YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Cúlro wrote:
Ahzoh wrote: I meant how 1st person surfeit would even be possible... suppose something like "the overwhelming amount of us agree that..."
I know what 1st person is thank you...
I didn't read the second line as being connected to the previous one; I was a little surprised!
Although, yes, I guess that's what a first person surfeit would be - "too many of us." Seems no less likely/useful than the others.
That will require I make entirely new language... complete with grammar rules, a phonology, stuff like that...

Alternatively, maybe I should consult to the collaborative construction of the parent language, and then proceed to do all the neccessary sound changes...

So, it should be CVC right? I should look maybe at Proto-semitic... it looks to be like the parent language you describe...
Well, yes. Everything we know about triconsonantal languages comes basically from Semitic languages. The process I described to you is what happened in Semitic languages. Unless you can think of another diachronic process that could give rise to a triconsonantal languages, you'll have to either mimic that process, or just make up stuff randomly.

CV syllables with optional word final consonants would be best - most scope for deleting things and creating new clusters. CVC syllables mean you'll already have clusters and deleting will be harder.

Biconsonantal roots will appear naturally from words in the parent language with only two consonants.
by what do mean optional final endings??
Ka could end in Kap or Kat or Kak?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Cúlro »

I meant optional in the word structure - some words in the language end in a consonant, some don't. Not the same word

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I've been hard at work in forming root in my proto parent language, and I have a large amount of biliterals, which is a good start.
I made my first triconsonantal root with creation of: šīm (house) + ta (un) :> tašīm (unhouse) :> TŠM (to divorce)

I also made a language family: Hašahkan, which is divided into three subgroups, North, South, and West.

Common Phonetic features:
  • Have at least a voiceless uvular stop or fricative
  • Have at least an uvular trill
  • Have at least voiced/voiceless distinction of velar fricatives (Northern and Southern only)
  • The "main" rhotic is usually an alveolar approximant or a voiced uvular fricative
  • Have at least a lateral fricative
  • Lateral fricative usually as the only *Lateral or as the "main" lateral (Western only)
Yaḻek Hašahki:
Hašahki ṇši ḏa sisyan yu.
Hašahki is a land of contrasts.

Ǧaḏkīl ita ḵavil taʾuqan niḏid.
The Golems do not eat humans.

Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam:
Vṛḵaẕī ʾanšī ʾē sīvhyan ya.
Vṛḵaẕī is a land of contrasts.

Ǧdakal ʾaht ḵaval toʾqam nēyīd.
The Golems do not eat humans.

Common roots:
Golem - ǧdak / ǧaḏki / ǧduk /
Hand - lam / lem / lam /
Branch - zab / zibe / azba /
Wind - ʾal / ila / ayul /
God - hīj / hayji / hij /
Snake - hīt / hit / hit /
House - šīm / šiym / šem /
Land - ʾanšī / ṇši / īnšī /
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I also divide my verbs into active and passive:

Active:
Past - NoCCoC / NūCCoCam
Present - CēCoC / CoCCam
Future - ʾaCCeC / ʾaCCeCam

Passive:
Past - NūCCūC / NīCCaCam
Present - CūCaC / CaCCam
Future - ʾīCCaC / ʾīCCīCam

In total I have about 22 verb forms...
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I made diachronically plausible forms for construct state (singular / plural)

CVraC / CrVCal

ǧdarak / ǧdarkal - golem
šīram / šrīmal - house
laram / lrīmal - hand
hīrat / hrītal - snake
hīraj / hrījal - god
nēraš / nrēšal - peace
zarab / zrībal - branch
čoraḻ / čroḻal - body
ʾaral / hʾralal - wind
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by tiramisu »

I plan to come back and expand on this. It ended up way longer than I anticipated. May contain mistakes at the moment.

I was doing some exploring and was looking through this thread. I'm a year too late, but I have some input. For all I know, this conlang may have been discontinued, but perhaps this will be useful to somebody working on non-concatenative root langs.

