Sound Change Quickie Thread

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

אקֿמך ארש-הגִנו: Which consonant clusters are most common? Are all consonant clusters found in all positions? Are there consonant culsters which appear only in loanwords? And then there's the possbility of interaction between grammatical change and phonological change.

I haven't decided on those things yet, but consonant clusters would be far more restricted than cousin language Vrkhazhian, only allowing some stop + stop clusters like /kt gd/, and some fricative + stop clusters like /xp xt xk/, but /xk/ would be coda only.

[Pole, the]

What do you all think of CVʔC → CʔVC?

(I am aiming for a chain of sound changes producing i.a. [tip] → [tipw] → [tiʔw] → [tʔiw] → [tʼiw] → [tɕʼu]. What do you think of those?)

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

What do you all think of CVʔC → CʔVC?

(I am aiming for a chain of sound changes producing i.a. [tip] → [tipw] → [tiʔw] → [tʔiw] → [tʼiw] → [tɕʼu]. What do you think of those?)

Looks like it makes sense...

[Pole, the]

What do you all think of CVʔC → CʔVC?

Also, per analogiam, CVɦC → CɦVC?

[Cedh]

What do you all think of CVʔC → CʔVC?

Also, per analogiam, CVɦC → CɦVC?

Sure. Laryngeal (supra)segment(al)s like glottalisation or breathy voice can easily metathesize with a neighboring vowel, so these sound changes are very plausible.

(BTW, I have used CʰVC → CVhC in Tmaśareʔ, which is basically the same thing, only the other way around and using voiceless aspiration as the laryngeal feature in question.)

[Tropylium]

I get too many ideas lately. Now I want to turn Swedish into a Northwest Caucasianesque language. There are two processes in this language that I want to ask about. One is vowels dumping their features on preceding consonants, and one is something similar to stød in Danish, except here the pitch accent turns into pharyngealization of consonants.

• What should I do about labiovelarized and labiopalatalized labials, which I find awkward? They are /mʷ, pʷ, bʷ, fʷ, vʷ, mᶣ, pᶣ, bᶣ, fᶣ, vᶣ + pharyngealized variants of all these/. I could do /fʷ, vʷ, fᶣ, vᶣ/ /ɸ, β, ɸʲ, βʲ/, but what about the rest? Or should I just leave them all as is? Or just drop the rounding?
• What should I do about consonants that are simultaneously in a palatalizing environment and a pharyngealizing environment? Would these two things just cancel eachother out, or what do you think should happen?

Aw, anyone?

Chainshift: previous labiovelars > labiouvulars, then labiovelarized labials > new labiovelars, labiopalatalized labials > labiopalatals.

[Qwynegold]

What can the sje-sound turn into? I am working on a language family and the protolang has that phoneme. The sje-sound is ɧ and its romanization is a j with stroke from Unicode.
as well as ingressive fricatives (s and z) and what can uvularized sounds turn into? I have uvularized b, y, z, v, f, s, h

Oh, I was gonna respond to this but forgot. There aren't any exactly any natlang examples of it turning to anything, but I think S and x are most likely. f or W might also happen.

Aren't there? What about those Swedish dialects that have X_w for <sj> (or is that conservative)?

/ɧ/ is in modern Swedish, so it hasn't had time to turn into something else yet. I don't this well, so don't quote me on this one, but different dialects realize this sound differently. These realizations didn't come from "/ɧ/", but from /sj/, /skj/, /sk/ and other sources. Anyhow, it's unclear if there really is such a thing as [ɧ]. In standard Swedish, this sound is something like x_-_w, i.e. a labialized prevelar fricative.

[Qwynegold]

I get too many ideas lately. Now I want to turn Swedish into a Northwest Caucasianesque language. There are two processes in this language that I want to ask about. One is vowels dumping their features on preceding consonants, and one is something similar to stød in Danish, except here the pitch accent turns into pharyngealization of consonants.

• What should I do about labiovelarized and labiopalatalized labials, which I find awkward? They are /mʷ, pʷ, bʷ, fʷ, vʷ, mᶣ, pᶣ, bᶣ, fᶣ, vᶣ + pharyngealized variants of all these/. I could do /fʷ, vʷ, fᶣ, vᶣ/ /ɸ, β, ɸʲ, βʲ/, but what about the rest? Or should I just leave them all as is? Or just drop the rounding?
• What should I do about consonants that are simultaneously in a palatalizing environment and a pharyngealizing environment? Would these two things just cancel eachother out, or what do you think should happen?

Aw, anyone?

Chainshift: previous labiovelars > labiouvulars, then labiovelarized labials > new labiovelars, labiopalatalized labials > labiopalatals.

I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean like this?:
k_w, g_w, etc q_w, G\_w, etc
m_w, p_w, etc N_w, k_w, etc
m_H, p_H, etc H

[Qwynegold]

I have another question too. I'm unsure about what to do with some of the retroflex consonants, see the list below. I've been thinking that they're gonna be unstable in this language, so they're affected by secondary features. Palatalization pulls them forwards, and labiovelarization/pharyngealization pulls them backwards. But when it comes to the plosives, I'm hesitant to turn them velar because I think that e.g. ʈʷ and kʷ sound a lot different. And in this language, there haven't been that huge changes to any of the consonants. I also don't know what to do with plain ʈ, ɖ, ɳ, ʂ, ɭ. I don't want to merge them with the alveolars.

