Flags

[Foolster41]

Other flags are on the Saltha wiki, though reading that article I want to change most of them.

Edit: Updated URL to new wiki

[Dewrad]

@Dewrad: Come on, you're being a bit harsh on the man. Yes, the guide you've posted is a very good one, and yes, some flags can be very ugly indeed; but people can make ugly flags if they want to. It's certainly good to offer advice on how to improve a flag according the the opinions of yourself and the people of NAVA, but you can't force people to follow it.

I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything, save perhaps break the whole "you can't criticise Art ^_^" schtick that the ZBB is fucking rife with.

Essentially, the bottom line is that sometimes your stuff is crap. Be it flags, maps, scripts, languages, whatever. It's not just a matter of it being in the eye of the beholder, nor is it all handwavable by stating that being pleasing to the creator is enough. As soon as you publish something, share it with the world, it is ripe for criticism (and I mean that in the "literary" sense, not just the snark sense). If you keep it to yourself, fine, it's only you that you have to please, but as soon as you subject it to somebody else's opinions you have to realise that their opinions might not agree with yours. And, you know, if enough people disagree with your opinion at some point you might as well ask yourself if it's them who are correct, not you.

The ZBB is too scared of this kind of thing. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What "the conlanging community" (© Saizai et al.) needs is not networking or exposure, but some kind of internal apparatus of criticism. Arguably, it's not "Art" until somebody says it's not art.

[Christopher Schröder]

I have been dusting off an old conworld of late, and made rough drafts of flags for the seven large sovereign states that exist therein (all named after former Habsburg dominions at present) —

Bohemia —


Cilecia —


Illyria (unchanged from last post) —


Istria —


Servia —


Venezzia —


Sicilia —

[maıráí]

Ooooooo, I have to ask, can I upload, say...Moi Kuan Clan crests? Moi Ku is one city, so there aren't really country flags, but most clans, from the huge ones of 10k+ people to the ones of families of three have their own crest.

Not that I'm going to include every single one.

[Unbidden]

@Dewrad: Come on, you're being a bit harsh on the man. Yes, the guide you've posted is a very good one, and yes, some flags can be very ugly indeed; but people can make ugly flags if they want to. It's certainly good to offer advice on how to improve a flag according the the opinions of yourself and the people of NAVA, but you can't force people to follow it.

I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything, save perhaps break the whole "you can't criticise Art ^_^" schtick that the ZBB is fucking rife with.

Essentially, the bottom line is that sometimes your stuff is crap. Be it flags, maps, scripts, languages, whatever. It's not just a matter of it being in the eye of the beholder, nor is it all handwavable by stating that being pleasing to the creator is enough. As soon as you publish something, share it with the world, it is ripe for criticism (and I mean that in the "literary" sense, not just the snark sense). If you keep it to yourself, fine, it's only you that you have to please, but as soon as you subject it to somebody else's opinions you have to realise that their opinions might not agree with yours. And, you know, if enough people disagree with your opinion at some point you might as well ask yourself if it's them who are correct, not you.

The ZBB is too scared of this kind of thing. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What "the conlanging community" (© Saizai et al.) needs is not networking or exposure, but some kind of internal apparatus of criticism. Arguably, it's not "Art" until somebody says it's not art.

Constructive criticism is fine.

Trolling around and saying that everything you don't like sucks achieves absolutely nothing.

[Delthayre]

Why does anyone use the phrase, "constructive criticism," anymore? People are only going to laugh at it, or worse.

[Dewrad]

Constructive criticism is fine.

How on earth would you know that? Have you actually seen any actual constructive criticism on this board? Any helpful reviews of conlangs?

No. Even in a thread entitled "Stereotypes/Bad conlangs", ZBBers are too reticent to actually name any bad conlangs. I honestly don't know why: it's certainly not because ZBBers as a breed are a "nice" bunch deep down. Perhaps it's something more apotropaic: "if I don't badmouth someone else's conlang nobody will badmouth my own."

Trolling around and saying that everything you don't like sucks achieves absolutely nothing.

