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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:39 pm 
Sanno
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Echobeats wrote:
So I haven't posted since, apparently, 2012, but I wanted to come back on and say how much I'm enjoying Øynduyska. I've been trying to get the beginnings of a Norse-descended conlang sorted out in my head for some time so it's good to see a Germanic conlang by someone who really knows their stuff.

(Hi everyone btw. Sorry I haven't been around much. I have three kids now.)


*faints*
Wow, I'm flattered - and, of course, glad to see you back, even if it's only temporary! Congratulations (and/or condolences) on the children...

I'm also glad (/relieved) that I've succesfully been able to create the false impression of knowing my stuff...

Good luck with the norse language, and let us see it when it's ready...


spanick: nope, not as yet. I've tended to shy away from detailing the actual lexicon, at least at this stage. [I think some detail on key prepositions may be necessary, thoguh, either as an addendum to this sketch or as a sequel to it]. There are also a couple of the less-used forms I'm not entirely sure on yet.

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:40 pm 
Sanno
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While we're at it, here's the next tranche. Negation and topicalisation.

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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:46 am 
Lebom
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Salmoneus wrote:
spanick: nope, not as yet. I've tended to shy away from detailing the actual lexicon, at least at this stage. [I think some detail on key prepositions may be necessary, thoguh, either as an addendum to this sketch or as a sequel to it]. There are also a couple of the less-used forms I'm not entirely sure on yet.


Ah, ok. No worries. Im working on a new germlang decended from PGmc right now and was just curious how you handled third person pronouns. They can be tricksy.

Edit: by "handled" I mean in a diachronic sound change/etymological sort of way, not their grammatical peculiarities which you have already touched upon.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:42 pm 
Sanno
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spanick wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
spanick: nope, not as yet. I've tended to shy away from detailing the actual lexicon, at least at this stage. [I think some detail on key prepositions may be necessary, thoguh, either as an addendum to this sketch or as a sequel to it]. There are also a couple of the less-used forms I'm not entirely sure on yet.


Ah, ok. No worries. Im working on a new germlang decended from PGmc right now and was just curious how you handled third person pronouns. They can be tricksy.

Edit: by "handled" I mean in a diachronic sound change/etymological sort of way, not their grammatical peculiarities which you have already touched upon.


Radically, I've gone for 'he' and 'she'. These descend from *hiz and (probably) *hijō, the latter via an irregular soundchange, paralleling English (at least, one theory in English, iirc). Neuter *hit yields epicene 'het', while the true neuter pronoun is cognate to English 'that'.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:57 am 
Sanno
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No, it isn't all over yet. This time, subclauses. Not much more, though, at least at this stage.

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:58 am 
Sanno
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In other news: I'm thinking about adding a 'silent e' rule.

It seems pretty drastic, and indeed I cut it out from previous versions of the orthography.

The problem is, however, the aorist indicative singular of a great many verbs ends up having a long vowel, but a final consonant. This means I need to write out a lot of long vowels, some of which look quite ugly (to me) when overused. Perhaps more troublingly, it also means having to change the spelling of the root of the verb even though the pronunciation stays the same. Thus, varcweeð ech, "I promise", but varcweðað wi, "we promise" - although the vowel is long in both cases. Similarly, graąv ech, "I dig it", but grąvað wi, "we dig it."

So I have four solutions:
a) keep it like this, with orthographic (though not phonemic) alternation
b) introduce an etymologically-mostly-justified silent e: varcweðe ech, grąve ech, etc.
c) always double the vowel: varcweeðað wi, graąvað wi, etc
d) spell it as short but pronounce it as long: varcweð ech, grąv ech, etc.

a) has the advantage of orthographic simplicity, but it's an additional, wholly artificial rule in conjugation, and I'm not sure whether I like the look of the long vowels. Then again, maybe I do. It also has a historical disadvantage, since it requires a more rational spelling reform than the other options.
b) has the advantage of morphological simplicity, but it's an additional orthographic rule to learn. It makes it look a bit more English; on the other hand, is having silent final letters in a non-English language just a step too far? Can I overcome the instinct to pronounce them? It may make most sense historically.
c) has the advantage of maximum simplicity (except that in writing you have to remember to double the last vowel in verbs for no good reason). It has the distinct disadvantage of swamping the entire verbal system in double vowels throughout, and I think that's ugly.
d) has the advantage of morphological simplicity, but is an arbitrary orthographic complexity: "pronounce the last vowel of aorist indicative singular verbs as though written as long." It makes the spelling quite misleading, since there's no reminder of the rule in the spelling (at least with silent e there's a visual nudge). On the other hand, once you know that rule it's a simple thing, and it saves on letters.

