Sound Change Quickie Thread
- KathTheDragon
- Smeric
- Posts: 2139
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
- Location: Brittania
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
You could make them voiceless nasals.
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sotho has *MP *MB > p_h p_>.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Ideas:
Glottalisation/pharyngealisation of plosives followed by rhinoglottophilia.
C > /h/ > /h̃/
/h/ + vowel > /h/ + nasal vowel, followed by the transfer of nasalisation to the next consonant
Glottalisation/pharyngealisation of plosives followed by rhinoglottophilia.
C > /h/ > /h̃/
/h/ + vowel > /h/ + nasal vowel, followed by the transfer of nasalisation to the next consonant
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Didn't Basque have something like *VnV > *Vh̃V > VV̯n?
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Does this set of changes look legit?
pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V
pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It does to me. As I understand it, preaspiration isn't very common, but I think those changes are still plausible.
- KathTheDragon
- Smeric
- Posts: 2139
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:48 am
- Location: Brittania
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I'm curious about the assymetry between ʰp > x and ʰt > θ in _[C#]. Any particular reason?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It looks wrong to me for the same reason.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I didn't even notice that. Oops.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I had two thoughts in that regard:KathTheDragon wrote:I'm curious about the assymetry between ʰp > x and ʰt > θ in _[C#]. Any particular reason?
1. I wanted /ɸ/ to be asymmetric in the group: where /θ x/ can occur in isolation (somewhat more frequently than these three sound changes suggest due to some later sound changes), /ɸ/ always occurs in the cluster /xɸ/.
2. I found acoustically /xɸ/ very easily elided into /x/ in these contexts, whereas /xθ/ seemed to favor /θ/--not very scientific, but it "felt right" to my tongue, if you will.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I've tested number 2 on myself and found it isn't true for me.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I want a pushchain of kʷ > k > ć > č > t > ṭ > pʲ > p > pʷ ... for a vertical vowel inventory. /pʲ/ i slabiodental and therefore has to be spread-lipped, which causes a similar sound to palatalization and is seen as the same by the speakers. ṭ is true dental. I dont see any reason why not to do thius since every indicular link in the chain is attested and there would be very few coalescences (/pʷ/ was rare) but IM not sure mouth shape can change as fluidly as does tongue poisition.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Preaspiration to /x/ is reasonable, but intermediate *xp *xt fricativizing further seems odd. Clusters like these seem to often resist even fairly general fricativization. Compare Proto-Germanic: *pt *kt > *ft *xt and not **fθ **xθ, or modern Greek: φθ χθ: pʰtʰ kʰtʰ > fθ xθ > ft xt.Zaarin wrote:Does this set of changes look legit?
pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Is it plausible to split a uvular series off from a velar series? If so, how?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sure - back velar consonants adjacent to back or more specifically low back vowels, then do something that removes the conditioning environment, e.g. merging low back and low front vowels.StrangerCoug wrote:Is it plausible to split a uvular series off from a velar series? If so, how?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Hmm, that is a fair point.Tropylium wrote:Preaspiration to /x/ is reasonable, but intermediate *xp *xt fricativizing further seems odd. Clusters like these seem to often resist even fairly general fricativization. Compare Proto-Germanic: *pt *kt > *ft *xt and not **fθ **xθ, or modern Greek: φθ χθ: pʰtʰ kʰtʰ > fθ xθ > ft xt.Zaarin wrote:Does this set of changes look legit?
pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Would it be possible to have sound changes first result in /s̺ z̺/ > /ʃ ʒ/, and then have /ʒ dz/ > /z/, so that the most common sibilants in the language are /ʃ/ and /z/?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
s z > ʃ ʒ, no problem.Knit Tie wrote:Would it be possible to have sound changes first result in /s̺ z̺/ > /ʃ ʒ/, and then have /ʒ dz/ > /z/, so that the most common sibilants in the language are /ʃ/ and /z/?
dz > z, no problem
I am, however, a little skeptical of ʒ > z but not ʃ > s.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Is there a separate/ s/ that survives, or is this language entirely without plain /s/? I think Hungarian has/ S z/ as the most common but also has /Z s/ in comparable quantities.
/Z/>/z/ moving alone would be most likely if it shifted to a more open articulation than the voiceless . C.f. d turning dental in some langs but leaving t behind.
/Z/>/z/ moving alone would be most likely if it shifted to a more open articulation than the voiceless . C.f. d turning dental in some langs but leaving t behind.