Let me pause here and sigh deeply while contemplating the best route by which your sanctimonious little hide might be dragged towards Nibbana.

I haven't actually said that everything I don't like sucks (although it clearly does, obv.), what I have said is that there are things in this thread which are ugly (by most standards, that is, not by some arcane and deliberately obtuse personal metric of beauty), here is something which will help future things be less ugly. It's like giving an acne-ridden teen a box of clearasil. I'm not saying that you're ugly, because you are a beautiful and special individual, but here's something that might help the rest of the world see that.

Now, while we're recapitulating, what you have done is posited the standard ZBB defense of "wouldn't it be nice if everyone were nice?" This I have to congratulate you upon, as you've only been here what, two weeks, but you're fitting in to the local culture of enabling so well. What would have been exciting and interesting, and possibly of aid in the furtherance of other people's abilities, would have been something less nicey-nicey-don't-rupture-my-hernia and more "Come on you fuckers, show me something interesting for a change." You know, challenging.

[Viktor77]

I have to agree with Dewrad here for once. It is a tendency among conlangers, perhaps due to them often being what society would call "geeks", to produce some pretty bad artifacts in the way of art. Not that I'm saying I'm an expert, and certainly I can't speak for Deward, but having studied art and art history intensively I find what Dewrad has to say in the way of criticising flags to be quite accurate. Not every concountry is a Turkmenistan or Lithuania, some can be, and arguable should be Czech Republics or Chiles. People have to learn to accept criticism so that they may produce better work, especially where art is concerned.

Heck, as a personal example, Dewrad once flamed me for my grammar. But did I respond in rudeness to him? No, I took what he had to say and considered the pros and cons of it to see if there was anything of value I might have wanted to take away from it. That's called accepting "constructive criticism."

[Unbidden]

...what I have said is that there are things in this thread which are ugly (by most standards, that is, not by some arcane and deliberately obtuse personal metric of beauty)

Well, since I've been unable to find the memo that says you opinion counts as everyone's opinion I think YOU are using an "arcane and deliberately obtuse personal metric of beauty."

Now, while we're recapitulating, what you have done is posited the standard ZBB defense of "wouldn't it be nice if everyone were nice?" This I have to congratulate you upon, as you've only been here what, two weeks, but you're fitting in to the local culture of enabling so well. What would have been exciting and interesting, and possibly of aid in the furtherance of other people's abilities, would have been something less nicey-nicey-don't-rupture-my-hernia and more "Come on you fuckers, show me something interesting for a change." You know, challenging.

You think that random abuse will make people rise to the challenge and do things to suit you standards?

Sure, we could get everyone here to decry the foulness in what ever form it takes(even though this can be subjective). What are you hoping to achieve? Elitism? Sanctimony? It sounds like the local culture rejects that crap and for a good dam reason!

Being polite never hurt anyone, apart from those self centered individuals who'd rather kick people around.

@Viktor77: Right, he posted the flag guide and that was constructive. Everything else was not.

Sure in conlanging, you can do a lot of stupid things. It doesn't take much to point that out to someone and help then to learn a little more.

But dragging down someones art is practically pointless.

[Catscratch]

Would you like me to give examples, or would that offend your "everyone is special" principles too much?

I say put your money where you mouth is. If my flag is hideous, I sure would like to know. It's not like I haven't heard it all from Aszev anyway.

[Viktor77]

But dragging down someones art is practically pointless.

Sorry, but that's the entire point of art. Art has rules and though they change over time, you'll find they are very much consistent, so follow them. One should not neglect learning what a complementary color or analogous color is anymore than they should neglect learning what a plosive is or what the dative case is.

I say put your money where you mouth is. If my flag is hideous, I sure would like to know. It's not like I haven't heard it all from Aszev anyway.

FWIW, though this isn't directed at me, the logo is too large, somewhat trite, and should not overlap the tricolor like it does, especially where those tiny little points cross the bands. Not only is it not aesthetically pleasing, but it's not economical for manufacturing or sewing. On the plus side, the colors are, FTMP, nice choices and nicely offset (I would've avoided the yellow myself (and the band is too thin to begin with) but meh).