First, it needs to be said that I strongly recommend clonelangs for newcomers to non-concatenativity. I think this is helpful for non-newcomers too. But I am a fan of using conlangs to explore new linguistic phenomena (cf. the now archaic term "model language"), so I encourage newcomers especially to risk a venture into shitlangs and to ask for feedback on them, as long as they see it as a learning opportunity and are willing to scrap their conlang altogether. (That is, if Aqmk made a mistake with this thread, it's that he began with an attitude that his conlang was definite, not that he tried and made mistakes.)

My advice for clonelangs:
1) Work from a highly regular and/or synthetic language like Arabic. Don't work from Hebrew. Hebrew is on steroids and will give the average newcomer odd ideas about non-concatenativity. As Winston Churchill once said, "I would let the clever ones learn Arabic as an honor, and Hebrew as a treat." Arabic has many benefits aside from regularity, including its extremely rich lexicon.
2) Keep it simple. Start off with commonly attested linguistic changes, and keep them regular. Getting too complicated will lead to unnatural results. Since vowels are how non-concatenative languages, create regular sound changes for such-and-such vowel in such-and-such environments. Hint: stress, place of articulation of the surrounding consonants, and height/roundedness/frontedness of surrounding nuclei (umlaut) are the typical influences that make a vowel in one word diverge from the same historical vowel in another.
3) If you have trouble not simply recreating an existing Semitlang, and you are uncomfortable with this, look comparatively and historically. Take a look at what other Semitic languages do, and try to figure out the historical development. Lipinski's book on Comparative Semitic Grammar is a great resource for this, because it is meaty, freely available on the internet, and generally well-organized. (Heavily outdated information on Comparative Semitics, but veracity is not important for practicing).

If/when you venture into an a priori non-concatenative lang -- I imagine Aqmk is set on this, at least for this conlang, and I don't discourage it as long as he does not want to flaunt the conlang as realistic -- there should be an entirely different approach.
1) Root creation. Don't limit yourself to a particular method unless this is an experimental goal of the conlang. The truth is that we still aren't sure where Semitic roots came from. There is a popular theory that triconsonantal roots came from tacking an affix onto a biconsonantal root. I think it caught on because we know this has happened in many cases. However, the theory doesn't actually hold much weight among Semitists. Although attested in individual words, it's difficult both to demonstrate and conceive en masse.
My suggestion is actually to create a dummy root, sort out your morphology by plugging in that root, and then go back and create roots. This way you see the big picture, and so can A) determine the most basic morpheme for each root (e.g., in Arabic, this is the 3rd singular masculine stative-perfective) and B) determine the need to create a new root for a certain concept, or if you can derive it using the derivational morphology you've set out.
2) Word derivation. Don't go crazy here. First, create derivational morphemes. Second, create your derivations based on natural languages and check your derivations against theirs. If you don't, you'll probably end up with very contrived derivations -- or worse: way too many roots. For some reason, a lot of people forget that derivation in non-concatenative languages works just like it does in any other language.
3) Grammar and Morphology.
  • It is key that you start simple, which is the main problem with the conlang at hand. You can make your conlang more complex as you develop it, but you cannot start an a realistic a priori conlang with complex grammar. Syntactic noun cases are fine. Gender, person, and number markers are fine. (I do not recommend overlapping gender/person/number/case. Have a separate morpheme for each.) A simple tense system is fine, i.e. two or three tenses or aspects. Stick with only the indicative mood at first. Basic word order is fine. This should be enough to start forming sentences and getting a feel for the structure of the language.
  • Any further work on the grammar should have thought-out considerations for the historical development of the features. This will include reanalysing, reusing, and/or combining existing morphemes in a way that makes sense.
    • [**]Semitic took emphatic particle *ʔan and combined it with pronominal suffixes to create personal pronouns. *ʔan + *-ku > *ʔanku 'I'; *ʔan + *-ta > *ʔanta 'you'; etc.
    • [**]Arabic reanalyzed the Proto-Semitic ending *-ma (> n), which probably signified the headword of a nominal phrase, to be an indefinite marker.
    • [**]Semitic used its causative prefix sa- to mark superlative adjectives as well.
  • Altering the vowels of a stem should be done in consideration of regular phonological processes, such as those mentioned at the end of #2 of the clonelang suggestions. Take a look below at how Hebrew ended up with absolute/construct/pronominal 'states,' which Proto-Semitic didn't differentiate in either stem or syntax:
First, here is the list of the vowel changes in Hebrew, which are heavily dependent on stress. Refer to this list as we examine Hebrew nouns.
*a > a / *C_. (unstressed)
*a > i / *C_C.
*a > ɔ / 'C_. (stressed), C_.' (pretonic)
*a > 0 / propretonic, between primary and secondary stress
*i > i / C_C. (unstressed)
*i > e / *'C_ (stressed), C_.' (pretonic)
*i > ɛ / 'CV(C).C_ (post-tonic)
*i > a / *'C_C (stressed)
*i > 0 / propretonic
*i > 0 / #C_.'CV(C)
*i > ɛ / in the environment of a guttural
*u > 0 / C_ (unstressed)
*u > u, o / C_C (I don't remember off the top of my head what environment governs which result, but it's unimportant for us)
*u > o: / 'C_(C) (stressed)
*0 > ɛ / C._C# (=anaptyxis)
*a,i > ɛ / before sonorants
*V > ɛ / *C_C.C#
*0 > i > *C_C.C

