Help your conlang fluency (2)

[masako]

nya moya ke kalamya nayo tlahika
My conlang is very easy to write.

na'etla ke iniye muyaye
I made it with this goal.

[Pedant]

nya moya ke kalamya nayo tlahika
My conlang is very easy to write.

na'etla ke iniye muyaye
I made it with this goal.

Çhuimoymitluk meknaqham kutaçahlanakuhl, Masako.
2s.human-and-writing spirit-with-long 1s.human-3s.plant-know.by.memory-and-admire-pres.act.ind. Masako
I know and admire your wonderful work, Masako.

[Pedant]

Dèa ōsme, ni ōs zásuìteis tō-ām noi?
Spirit 1s-gen / NEG 1s offend.harm-pa.im.act 2s-master Q
Oh, spirits, I haven't offended you, have I?

[Travis B.]

Lettãxevnak nē lekhénə līsqarókkū melīsčípakkū səllepperrūnúk vèqqə levé álēla meyálēlə okánve lèraya xēxáytī làšto.
[letˈtɒːχeʋnɐk neː leˈkʰeːnɨ liːsqɐˈroːkːuː meliːsˈtʃiːpɐkːuː sɨlːepːerːuːˈnuːk ˈʋeqːɨ leˈʋeː ˈæːleːlɐ mejˈæːleːlɨ oˈkæːnʋe ˈlerɐjɐ χeːˈχæːjtiː ˈlɐʃto]
I wonder whether it would be easier or harder to rely upon diachronics or synchronics for writing examples.

[Dē Graut Bʉr]

Pogg oss dē tohyt enn wet dē oss.
[ˌpɔxː s̩ːˈtoːhətʲ n̩ˈʋɛɪ̯tːˈɔsː]
Try.IMP on the two-NMZ and know.IMP it on
Try both and you'll find out.

[Travis B.]

Lelxaqqovúk álēla oknávnə yojxét xētílmo thústəmə khânílū.
[lelχɐqːoˈʋuːk ˈæːleːlɐ okˈnæːʋnɨ jodzˈχeːt χeːˈtiːlmo ˈtʰuːstɨmɨ kʰɒːˈniːluː]
Synchronics requires making complex morpheme charts.

[Pedant]

Lelxaqqovúk álēla oknávnə yojxét xētílmo thústəmə khânílū.
[lelχɐqːoˈʋuːk ˈæːleːlɐ okˈnæːʋnɨ jodzˈχeːt χeːˈtiːlmo ˈtʰuːstɨmɨ kʰɒːˈniːluː]
Synchronics requires making complex morpheme charts.

Tõ suargēi pōu-zājià noi?
2s mean-pr.im.a speech-down.river Q
Do you mean diachronics?

[Travis B.]

Nəletxaqqovúk aġòr levé álēla ãme xémža xēnphánmə leǰâxthómnə thústənə òknommə aġarrènə.
[nɨletχɐqːoˈʋuːk ɐˈʁor leˈʋeː ˈæːleːlɐ ˈɒːme ˈχeːmʒɐ χeːnˈpʰæːnmɨ ledʒɒːχˈtʰoːmnɨ ˈtʰuːstɨnɨ ˈoknommɨ ɐʁɐrˈrenɨ]
Diachronics requires it less because of less static morphological effects.

[Travis B.]

(Not in Xanínə because this would take too long to write in it.)

The problem is as follows: Doing things diachronically means one just has to have the original forms in the protolanguage, which one can then derive the synchronic forms from as one writes. This means writing is slow, because one has to play back all the sound change from the protolanguage to the synchronic forms as one writes, and it is also error-prone, because one may misapply the sound change rules in question, but at the same time one has to record fewer forms in one's grammar and one's dictionary.

But doing things synchronically has the problem that there are many synchronically irregular forms derived by sound change from the protolanguage. This means one needs to either record all the potential forms that are not entirely synchronically predictable in one's dictionary by applying sound change as one writes one's dictionary to the protolanguage forms or, because this is likely to be unmanageable, split up protolanguage stems into classes of stems that behave similarly morphologically synchronically, and apply sound change to each of these to produce tables of different forms derived from different stem classes.