ʈ > ?
ʈʲ > tʲ
ʈᶣ > tᶣ
ʈʷ > ?
ʈˁ > ?
ʈʲˁ > tˁ
ʈᶣˁ > tʷˁ
ʈʷˁ > ?
ɖ > ?
ɖʲ > dʲ
ɖᶣ > dᶣ
ɖʷ > ?
ɳ > ?
ɳʲ > ɲ > nʲ
ɳᶣ > ɲᶣ > nᶣ
ɳʷ > ŋʷ
ɳˁ > ɴ
ɳʲˁ > ŋʲ
ɳᶣˁ > ŋᶣ
ɳʷˁ > ɴʷ
ʂ > ?
ʂʲ > ɕ
ʂᶣ > ɕᶣ
ʂʷ > xʷ
ʂˁ > x
ʂʲˁ > ɕˁ
ʂᶣˁ > ɕᶣˁ
ʂʷˁ > χʷ

[LinguistCat]

I have another question too. I'm unsure about what to do with some of the retroflex consonants, see the list below. I've been thinking that they're gonna be unstable in this language, so they're affected by secondary features. Palatalization pulls them forwards, and labiovelarization/pharyngealization pulls them backwards. But when it comes to the plosives, I'm hesitant to turn them velar because I think that e.g. ʈʷ and kʷ sound a lot different. And in this language, there haven't been that huge changes to any of the consonants. I also don't know what to do with plain ʈ, ɖ, ɳ, ʂ, ɭ. I don't want to merge them with the alveolars.

I don't think I can speak to your proposed sound changes in general, but IIRC, ʈʷ would be more likely to become k (due to backing) or p (due to similarity of sound). But I'm honestly kind of out of it, and maybe someone with a better working grasp on phonology could tell us both better.

[Porphyrogenitos]

What are some common conditions under which metathesis occurs?

Is it possible that a particular phoneme could act as a sort of "trigger" for metathesis within a particular phonological system?

[Daistallia]

For getting some aspirated and ejective stops and tone, do these changes work?
unvoiced stop > aspirated stop/_long vowel
unvoiced stop > aspirated stop/_/h/
unvoiced stop > ejective stop/_ /ʔ/
V: > V high tone
VV > V low tone

The protolang has long vowels, allows VV, with a glottal interruption between V1 and V2, and has (C)(C)V(V)(C)(C) with very permisive initial clusters and nasals, /h/, and /ʔ/ allowed as the final in the coda.

[Aili Meilani]

Would I get away with V → V[+nasal] / C[+glottal]__?

[Pogostick Man]

Would I get away with V → V[+nasal] / C[+glottal]__?

I think so. See rhinoglotophilia.

[vokzhen]

I have another question too. I'm unsure about what to do with some of the retroflex consonants, see the list below. I've been thinking that they're gonna be unstable in this language, so they're affected by secondary features. Palatalization pulls them forwards, and labiovelarization/pharyngealization pulls them backwards. But when it comes to the plosives, I'm hesitant to turn them velar because I think that e.g. ʈʷ and kʷ sound a lot different. And in this language, there haven't been that huge changes to any of the consonants. I also don't know what to do with plain ʈ, ɖ, ɳ, ʂ, ɭ. I don't want to merge them with the alveolars.

If you're willing to mess things up a bit, one possibility might be to merge the labialized alveolars into the labials, and then front the labialized retroflexes. There is Na-Dene that is reconstructed with a labialized postalveolar or a retroflex series, which reflects as (labio)-velar in Tlingit and Eyak and coronal in Athabaskan. But from what little I know of it it seems like that might one of those artifacts of reconstruction where the difference is really e.g. an early palatalization of the velars that simply doesn't have conditions that are within our ability to reconstruct, rather than an entire series that starts out coronal and ends up velar in some branches.

For getting some aspirated and ejective stops and tone, do these changes work?
unvoiced stop > aspirated stop/_long vowel
unvoiced stop > aspirated stop/_/h/
unvoiced stop > ejective stop/_ /ʔ/
V: > V high tone
VV > V low tone

The protolang has long vowels, allows VV, with a glottal interruption between V1 and V2, and has (C)(C)V(V)(C)(C) with very permisive initial clusters and nasals, /h/, and /ʔ/ allowed as the final in the coda.

Looks okay to me, I'm not quite as sure about aspiration before long vowels, I don't remember how exactly aspiration tends to interact with vowel length (whether it's before or after length, etc). If you don't have a voiced series, another possibility is stop-stop clusters become aspirated-stop, phonemicized if you later insert epenthetic vowels, or final stops becoming aspirated. I also would be surprised if "low tone" is phonetically either rising or falling, if one of the two vowels is given more prominence (or both, so that i.e. /ie/ is rising and /ei/ is falling, but phonemically both are "low").