I think I can rule out c). But I see the attractions of a), b), and d), so I'm not sure which way to go. Any thoughts?

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I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:27 pm 
Sumerul
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I'm personally a fan of the silent e


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:40 pm 
Lebom
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Personally, I would go with either A or D. A feels very Dutch or Middle English to me, and seems fairly natural. I agree that doubling vowels can look ugly, in particular I always thought u and i look horrible doubled. D for some reason makes me think of Faroese. It's not that complicated of a rule to remember and certainly seems like something native speakers would come up with. I mean, they don't *need* to represent long vowels. They know where they are already. I also think that D suites the aesthetic you're going for better than A.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:09 pm 
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I would leave it as it is (option a). I think the alternating long and short vowels look lovely.

Also, since I haven't commented on Øynduyska before: I really enjoyed reading about the use of tense and aspect in the language. The periphrastic constructions remind me of stuff like "fara að (gera)" in Icelandic. I especially like how you've severely restricted the use of the aorist and preterite in a way I hadn't seen before.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:30 am 
Smeric
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Salmoneus wrote:
I'm also glad (/relieved) that I've succesfully been able to create the false impression of knowing my stuff...
It's one of your specialities :-D. (It's also one of mine, according to my family)

Interesting work, by the way

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:34 pm 
Sumerul
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Salmoneus wrote:
In other news: I'm thinking about adding a 'silent e' rule.

b) introduce an etymologically-mostly-justified silent e: varcweðe ech, grąve ech, etc.

b) has the advantage of morphological simplicity, but it's an additional orthographic rule to learn. It makes it look a bit more English; on the other hand, is having silent final letters in a non-English language just a step too far? Can I overcome the instinct to pronounce them? It may make most sense historically.


Does it have to be a silent e though? Why not, say, a silent y?

In your shoes I would have trouble getting past the "Englishness" of (b) but other than that it does seem like the best option. So if another vowel would make sense I'd say use that.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:23 pm 
Smeric
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I'd go with A or B. But why silent "e"? Also, English is far from the only language with silent final letters.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:02 pm 
Sumerul
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I'd go with looking at the history of the orthography and figuring out what would be the outcome of leaving old spellings alone despite the fact that pronunciation has changed (something like D or the silent e?), and what would have been the logic of any spelling reform?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:36 pm 
Sanno
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Echobeats wrote:
Does it have to be a silent e though? Why not, say, a silent y?


I did actually consider a final y for what's currently i, but it could also be justified as a silent letter; so could i. I don't know, though, I just find that very Englishy, visually, and would find it hard to think of it as silent.

Anyway, I'll put orthography to one side for a moment. I think what i'll do is get some translations done, so that the effects can be compared side by side...

First, though, possibly the last grammar post on the language (in the current phase of roll-out)

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:50 pm 
Sanno
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I thought, rather than just dumping a bunch of translations, a teaser might be fun, if anyone would like to play along (if not, never mind)...

Two translations you might recognise. Question 1: what do they mean? Question 2: why? (i.e. have a guess at a gloss and/or etymology)

1. Vor á ði lieg ða rikji, ða mayt ay ða glǫyr, atrách ay ðruch aw tchiya.

and a slightly harder one:
2. Cwam ay ða Ab ova, ða cather ay ða clotcheches leor ta sevha, sam ða syna van Adama ðam ybyld had.