'king'
sg absolute: * 'malk-u > malk > 'malɛk > 'mɛlɛk
sg pronominal: * 'malk-u-ka > 'malk-ka

'fruit'
sg absolute: * 'piry-u > 'piry > pi'riy > pri:
sg pronominal: * 'piry-u-ya > 'piry-y > 'piry-iy > pir'yi:

'blessing'
sg absolute: * ba'rak-at-u > bara'kat > brɔ'kɔt > brɔ'kɔh
sg construct: * ba'rak-at-u + word > bara'kat + word > brkat + 'word > birkat + 'word

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Dude, this particular version of my language is OLD, I have since changed the name many times and developed it more:
http://www.frathwiki.com/%C5%A0arad_Yat ... a%E1%BA%95

Yes I have made all my 376(386?) verb roots with the Biliteral Root Theory in mind...

Where were you when I needed this... I had to figure out most of this by myself...
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by tiramisu »

This is the first time I've seen this thread. I thought about holding back, since I am obviously a gestation period too late, but there was just so damn much that hadn't been said about starting a non-concatenative lang that needed to be said. Maybe instead of giving general advice here, I should start a new thread about how to build a non-concatenative lang, though I feel like it's been done a few times before, so it would probably be in vain.

I haven't looked through the wiki page thoroughly yet -- I'm on my way to bed -- but at quick first glance it looks like a good clean up.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

No, there isn't really a guide on how to make a non-concatenative language, but there is this by Mecislau: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9392
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by tiramisu »

I'll comment on some of this stuff over time, and try to help you work it out so that it is realistic, if you want. If you don't want, that's fine too. I don't want to hijack your conlang, and it is probably a good artlang if you're not going for realistic. (I don't know how to judge artlangs).

Some initial comments:

I could be wrong on this, but it seems your phonology (42 phonemic consonants, 8 phonemic vowels, highly variable syllable structure) would be too complex to develop a consonantal root system. Our theories on how the Semitic system arose require much simpler phonology; high variability, I would think, would block significant internal vowel alteration patterns from emerging. It's true that a consonantal root system could later develop a more complex phonology after it had already become a consonantal root system. But such systems assert significant pressure on phonology to remain simple (and even simplify), and this level of complexity is unlikely to develop. For me, you would need to introduce diachronics to demonstrate how this could be plausible.