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Hungarian has plenty of /s/ but not so much /ʒ/. EDIT: Or at least that's my impression. I'm pretty sure about the /s/ part but a bit more uncertain about /ʒ/.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
The proto-language had /t tˤ d dˤ s sˤ z zˤ/ which became /t ts d dz ʃ s ʒ z/ later on. So yeah, there's a plain /s/, it's just rarer than the /ʃ/ and considered marked by the native speakers. And funnily enough, the /z/ really is very strongly dental in the standard dialect.Soap wrote:Is there a separate/ s/ that survives, or is this language entirely without plain /s/? I think Hungarian has/ S z/ as the most common but also has /Z s/ in comparable quantities.
/Z/>/z/ moving alone would be most likely if it shifted to a more open articulation than the voiceless . C.f. d turning dental in some langs but leaving t behind.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Actually, speaking of coronals, what are the people's favourite reasonably-bland coronal consonant systems? I've been stumped as to what I want my conlang's to be in the end and so I think I'd just give somebody here the sincerest form of flattery.
In terms of general phonology, there's a strong voicing distinction in both plosives and fricatives and historical presence of pharyngealised coronals that I'm trying to eliminate through diachronic changes. In terms of particular phonology, as mentoned above, there're /t tˤ d dˤ s sˤ z zˤ ʃ ʃˤ ʒ ʒˤ ɾ ɾˤ l lˤ/ historically, which become /t ts d dz ʃ s ʒ z ʃ ʃ ʃ ʃ ɾ ʒ l l/ later on in the current version, respectively, though I don't quite like how the result sounds.
In terms of general phonology, there's a strong voicing distinction in both plosives and fricatives and historical presence of pharyngealised coronals that I'm trying to eliminate through diachronic changes. In terms of particular phonology, as mentoned above, there're /t tˤ d dˤ s sˤ z zˤ ʃ ʃˤ ʒ ʒˤ ɾ ɾˤ l lˤ/ historically, which become /t ts d dz ʃ s ʒ z ʃ ʃ ʃ ʃ ɾ ʒ l l/ later on in the current version, respectively, though I don't quite like how the result sounds.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Welp, my last question seems to have been to vague, so how about this one:
I want to make Bantu, specifically Swahili, influence to cause development of this post-nasal fortition & voicing:
N(f v p) → mb
Nt → nd
N(s z ts) → ndz
N(ʃ ʒ j) → ɲdʒ, with [dʒ] not being otherwise found anywhere else
N(k g x ɣ) → ŋg
Nw → ŋgw
N(l ɾ) → ndr, which is the only three-consonant cluster allowed in the language
Also due to Bantu influence, the nasal clusters above will simplify to just nasals when preceded by another nasal cluster in the next syllable, e.g.
/imbindi/ → [imbini]
/anrinʃu/ → [andriɲdʒu] → [andriɲu]
/kanɣanwu/ → [kaŋgaŋgwu] → [kaŋgaŋu]
And the resulting /ɲ/ and /ŋ/ are not phonemic, but merely allophones of /m/ or /n/ in the complex environment described above.
Does that look good?
I want to make Bantu, specifically Swahili, influence to cause development of this post-nasal fortition & voicing:
N(f v p) → mb
Nt → nd
N(s z ts) → ndz
N(ʃ ʒ j) → ɲdʒ, with [dʒ] not being otherwise found anywhere else
N(k g x ɣ) → ŋg
Nw → ŋgw
N(l ɾ) → ndr, which is the only three-consonant cluster allowed in the language
Also due to Bantu influence, the nasal clusters above will simplify to just nasals when preceded by another nasal cluster in the next syllable, e.g.
/imbindi/ → [imbini]
/anrinʃu/ → [andriɲdʒu] → [andriɲu]
/kanɣanwu/ → [kaŋgaŋgwu] → [kaŋgaŋu]
And the resulting /ɲ/ and /ŋ/ are not phonemic, but merely allophones of /m/ or /n/ in the complex environment described above.
Does that look good?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How do these changes look?
ts tɬ tɕ→ s ɬ ɕ (but ts' tɬ' tɕ' preserved)
(later)
p’ k’ q’ → pf’ kx’ qχ’ → f’ x’ χ’
f' → f
Assuming an initial inventory without ejective fricatives?
ts tɬ tɕ→ s ɬ ɕ (but ts' tɬ' tɕ' preserved)
(later)
p’ k’ q’ → pf’ kx’ qχ’ → f’ x’ χ’
f' → f
Assuming an initial inventory without ejective fricatives?
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I like the first line, and I'm hard-pressed to come up with a reason to reject the rest.