EDIT:

What are some common conditions under which metathesis occurs?

This post might have a bit of info for you. The most common metathesis I've run into are sonorant or pharyngeal/glottal consonants switching positions from coda to onset or vice versa: CVRC to CRVC, CVRCV to CVCRV and similar, jumping over one segment in one direction or the other. But there's some pretty crazy ones out there though, Tariana has a morpheme-initial h metathesize left through CV syllables, through multiple morphemes and syllables, and apparently a number of other Arawakan languages have something similar.

[Qwynegold]

I have another question too. I'm unsure about what to do with some of the retroflex consonants, see the list below. I've been thinking that they're gonna be unstable in this language, so they're affected by secondary features. Palatalization pulls them forwards, and labiovelarization/pharyngealization pulls them backwards. But when it comes to the plosives, I'm hesitant to turn them velar because I think that e.g. ʈʷ and kʷ sound a lot different. And in this language, there haven't been that huge changes to any of the consonants. I also don't know what to do with plain ʈ, ɖ, ɳ, ʂ, ɭ. I don't want to merge them with the alveolars.

If you're willing to mess things up a bit, one possibility might be to merge the labialized alveolars into the labials, and then front the labialized retroflexes. There is Na-Dene that is reconstructed with a labialized postalveolar or a retroflex series, which reflects as (labio)-velar in Tlingit and Eyak and coronal in Athabaskan. But from what little I know of it it seems like that might one of those artifacts of reconstruction where the difference is really e.g. an early palatalization of the velars that simply doesn't have conditions that are within our ability to reconstruct, rather than an entire series that starts out coronal and ends up velar in some branches.

Hmm, that's interesting. I was also thinking of something like t` (t_G ) t_w for the plain retroflexes, because I think retroflexes sound kiiinda similar to velarized alveolars.

[KathTheDragon]

How likely are these changes:
moi, voi > mai, vai
#tl, #dl, #sl > tʃ, dʒ, ʃ (perhaps with intermediate steps)
rt# > st
rC[+labial]# > rC[+dental]

[Zaarin]

How likely are these changes:
moi, voi > mai, vai
#tl, #dl, #sl > tʃ, dʒ, ʃ (perhaps with intermediate steps)
rt# > st
rC[+labial]# > rC[+dental]

The first two lines at least look perfectly reasonable to me. I imagine a reasonable intermediate step on the second line would probably be /t͡ɬ d͡ɮ ɬ/.

[vokzhen]

Another option would be Romance-like, where /l/ itself palatalizes in some situations.

Devoiced /r/ usually ends up as /ʃ/, afaik, so I'd expect /rt/ > /ʃt/. I don't think it's too big an issue, though.

The last seems a bit odd, but I'm not sure it's unrealistic or just unexpected.

[Sacemd]

I have this lang with several dialects which differ in palatalisation of velars (The velar inventory is limited to /k ɣ/ with [x] allophonically), but I'm not sure what to do with several clusters:

Standard:
[k] -> [s]
[sk] -> [s] initially or [ss] internally
[ɣ] -> [j]
[x] -> [x]? [j]? [ʃ]??
[sx] -> [sj]?
[kx] (only occurs in palatalising environment in one word, "acge" "dry" /ɑkɣe/ [ɑkxe]) -> [tts] ??

Amao:
[k] -> [tʃ]
[sk] -> [ʃ] initially or [ʃʃ] internally
[ɣ] -> [ʒ]
[x] -> [ʃ]
[sx] -> [ʃʃ]?
[kx] -> [kʃ]/[ktʃ]/[ttʃ] ??

Eastern:
[k] -> [ts]
[sk] -> [ʃ] initially or [ʃʃ] internally
[ɣ] -> [j]
[x] -> [ʃ]
[sx] -> [ʃʃ]?
[kx] -> [kʃ]??

[Nannalu]

What can /ɻ/ evolve to?

[Cedh]

What can /ɻ/ evolve to?

Some possibilities:

V[+front] > V[-front] / _ɻ
ɻ > Ø (zero)
ɻ > w
ɻ > j
ɻ > ʕ
ɻ > ʐ > ʒ
ɻ > ɭ > l
ɻ > ɳ > n / V[+nasalized]_, _V[+nasalized]
ɻV, Vɻ > V[+rhotic]; for example [ɚ ɝ ɑ˞ ɔ˞ u˞ ʉ˞ ɨ˞] (likely with some mergers)
ɻC, Cɻ > C[+retroflex]; for example [ʈ ɖ ʂ ʐ ɳ ɭ] (most likely with coronal consonants, but also attested with labials and dorsals)

[Bristel]

What can /ɻ/ evolve to?

So you also had idea problems with our proto-language?

[Nannalu]

What can /ɻ/ evolve to?

So you also had idea problems with our proto-language?

Those damn retroflexes!

[Bristel]

Is feature spreading from consonants to vowels something that works in reverse as well as forwards? (I can't remember the term for forward or reverse spreading). So if a consonant is breathy, can the breathy voice spread to preceding and/or following vowels?