How do you distinguish between nominatives in the absolute and singular nouns in construct? Why is the construct caseless? (That is, if you have case, it will be the noun in construct that would demonstrate case, because the noun in the absolute case will be preoccupied with genitivity). Why are the plurals of the construct different from the singular? This is, of course, plausible, but I'm not sure I can conceive of a case where this would happen and its syntactical relationship to other words would not be explained. That is, internal inflections for the construct arise out of syntactic pressures -- nominal 'state' in Proto-Semitic, eg, was inflected entirely by suffix. (What is the absolute state of 'alkad? Is it lakkad? In which case, you'll also need to explain the singular form of the construct as well. You should try to use the same noun throughout your paradigms, by the way.)

Apart from the above:
Where does the -r- infix come from in biliteral roots? It seems entirely random; and in all likelihood, the historical proto-formation of the construct should be identical between triliteral and biliteral roots. If the infix doesn't exist in the proto-formation of all constructs, then any infix should be some sort of glide. I also tend toward the theory that such glides would only occur before or after the root, though there are plenty of Semitists who argue with legitimate reason that a glide might slip in between the two root consonants. With your phonology, I might expect the development of something like 'ašma'-, 'ašmah-, 'ašmay-, or 'ašmaw- for the singular of šim, and 'ašim- for the plural.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Vrkhazhian doesn't have an "absolute" state, only "governed" (the default state of a noun) and "construct", the absolute state I thought was was unecessary and too Semitic. I don't want to have a Semiticlang or copy too much Semitic language.
The construct state is not caseless, the example shown in the table is for the Nominative, but there is also the ablative and allative that function much like the governed state's: ʾalkadaju, ʾalkadifu, ʾalikdējum, ʾalikdufum, etc.

The triconsonantal nature of Vrkhazhian is a rather recent development, having developed before Proto-Vrkhazhian. The present phonology occurs after Proto-Vrkhazhian. As for sound changes, I got Sangi to work them out a while ago, and you can see the family tree at the top of the wiki in the information box under my flag:
Modern Vrkhazhian:
/a ɛ e̞ i ɔ o̞ ə u/
/ae̯ ao̯/
/m m̥ n n̥ ɴ/
/p ʰp pʶ b t ʰt tʶ d k ʰk g q ʰq ʔ/
/t͡s c͡ç ɟ͡ʝ/
/ɸ β s z ç ʝ x ɣ χ h/
/ɹ~ɾ ɹ̥ j w/
/rʷ ʀ/
/l l̥ lʶ ʎ̝̊/
/ m̩ n̩ ɹ̩ r̩ʷ/

Proto-Hasjakam
/i i: u u: ə e e: o o: a a:/
/m n/
/p b t d tʲ dʲ k g kʲ gʲ q ʔ/
/f s sʲ x xʲ h/
/w r l j/
/ɬ/
/m̩ n̩ ɹ̩ r̩/

Phonemic low tone vs. high tone on accented syllables.

1a) Low tone > creaky voice > uvularised preceding consonant
1b) /tʲ dʲ sʲ kʲ gʲ xʲ/ > /ts dz ʃ c ɟ ç/

2a.i) /i: u: e: o: a:/ > /i: u: e: o: a:/
2a.iii) /i u ə e o a/ > /i u i ɛ ɔ ɐ/ > /i u i e o ə/ in closed syllables
2a.iv) /i u ə e o a/ > /i u i e o a/ in open syllables
2b) Loss of unstressed /ə/ in open syllables

3a.i) /mp nt nts nc nk nq nʔ/ > /b: d: dz: ɟ: g:/
3a.ii)/mb nd nd͡z nɟ ng/ > /m: n: n: ɲ: ŋ:/?

4a) Intervocalic jazz hands
4a.i) /p: t: ts: c: k: q: ʔ:/ > /ʰp ʰt s: ʰc ʰk ʰq ʔ/ > /ʰp ʰt s ʰcç ʰk ʰq ʔ/
4a.ii) /p t ts c k q ʔ/ > /p t ts c k q ʔ/ > / p t ts cç k q ʔ/
4b.i) /b: d: dz: ɟ: g:/ > /b d dz ɟ g/ > /b d z ɟʝ g/
4b.ii) /b d dz ɟ g/ > /β ð z ɟ ɣ/ > /β z~r z ʝ ɣ/
4c.i) /m: n: n: ɲ: ŋ:/> /m: n: n: ɲ: ŋ:/ > /m: n: n: n: ɴ:/
4c.ii) /m n/ > /m̥ n̥/
4d.i) /f: s: ʃ: x: ç: h:/ > /f s ʃ x ç h/ > /ɸ s ʃ x ç χ/
4d.ii) /f s ʃ x ç h/ > /h h h h h h/ > /χ/
4e.i) /w: r: l: j:/ > /β r l ʝ/
4e.ii) /w r l j/ > /w r̥ l̥ j/
4f.i) /ɬ:/ > /ʎ̝̊/?
4f.ii) /ɬ/ > /l/