The latter solution still has the problem that there may be may different classes of stem, and one has to figure out each different possible protolanguage stem-form that will behave differently synchronically. This also has the problem that the resulting tables can be quite large, as each possible combination of morphemes attached to a particular class of stem may behave differently (in Xanínə because different morphemes have different effects upon both historical and synchronic stress position and thus reduction, syncope, voicing, and aspiration, because different adjacent morphemes can merge together, because of assimilation, and because of the application of syncope), aside from cases that behave completely transparently.

[jal]

(Not in Xanínə because this would take too long to write in it.)

Mi si fo yu pwoblem, ova de ray langwic, paradaym dem on mek don son cenc an dem ya in regyula, sim got mo regyula pas taym. Fi soso dirayf olda ting an in af no cenc in ray mana.
I recognize your problem, but in real languages, irregular paradigms resulting from sound changes tend to become more regular over time. To derive everything and not having any changes isn't realistic.


JAL

[Travis B.]

(Not in Xanínə because this would take too long to write in it.)

Mi si fo yu pwoblem, ova de ray langwic, paradaym dem on mek don son cenc an dem ya in regyula, sim got mo regyula pas taym. Fi soso dirayf olda ting an in af no cenc in ray mana.
I recognize your problem, but in real languages, irregular paradigms resulting from sound changes tend to become more regular over time. To derive everything and not having any changes isn't realistic.

Well, of course, and this requires the latter approach, because stems will naturally end up in some smaller set of stem classes (note I do not say "regular" forms here, since there is no regular stem class in Xanínə) than if one directly derived everything via sound change from protolanguage forms, and if one tried to directly derive synchronic forms from protolanguage forms through applying sound change one would have to remember all the irregularities w.r.t. sound change due to leveling between different stem classes and different inflectional forms within the same stem class through analogy.

[Pedant]

(Not in any of my own this time.)

I do see what you're saying; in this case I think you're right. My assumption in suggesting diachronics as the more difficult method was based on the misassumption that you were working either with a language isolate or had already performed the transitions.

[Travis B.]

To illustrate, these are the most common forms the forms for a stem of form C₁V₁C₂:

Unprefixed

m./f.-in sg./coll. abs. ˈC₁V₁C₂
m./f.-in sg./coll. obl. ˈC₁V₁C_2və
m./f.-in pl. abs. C₁əˈC₂o
m./f.-in pl. obl. C₁əˈC₂omə
m./f.-in sgt. sg. abs. C₁əˈC₂ēt
m./f.-in sgt. sg. obl. C₁əˈC₂ēdə
m./f.-in sgt. pl. abs. C₁əˈC₂ado
m./f.-in sgt. pl. obl. C₁əˈC₂āddə
f.+in sg./coll. abs. ˈC₁V₁C_2ve
f.+in sg./coll. obl. ˈC₁V₁C₂nə
f.+in pl. abs. C₁əˈC₂ome
f.+in pl. obl. C₁əˈC₂ommə
f.+in sgt. sg. abs. C₁əˈC₂ēde
f.+in sgt. sg. obl. C₁əˈC₂ēttə
f.+in sgt. pl. abs. C₁əˈC₂ādde
f.+in sgt. pl. obl. C₁âC_2vˈtommə

Prefixed

m./f.-in sg./coll. abs. ˈ(C)V+C_1vV₁C₂
m./f.-in sg./coll. obl. ˈ(C)Vː+C_1vC_2və
m./f.-in pl. abs. ˈ(C)V+C₁C₂o
m./f.-in pl. obl. ˈ(C)V+C₁C₂omə
m./f.-in sgt. sg. abs. (C)V+C₁ˈC₂ēt
m./f.-in sgt. sg. obl. (C)V+C₁ˈC₂ēdə
m./f.-in sgt. pl. abs. ˈ(C)V+C₁C₂ado
m./f.-in sgt. pl. obl. (C)V+C₁ˈC₂āddə
f.+in sg./coll. abs. ˈ(C)Vː+C_1vC_2ve
f.+in sg./coll. obl. (C)V+ˈC₁V₁C₂nə
f.+in pl. abs. ˈ(C)V+C₁C₂ome
f.+in pl. obl. ˈ(C)V+C₁C₂ommə
f.+in sgt. sg. abs. ˈ(C)V+C₁C₂ēde
f.+in sgt. sg. obl. (C)V+C₁ˈC₂ēttə
f.+in sgt. pl. abs. (C)V+C₁ˈC₂ādde
f.+in sgt. pl. obl. (C)V+C₁ˈC₂adommə

The (C)V+ or (C)Vː+ represents the prefix in question.