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:40 am 
Smeric
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(1) is "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever (EDIT or any of the variants: world without end, ages of ages)"
ða rikji, ða mayt ay ða glǫyr is easy. Vor á ði lieg was a bit harder, but makes more sense rereading the section on predication.
I have no idea about atrách ay ðruch aw tchiya. (something something through something of something?)

(2) is The LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men / Adam had built.

It's mostly the last bit that helped me; the rest is fairly opaque. Ab could be a cognate of abba? clotcheches kinda looks like clochers maybe? I don't know.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:23 pm 
Sanno
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Ars Lande wrote:
(1) is "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, forever and ever (EDIT or any of the variants: world without end, ages of ages)"
ða rikji, ða mayt ay ða glǫyr is easy. Vor á ði lieg was a bit harder, but makes more sense rereading the section on predication.
I have no idea about atrách ay ðruch aw tchiya. (something something through something of something?)

If it helps, it's broadly "now and for all time".
Quote:
(2) is The LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men / Adam had built.

It's mostly the last bit that helped me; the rest is fairly opaque. Ab could be a cognate of abba? clotcheches kinda looks like clochers maybe? I don't know.

Not bad! Ab is indirectly related to abba, but more closely related to an English word (though it's not a borrowing from English). Clotcheches (a genitive form) is indeed related to French clocher, but I didn't know that until you just taught me that word...

You almost certainly won't get the loans, so I'll just tell you:
- Ab - Lord, authority, particularly religious (though not always). Ultimately from Latin abbas, via Old Irish monks. The monastic system was once extremely important on the islands, and although that was a long time ago a number of religious and political terms derive from that era.
- cathi (g.s. cather) - city. Borrowing from Old Irish. The islands barely even had towns for a long time, so the Irish, discussing the cities of the Bible, just used their own word. Much later, the word by was introduced by the Danes, also meaning 'city' - cathi is primarily used for the settlement, while by is used primarily for the legal/administrative/statistical/etc area, and also for a region of a larger city.
- clotchech (g.s. clotcheches) - tower. Borrowing from Old Irish. Although to be honest I'm not really sure how it ought to end up, it's a bit of a bugger for the sound changes. May have to get back to you on that one... Anyway, the word originally referred to the cloigteach, the round tower attached to some Irish churches and monasteries, on the grounds that these were the only significant tall buildings on the islands for many centuries. The word tǫrn was later introduced from Scandinavia, but that primarily refers to military structures; tawr is from the English, but refers primarily to a structure in a house (a turret or a loft room).

Not entirely fair as a challenge, I suppose...

This one is probably a bit easier:
Swef rassendeli blielasa grǫnna idenn

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:51 am 
Lebom
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I sincerely apologize for sending my request to thread your language about Øynduyska.
Please you tell me if you'll have names for numbers from Øynduyska.
Thank you!

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Today 21.1.2014 my collection includes: I have data for numbers from 21518 ways (both languages. conlangs and natlangs, their dialects, subdialects,... additional versions.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:55 pm 
Sumerul
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Now Øynduyska.really has arrived...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:25 am 
Sanno
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OK, ignore my earlier translation. Better translation examples now available, with extensive explanations, at this blog entry.

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:41 pm 
Sanno
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Colours:

There are eight basic colour terms in Øynduyska.
asól. Strong, deep, or bright blue, not green at all. Also covers much of indigo; much more restricted than English ‘blue’.
grǫnn. Green, green-blue, blue-green, light blue, olive. The colours of vegetation and shallow seas.
yöl. Yellow, particularly bright yellow.
flann. Red, particularly bright red. Also covers much of orange.
flanngrǫnn. Purple.
bląw. Black, including very dark red.
bann. White.
grąw. Grey.