5a.i) /i: u: e: o: a:/ > /ej ow əj əw a/ in open syllables > /ej ow aj aw a/
5a.ii) /i: u: e: o: a:/ > /i u e o a/ in closed syllables
As I understand it, the numbers show the stages of sound changes, the letter represent categories of the consonants ("a" for example is all the plosives), and the i and ii are for voiced and voiceless.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by tiramisu »

"Absolute" is the Semitic grammarians' term for the default state of a noun. I likewise don't think "construct state" is used outside of Afro-Asiatic linguistics (which itself derives its use from descriptions of Semitic grammar), so it was sort of implied that you were using Semitic terminology. Using Semitic grammatical terminology does not, of course, make it a Semitclone. (Is "governed state" a term in any linguistic field?). Jargon is just jargon, though, and I was just trying to use the terminology I could deduce. Everything I said above still applies, just replace "absolute" with "default."

With case: ah, I see.

Can I assume that lahkad- is the default form of the noun? How did it become 'alkad? (Where did the 'al- come from? Why isn't the first vowel in lahkad there anymore in construct?)

Also, I am asking these things because they're important to consider, not because I mean to challenge you or assume you haven't considered them. I also keep making assumptions based off what I see you have and how I understand consonantal root systems, not because I'm purposely making things. If it's annoying, just tell me to shut up. I'm trying to be of help, not challenge. I don't want to pick on your lang if it's unwanted, and I sort of just invited myself into doing so.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Your knowledge is welcomed.

I have search many sites mentioning noun states, The Akkadian page on Wikipedia makes mentions of states:
"As is also the case in other Semitic languages, Akkadian nouns may appear in a variety of "states" depending on their grammatical function in a sentence. The basic form of the noun is the status rectus (the Governed state), which is the form as described above, complete with case endings. In addition to this, Akkadian has the status absolutus (the Absolute state) and the status constructus (Construct state). The latter is found in all other Semitic languages, while the former appears only in Akkadian and some dialects of Aramaic.

The status absolutus is characterised by the loss of a noun's case ending (e.g. awīl < awīlum, šar < šarrum). It is relatively uncommon, and is used chiefly to mark the predicate of a nominal sentence, in fixed adverbial expressions, and in expressions relating to measurements of length, weight, and the like."
There is also mention of an emphatic state, unique to Aramaic, it is also mentioned here, in case you can't access the latter link: "the state or form of a noun in Syriac and Aramaic that makes it determinate or definite".

No, ʾalkad is an agent nominal derived from the verb ʾ-l-d "to guard" (in turn derived from proto-root l-d of which the affix ʾ- is of unknown meaning).
I have a system of derivation stems like Semitic languages do.

The agent stem is CaCkaC for singular and CaCikC- (plus plural affixes) for plural, possibly derived from an agentive infix -ika-, (I could imagine it originally being like ʾaliKAD and ʾalikaDAD > ʾalkad and ʾalikdad, the necessary vowel syncope due to stress change)
ʾalkad is the status rectus form, I never understood the pattern involved with the status constructus, they seemed so irregular and it would be hard to deal with the invalid consonant clusters that would arise, so I just went "screw it, I'm using affixes". It's not like the construct state can't be conveyed by affixes? The construct state markers are -i, -a, and -u for singular nouns. The masculine, neuter, and feminine markers used to be distinct from the governed state's masculine, neuter, and feminine nominative singular endings; they used to be *-ēy, **-ah *-ōw while the nominatives were just vowels. But they were raised (perhaps because of the semi-vowels), and then the semi-vowels were assimilated/omitted/whatever. But that still doesn't explain why all words ending in vowels are represented with either Y, W or H...