C_v represents the voicing of a formerly voiceless pulmonic consonant.

These already are diachonically irregular because most of the prefixes on nouns are leveled to behave the same way, regardless of whether they have short or long or reduced vowels.

The above does not take into account the effects stems ending in nasals or historical voiced fricatives or the assimilation of adjacent radicals. It should also be noted that the effects of uvular consonants and of pulmonic versus ejective plosives can be regularly derived from the above table despite not being directly mentioned in it.

[MobiusFlip]

Wgachny'wh kryh chrsa'shllz yoch, nllth'ngyshy'yh xn?
[wʊgaʧn̩jʔʊwh krih ʧr̩saʔʃl̩z jɒʧ nl̩θʔŋiʃjɪʔjih χn̩]
use-1p.-past.imp. should constructed.language 1p-gen, be_correct-1p-pres.perf. query
We should be using our conlangs, am I right?

[Boşkoventi]

Wgachny'wh kryh chrsa'shllz yoch, nllth'ngyshy'yh xn?
[wʊgaʧn̩jʔʊwh krih ʧr̩saʔʃl̩z jɒʧ nl̩θʔŋiʃjɪʔjih χn̩]
use-1p.-past.imp. should constructed.language 1p-gen, be_correct-1p-pres.perf. query
We should be using our conlangs, am I right?

Sen anar hai.
[sen ánar hai̯]
1PL should AUX1.PL
We should.

Candia, Travis, sen hai uinda. Nehak uistot koroa min robbo-gauinta, he mut em anar un. Matiosá uistoddu vadu mine dínanta.
[tʃáɲɟa | trávis | sen hai̯ wín̪ːa || néhak wístot kóró.a min robːoɡawínta | hé mut ẽ ánar un || macósaː wistódːu vá.u míne z̪iːnánta]
sure.ADJ5.1 (name) 1PP AUX1.PL understand build.PPL language 2SG.MOD5 COP5 complicated.ADJ5.1 also thus 3P5 should COP5 simple.ADJ5.2 language.PL PART5.PL COP5.PL boredom.ADJZ.ADJ5.1
Yeah, Travis, we get it. Your conlang is complicated, as it should be. Simple languages are boring.

(Pai dini, tennu dami, matiosá uistot va uk mig kauis sagadu dorodu hadu, ueniuo jantauo.)
[pai̯ z̪íni | ténnu z̪ámi | macósaː wístot va uk miŋ káwis sáɣá.u z̪óró.u há.u | wéniwo dʒántawo]
and some.MOD1 IMPERS say simple.ADJ5.2 language PART5 NEG can express all.MOD5.PL DEF5.PL, thought.LOC person.ADJZ.ADJ1.1.LOC
(And some say that a simple language cannot express all the subtleties of human thought.)

[masako]

Matiosá uistoddu vadu mine dínanta. ;-)
Simple languages are boring. ;-)

ya, e, uatla ke omyo tayompe, tlaka...

[Travis B.]

Xēlenvánəttak lexrəyàvo čətàmmə sútī ətãqrəv.
[xeːlenˈʋæːnɨtːɐk leχrɨˈjɐʋo tʃʰɨˈtʰɐmmɨ ˈsuːtiː ɨˈtʰɒːqrɨʋ]
I have way too many stem classes.

[jal]

ya, e, uatla ke omyo tayompe, tlaka...

Ray. It mata bo fi gol - wen yu won bisi bisi bo fi swi ondwet nown kes o fi elevn ten vahp diklencon, it a fayn. Ova wen yu feva di byutines fi simplnes it swel a fayn. Dis in mac fi ahcip.
Indeed. It depends on your goal: when you want to be immerse yourself in your three hundred noun cases or eleventy verb declensions, that's fine. But when you prefer the beauty of simplicity, that's fine too. This isn't a competition for difficulty.


