zompist bboard

WE ARE MOVING - see Ephemera
It is currently Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:05 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:39 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Zaarin wrote:
Vijay wrote:
I find /i e̞ u ɑ/ more likely than /i e̞ o̞ ɑ/.

Some variation of /i e o a/ is pretty common in North America.

Okay, but what about outside of there?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 10:51 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1139
Vijay wrote:
Zaarin wrote:
Vijay wrote:
I find /i e̞ u ɑ/ more likely than /i e̞ o̞ ɑ/.

Some variation of /i e o a/ is pretty common in North America.

Okay, but what about outside of there?

Off the top of my head I can't think of any four vowel systems outside of North America, though I'm sure they exist; every Old World language I can think of at the moment is either three vowel, five vowel, or "monster Indo-European craziness" vowel. :p NB, though, that most four-vowel systems I can think of are transcribed with either /o/ or /u/ by convention, as there tends to be a lot of allophonic variation between [o] and [u] in such languages, so one might just as well call them /i e o~u a/.

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:03 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
Posts: 1228
Location: Scattered disc
Four vowel systems are very common .... it's just that it's usually /a i u ə/, so it's balanced. /a i u ə/ ,might even be the most common system in the entire world.

_________________
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 1:13 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Nah, that would be five-vowel. Old post to the rescue!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:05 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
The working vowel system is below noting my indecision on the mid front vowel's transcription and that having the mid back rounded vowel (/o̞ ⱺ/; last is non-standard but used) felt strange with three unrounded vowels.

Code:
              front back
Close           i
Mid            e̞ ᴇ   ɤ̞
Open                 ɑ


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:11 am 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1139
Not nearly as strange as having no back rounded vowels...

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 9:56 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Could [e̞ʋ~ᴇʋ ɑʋ] be considered vowels since [ʋ] takes [w]'s place? If so, would they be rounded or unrounded?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:50 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Austin, TX, USA
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Could [e̞ʋ~ᴇʋ ɑʋ] be considered vowels since [ʋ] takes [w]'s place?

I don't think so, sorry.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 4:53 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Is /[χ]/ more naturally an allophone of /x/ or /h/? Currently, the relationship is /[x→χ]/ adjacent to /ɑ ⱺ/ regardless of syllable coda/mora or another uvular in the same syllable.


Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Wed May 30, 2018 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:01 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Austin, TX, USA
It definitely makes more sense to me for [x] to be an allophone of /x/ than of /h/. (Even if the symbols used for phonemes are arbitrary anyway).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:37 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:57 pm
Posts: 1228
Location: Scattered disc
This looks like a display issue....some phones can't display the Greek chi symbol so it just appears as a simple x.

No comment/opinion on the question.

_________________
Sunàqʷa the Sea Lamprey says:
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:39 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Austin, TX, USA
I'm on a desktop computer, and I don't see any chi's anywhere on this page.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 7:56 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm
Posts: 1139
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Is /χ/ more naturally an allophone of /x/ or /h/? Currently, the relationship is /x→χ/ adjacent to /ɑ ⱺ/ regardless of syllable coda/mora or another uvular in the same syllable.

[χ] seems more likely to be an allophone of /x/ than /h/ if both /x h/ are phonemic; if not, either one of them could have some pretty broad-ranging allophones (as for example in Japanese or Finnish).

@Vijay: The first symbol in yangfiretiger121's post is definitely chi in my browser.

_________________
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:26 pm 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:25 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: Austin, TX, USA
Aha, it is for me, too, if I use Chrome instead of Mozilla! :)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 7:52 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Revised vowel system:

Code:
              front central back
High            i      ʉ
Mid             ᴇ            ⱺ
Low                          ɑ


However, words with a consonant immediately followed by <ru>, such as Grut, maintain the uvulars in front of /ʉ/. Thus, ['ɢᴿut] becomes ['ɢᴿʉt].


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:35 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 4545
Location: the Imperial Corridor
You can have syllabic labiodental approximant / labiodentalized [u] as a vowel, e.g. Nias. If there are sequences that behave phonologically like diphthongs (what does this mean for your language?) but are phonetically realized as a vowel followed by a labiodental approximant, I would expect /u/ to also be labiodentalized but these sequences could be analyzable as diphthongs.

_________________
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:25 am 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Mon May 29, 2017 11:22 am
Posts: 114
Would [y ɔ] be believable transcriptions of [ᴇʋ ɑʋ] as vowels, or would [ᴇʋ ɑʋ] need different transcriptions?

Is [m n→ɴ] adjacent to back vowels a likely assimilation?

Are [pʃ bʒ] better described as bilabial-postalveolar ([p̱ʃ ḇʒ]) or labiodental-postalveolar ([p̪ʃ b̪ʒ])?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group