Nouns in Vrkhazhian may only end in /i a u/ perhaps because all consonants could only end in /j h w/ and now they are omitted/vocalised.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Acid Badger »

אקֿמך ארש-הגִנו wrote:The triconsonantal nature of Vrkhazhian is a rather recent development, having developed before Proto-Vrkhazhian. The present phonology occurs after Proto-Vrkhazhian. As for sound changes, I got Sangi to work them out a while ago, and you can see the family tree at the top of the wiki in the information box under my flag:
(...)
As I understand it, the numbers show the stages of sound changes, the letter represent categories of the consonants ("a" for example is all the plosives), and the i and ii are for voiced and voiceless.
Hold on. You got someone else to do your diachronics and you're not even sure what their notations means exactly?

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Acid Badger wrote:
אקֿמך ארש-הגִנו wrote:The triconsonantal nature of Vrkhazhian is a rather recent development, having developed before Proto-Vrkhazhian. The present phonology occurs after Proto-Vrkhazhian. As for sound changes, I got Sangi to work them out a while ago, and you can see the family tree at the top of the wiki in the information box under my flag:
(...)
As I understand it, the numbers show the stages of sound changes, the letter represent categories of the consonants ("a" for example is all the plosives), and the i and ii are for voiced and voiceless.
Hold on. You got someone else to do your diachronics and you're not even sure what their notations means exactly?
They told me what the notations were, but I had to guess initially.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by tiramisu »

Good!

I'm a bit suspicious of the plausibility of -ika- as an infix, but I don't know enough about the historical linguistics of infixes to really know what I'm talking about for certain. What exactly are the stress rules? They're unclear. If the stress is on the final syllable of the vowel, I'm not sure how an infix could occur. One potential way of how your -(i)k(a)- might start out: *'a:ləd-k- > *'a:ləkd- (> 'alikd ). But then you need to figure out how you'd develop 'alkad so that you pick up the -a-. You're halfway there, because once you open that middle syllable, that ə will disappear, according to your diachronics. Alternatively, you could come up with a way to drop the -ə- and come up with a rule that brings in -a- as a helping vowel (although I would think /ə/ would typically come in as a helping vowel). I'm not sure how you would go about doing this, personally, though maybe somebody else would have an idea.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I dunno, there has to be some way to get CaCkac/CaCikC-
Now I have to explain the action/process stem CōḥaCiC, the measure noun stem ʾiCinCan, and the tool stem CiCrōC...
and also the status noun stem C1aC2C3iC3...

I have no knowledge of diachronics and reading isn't going to help me with these... particular stems
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by tiramisu »

אקֿמך ארש-הגִנו wrote:I dunno, there has to be some way to get CaCkac/CaCikC-
Now I have to explain the action/process stem CōḥaCiC, the measure noun stem ʾiCinCan, and the tool stem CiCrōC...
and also the status noun stem C1aC2C3iC3...
The plausibility of CōḥaCiC is also suspicious to me. 'iCinCan looks suspicious not because of its infix, but because it looks far too inflected for there not to be similar, less-inflected forms. (Etymologically, it looks like it would have originally been three separate morphemes, even if today it has fused into one). CiCrōC is probably possible, but things would get messy getting there. The last one is entirely possible, but is not infixing -- it's reduplication. It's not typically highly productive, though.

Note also that infixes need some sort of logic driving them, thanks to some cognitive constraints our brains impose to make language processing more efficient. There are limited possibilities for their origination, and if they are identical on the onset, they should end up infixed in the same manner. So -- using a made up example loosely based off your conlang -- if we had *CaCəC-k- > CaCikC-, then we would also expect *CaCəC-r- > CaCirC-. Now, we could have that i vowel change further. In this case, we could say i > e before r because it's a liquid -- in which case, we would have to apply i > e before all liquids. Maybe later on you could get CaCerC > CaCreC, and even later create a shift in stress or something so that the vowel lengthens and becomes CaCre:C. The essential point here is: Consistent application of rules/diachronics/patterns is vital, and I don't necessarily see much of it in Vrkhazhian (though you've already demonstrated that it's there in cases where I haven't seen it).