Particularly significant secondary colours include:
glass. Grey-blue, grey-green. The colour of ice and corpses. Also the colour of some grey fur. Subspecies of grónn.
verdi. Vibrant light green; unnatural green; painted green. Subspecies of grónn.
nachtgrónn. Dark navy blue; the colour of night. Subspecies of grónn.
lima. A natural green with substantial yellow in it. Subspecies of grónn.
sárgrǫnn. Yellow tinted with green. The colour of certain pale dead or dying leaves. Subspecies of grónn.
gul. Deep yellow, dark gold, dark orange, yellow-brown. The colour of certain dark dead leaves. Traditionally the colour of brunet hair, though now poetic in this sense. Subspecies of yöl.
náckrað. Pale orange, peach. The colour of ‘white’ human skin, and pale golden sunsets. Subspecies of yöl.
rąw. Dark, burnt red; rusty red; red-brown. The colour of auburn hair (poetically) or red-brown fur. Subspecies of flann.
ráðh. The red of dried blood. Subspecies of flann.
bannráðh. The red of blushing. Subspecies of flann.
pink. Pink. Subspecies of flann.
fiolet. Pale purple. Subspecies of flanngrǫnn.
lilla. Deep, strong purple, particularly of a somewhat blue shade. Subspecies of flanngrǫnn.
corker. Tyrian purple; particularly the purple of rank. Subspecies of flanngrǫnn.
yorm. The colour of dark brown human skin. Subspecies of yöl.
lys. Traditionally the colour of blond hair and ‘fair’ human complexion. Now chiefly poetic as a colour, though retained as a description of people. Subspecies of yöl.
duv. The colour of black hair and ‘dark’ human complexion lighter than yorm. Subspecies of yöl.
brunat. Modern word for brunet hair. Subspecies of yöl.
óban. Modern word for auburn hair. Subspecies of flann.
blǫnd. Modern word for blond hair. Subspecies of yöl.
fląchs. Very pale blond hair; by extension, sometimes used for pale, straw yellows and yellow-greys. Straw itself, however, is more likely sárgrǫnn. Subspecies of yöl.
siylva. Bright, typically reflective grey. The colour of silver, and by extension other pale metals, as well as of moonlight and of grey hair.

[didn't seem worth a blog post]

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But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:13 pm 
Šriftom
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I see you have really changed around the color terms from those inherited from PGmc.

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Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:19 pm 
Smeric
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"gul" also refers to gold, right? Are there any other colour words that have meanings besides their colour? Is "asól" from lāzuward?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:21 pm 
Smeric
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Also, are there any Celtic influences on Øynduyska?

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:55 pm 
Sanno
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mèþru wrote:
"gul" also refers to gold, right?

Rich golden colours, yes. Which sometimes includes the colour of the metal, if there's a bit of copper in it. Mostly, though, when bright and shiny and yellow, it's just 'yöl'. It's always gult, which refers both to the substance and the colour, and gylt, which refers to both the substance and the colour specifically when used as decoration. Sometimes these days it can also be gowld, but usually only when referring to winning a competition.
The apparent connection between 'gul' and 'gult' is of course appealing on a folk etymology level, but it's actually a complete coincidence.
Quote:
Are there any other colour words that have meanings besides their colour?

Do you mean connotations, or physical things? If the former, then of course. If the latter, yes, all the time for rarer colours, but not many from this particular list - though lima is an example (it's also a lime (the fruit)).
Quote:
Is "asól" from lāzuward?

No. What does that mean?


On Celtic influence:
well, obviously the blue/green thing. And the words 'glass', 'flann', 'bann', 'corker', 'yorm' and 'duv'.
[Meanwhile, 'lys', 'lilla', 'fiolet', 'gul', and possibly 'lima' are from Norwegian and/or Danish. The hair colours are from English, as is 'pink'. And 'asól', 'verdi', 'náckradh', and probably 'lima' are from Portuguese. Portuguese hasn't had a massive impact on the language, but Portuguese (and sometims Basque) sailors have visited the islands from time to time, and contributed some words relating to maritime trade, far off parts, and exotic wares.]


Travis: oh, not THAT much!
The big thing is 'green' spreading to cover 'blue', under Celtic influence. 'Blue' meanwhile shifted to very dark blue then to black (and very dark colours generally, which is more likely dark red than dark blue in nature); wiktionary gives 'black' as a meaning for the word in both PGmc and Old Norse, and there's no clear basic 'black' word in PGmc. The rest is mostly just little variations, like the result of the language not having basic words for 'orange' or 'brown'.

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as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!


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