[nils]

Épemale Republic

Oh I like this one. Maybe try with a slightly deeper blue.

Flag of Santh (The dominant religion in Saltha)

And I like this one too. I think I should try some logo designs using stylized suns similar to what you two have done - thanks, that was really awesome for inspiration

[Catscratch]

FWIW, though this isn't directed at me, the logo is too large, somewhat trite, and should not overlap the tricolor like it does, especially where those tiny little points cross the bands. Not only is it not aesthetically pleasing, but it's not economical for manufacturing or sewing. On the plus side, the colors are, FTMP, nice choices and nicely offset (I would've avoided the yellow myself (and the band is too thin to begin with) but meh).

See, that wasn't so bad. You might be right about the gold fimbriation.

Anyway, I think what Unbidden is trying to say is people should use some tact. ^_^

[Torco]

I dunno, man, I think it's pretty constructive to say "it doesn't look good to me" and it's way more so to point out why. I agree with Dew, the zeeb is often too timid with regards to criticism. Of course, being rude isn't good either, but you can say harsh things without being an ass.

For instance, that pentagonal thingie everyone loved, I didn't. maybe an outline of Or or something like that. Schrader's flags are awesome, save for Servia, which I dunno, besides the contrast thing [I know there's like a band of gold, but it doesn't matter], looks ugly to me. Maybe a brighter red... all four quadrants being the same color, either that burgundy-like thing or that beautiful blue, would look awesome.

[Unbidden]

But dragging down someones art is practically pointless.

Sorry, but that's the entire point of art. Art has rules and though they change over time, you'll find they are very much consistent, so follow them. One should not neglect learning what a complementary color or analogous color is anymore than they should neglect learning what a plosive is or what the dative case is.

But you see I don't buy that idea.

The humans that made cave paintings, should we define their works as non-art because they probably didn't have art schools that taught them about colour theory?

Should we say that tribal music isn't really music because they don't use the same scales as us or write using standard musical notation?

Say there was a race of aliens that for philosophical reasons decried art theory etc. What if their main artistic medium was to eat as much food as they could till they vomited it up onto a canvas which they then freeze dried and hung with pride upon their walls.

Do I like the idea or the imagery that is conveyed in their art? No, but I wouldn't call them idiots.

If one of them wanted to learn human art I would teach them as much as I could.

If they called human art profane and started kicking up a fuss I would start to dislike them.

But if they had a cure for cancer or a solar cell that was 100% efficient would we say "oh, that’s nice but we'd rather stick with our technology?" No.

If the aliens turn the curing of cancer on their plant into a nationwide televised space opera hosted by their equivalent of Whoopi Goldberg good for them.

There is a differnce in my mind between art (eg flags) and science (conlanging). Which is not to say that they don't overlap (alien space operas).

[Miiil]

[quote="Qwynegold"]No offense intended, but are you by any chance color blind?[quote]
I dont really like the colours, and i am red/green colour blind

Heres a coat of arms that i think Dewrad will like

[Unbidden]

You need to add another " at the end of Qwynegold

[din]

The Ukraine?



Anyway; I think the ZBB does shy away from criticism, and then there comes a point where somebody is fed up with the niceness, and goes in the complete opposite direction. And neither will really get us any further.

[Unbidden]

The Ukraine?



Anyway; I think the ZBB does shy away from criticism, and then there comes a point where somebody is fed up with the niceness, and goes in the complete opposite direction. And neither will really get us any further.

Well, if this is a problem maybe we should find a solution?

[din]

Revolution.

[Unbidden]

Revolution.

Hmm, maybe I should start a thread in NOTA and try and kick the zbb's cogs into gear...

[Astraios]

I like this one a lot, but the shades of color are a little "off".

Thanks, I'll sort them out eventually. I was a little annoyed at the colours myself, MS Paint fails.

[Catscratch]

[Viktor77]

They're all the same, and kind of boring, just a bunch of red x's.

[Trailsend]

Really? They all work for me.

I like the first, personally. Though when folks need to put together a makeshift flag, I'd expect the emblem to simplify to a more red-cross-ish shape.