JAL

[Qxentio]

Indeed. It depends on your goal: when you want to be immerse yourself in your three hundred noun cases or eleventy verb declensions, that's fine. But when you prefer the beauty of simplicity, that's fine too. This isn't a competition for difficulty.

Jagárhvejak ginévam gímaidu, qwai edhame kalashaxá vaera bid.
YAGARIAN-Acc INVENT-Past-1.Pers.Sg SIMPLICITY-Adv-FOR, BUT ENOUGH COMPLICATED-Nom-Fem-Sg ALREADY IS
I designed Jagárh for simpicity's sake, but it's complicated enough already.

[Travis B.]

Nəlelxàvnaǰe ámə ləkánlə límža levé lírnə lelãmə ləkánlə təsãqrəttə.
[nɨlelˈχɐʋnɐdʒe ˈæːmɨ lɨˈkʰæːnlɨ ˈliːmʒɐ leˈʋeː ˈliːrnɨ leˈlɒːmɨ lɨˈkʰæːnlɨ tʰɨˈsɒːqrɨtːɨ]
This is complex due to sound change instead of being deliberately complex.

[Qxentio]

Nəlelxàvnaǰe ámə ləkánlə límža levé lírnə lelãmə ləkánlə təsãqrəttə.
[nɨlelˈχɐʋnɐdʒe ˈæːmɨ lɨˈkʰæːnlɨ ˈliːmʒɐ leˈʋeː ˈliːrnɨ leˈlɒːmɨ lɨˈkʰæːnlɨ tɨˈsɒːqrɨtːɨ]
This is complex due to sound change instead of being deliberately complex.

Veja nhuwáwádhid qxálozhá vejush. Gineval podlejewagouloumtthoimúgad?
The language looks impossible to pronounce. Did you design it with history and sound changes?

[Travis B.]

A ca. Qatálə līmtonàk səlīyvàkkū əjyàl áme?
[ɐ tsɐ || qɐˈtʰæːlɨ liːmtoˈnɐk sɨliːjˈʋɐkːuː ɨdzˈjɐl ˈæːme]
Umm yes. And why do you think it is impossible to pronounce?

[ObsequiousNewt]

gímaidu
SIMPLICITY-Adv-FOR

I don't know if you mean this as a case, but, if so, it is usually referred to as a 'benefactive'. Also, your glossing capitalization is somewhat idiosyncratic—you usually have your content morphemes as lowercase and your grammatical morphemes as uppercase. (Also, why did you gloss "Jagárhvejak" as "Yagarian" but translate it as "Jagárh"?)

túinde teilleomba-meonna-liellalla-naŋŋylloŋgiunnam mambur ŋymminni elminembeandomburrambum
I am too lazy to translate the above into Elmin.

[Travis B.]

Lekkúrrak nē səleččâlnúk mī límžə əllənína.
[ekˈkʰːuːrːɐk neː sɨletʃːɒːlˈnuːk miː ˈliːmʒɨ ɨlːɨˈniːnɐ]
You mean from Elmin, I assume.

(Whoops I misread what you meant there.)

[Qxentio]

I don't know if you mean this as a case, but, if so, it is usually referred to as a 'benefactive'.

It's a strange case which I called Averbialis for lack of a better term. It's used whenever you want to attach a suffix to a noun which turns the whole thing into an adverbial phrase, such as -gad (with), -du (for) or -fá (on top of).

Also, your glossing capitalization is somewhat idiosyncratic—you usually have your content morphemes as lowercase and your grammatical morphemes as uppercase.

Thanks for pointing that out. Glossing is something I'm still learning. Nobody ever taught me that in my linguistics classes

(Also, why did you gloss "Jagárhvejak" as "Yagarian" but translate it as "Jagárh"?)

I'm accidentally being inconsistent.

túinde teilleomba-meonna-liellalla-naŋŋylloŋgiunnam mambur ŋymminni elminembeandomburrambum
I am too lazy to translate the above into Elmin.

Bid dánhy. Fídhushydu dhamim gék.
is good. help-INF-ADV-for thank-PRESENT-1.PERS-SG you-ACC
[bɪd ˈdɒː.ŋə ˈfiː.ðʊʃ.ə.dʊ ˈðam.ɪm ɟeːk]
It's alright, thank you for helping.