sound changes, no analogy? I'd imagine at least a few of those declensions and conjugations would fall together, unless it's an artlang

Well, I could make use of analogy, I just have no experience in that part of conlanging.

[Bristel]

There'll probably be a second stage of sound changes, grammar changes, etc. I figure the language is quite conservative initially, but gets heavily analogized pretty quickly, collapsing the case system, possibly eliminating the dual number, etc.

[Bristel]

Working on better sound changes for Ercunic, adding sound changes that occur under stressed/unstressed syllables, and maybe a few more interesting sound changes. So the look with change a bit, and more phonemes will probably exist afterwards. Possibly tense/lax distinction, etc.

But for now, a translation of the Seven Kill Stele.

Nem beroeith nerívághal rentó machont doiné.
Doiné beroeith n’en mathí cid talí neví.
Orgí. Orgí. Orgí. Orgí. Orgí. Orgí. Orgí.
[nem beroeθʲ nerʲiːvaːɣal rentoː maxont donʲeː]
[donʲeː beroeθʲ nen maθʲiː kʲid talʲiː nevʲiː]
[orgʲiː ...]

heaven-NOM carry-3S.PRS not-count-able thing-ACC.PL to.nuture man-NOM.PL
man-NOM.PL carry-3S.PRS not-one good.thing-ACC-PL what pay heaven-GEN
kill-IMP. kill-IMP. kill-IMP. kill-IMP. kill-IMP. kill-IMP. kill-IMP.