Things like the issues we've touched upon are why diachronics are very important for CRS a priori langs -- consonantal root systems are necessarily very systematic (hence "system"). Eg, I'm limited in my suggestions to you because I don't fully understand the factors that drive your conlang's development, and I don't have enough information to see a systemic relationship (or to even be sure when there is a lack of systemic relationship). This, of course, is not your fault -- it takes a lot of work to communicate all the information needed to analyse a conlang. But it's rather difficult to simply put a CRS together at random and work backwards and draw connections between its morphemes.

Anyway, I'll be in and out of here as I please I think. I'm busy and don't normally make much time for the board as it is, and it's good you have time to think through things yourself a bit too.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Theophorus wrote:
אקֿמך ארש-הגִנו wrote:I dunno, there has to be some way to get CaCkac/CaCikC-
Now I have to explain the action/process stem CōḥaCiC, the measure noun stem ʾiCinCan, and the tool stem CiCrōC...
and also the status noun stem C1aC2C3iC3...
The plausibility of CōḥaCiC is also suspicious to me. 'iCinCan looks suspicious not because of its infix, but because it looks far too inflected for there not to be similar, less-inflected forms. (Etymologically, it looks like it would have originally been three separate morphemes, even if today it has fused into one). CiCrōC is probably possible, but things would get messy getting there. The last one is entirely possible, but is not infixing -- it's reduplication. It's not typically highly productive, though.

Note also that infixes need some sort of logic driving them, thanks to some cognitive constraints our brains impose to make language processing more efficient. There are limited possibilities for their origination, and if they are identical on the onset, they should end up infixed in the same manner. So -- using a made up example loosely based off your conlang -- if we had *CaCəC-k- > CaCikC-, then we would also expect *CaCəC-r- > CaCirC-. Now, we could have that i vowel change further. In this case, we could say i > e before r because it's a liquid -- in which case, we would have to apply i > e before all liquids. Maybe later on you could get CaCerC > CaCreC, and even later create a shift in stress or something so that the vowel lengthens and becomes CaCre:C. The essential point here is: Consistent application of rules/diachronics/patterns is vital, and I don't necessarily see much of it in Vrkhazhian (though you've already demonstrated that it's there in cases where I haven't seen it).

Things like the issues we've touched upon are why diachronics are very important for CRS a priori langs -- consonantal root systems are necessarily very systematic (hence "system"). Eg, I'm limited in my suggestions to you because I don't fully understand the factors that drive your conlang's development, and I don't have enough information to see a systemic relationship (or to even be sure when there is a lack of systemic relationship). This, of course, is not your fault -- it takes a lot of work to communicate all the information needed to analyse a conlang. But it's rather difficult to simply put a CRS together at random and work backwards and draw connections between its morphemes.

Anyway, I'll be in and out of here as I please I think. I'm busy and don't normally make much time for the board as it is, and it's good you have time to think through things yourself a bit too.
Oh, pardon, that's NOT 'iCinCan, it should be 'iCinCaC, I keep think of the word for "weight" which is "'idinban"

I can't think of an alternate construct state for my biliteral roots than the current stem CVraC / CarCVC, and the stems you suggest are unappealing when I attack my allative and ablative suffixes on them...
I don't see why it can't be that the construct state stem for biliteral roots be inherited from a proto-language and the function of the tri- and quadriliteral root construct state suffixes came into development later.
Alternative, they could have been borrowed from a sister language.

Or we could just simplify things and make the construct state stem as "'aCC-" and also take on the normal construct state suffixes.
Example: ʾašma, ʾašmi, ʾašmu, ʾašman, ʾašmil, ʾašmum, etc.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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