Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[Skomakar'n]

dalø 'panda' now comes from *(ŋu)tax-lu-ua 'man from the forest' (with the first syllable truncated somehow)

This is the same meaning as orangutan, isn't it?

Indeed - orangutan is plausibly from orang hutan, meaning forest-man (except Malay is head-first).

This is one of these lovely coincidences, as the fur of the animal is orange, too, but this has nothing to do with the name. I love these things.

[dunomapuka]

oh boy! Lotoka looks cool. I was just thinking the other day about what the Fmana-hŋ-Talam language should look like - it should presumably be closely related to Lotoka, right? The Lotoka would have been an offshoot of that northern-migrating branch of Peninsular. I guess they hit the Dagæm Islands on the way too? Maybe there's some small number of Peninsular speakers left there, like a little enclave surrounded by Edastean.

[Zhen Lin]

oh boy! Lotoka looks cool. I was just thinking the other day about what the Fmana-hŋ-Talam language should look like - it should presumably be closely related to Lotoka, right? The Lotoka would have been an offshoot of that northern-migrating branch of Peninsular. I guess they hit the Dagæm Islands on the way too? Maybe there's some small number of Peninsular speakers left there, like a little enclave surrounded by Edastean.

I had a prescribed list of sound changes, which will get something that looks like the third column in this table, if I remember my intentions. It looks like Lotoka in a few ways (open syllables, no consonant clusters), but I suspect it won't really be close enough to be related.

[Corumayas]

I had a prescribed list of sound changes...

Oh wow, I don't think I've seen that page before!

It looks like Lotoka in a few ways (open syllables, no consonant clusters), but I suspect it won't really be close enough to be related.

To be honest, though, I don't see how it could realistically not be related. I mean, the Lotoka pretty much have to have travelled via Fmana-hŋ-Talam to get to where they are.

Unless the classical-era language of Fmana-hŋ-Talam is the result of a later secondary migration from the Peninsula, or something? I guess that could work.

[Zhen Lin]

It looks like Lotoka in a few ways (open syllables, no consonant clusters), but I suspect it won't really be close enough to be related.

To be honest, though, I don't see how it could realistically not be related. I mean, the Lotoka pretty much have to have travelled via Fmana-hŋ-Talam to get to where they are.

I meant linguistically, rather than in terms of the scenario - if you followed that list of sound changes, you'd end up with something phonologically similar but the precise outcome would be quite different, e.g. /urisamo/ vs /mySowo/ and /tete/ vs /pado/.

I'm still not happy about Vylessa conjugation... fernēlyskípsi, for example, sounds wrong (and is rather long at 5 syllables and the meter feels quite bad). I suspect the problem is that there are too many consecutive high vowels - Ancient Greek didn't exactly have an abundance of high vowels, as far as I can tell.

[dunomapuka]

I suggest putting that sketch to a different purpose and designing something closer to Lotoka for Fmana-hŋ-Talam. (as soon as anyone's interested in doing it.)

[dunomapuka]

The Takuña and Proto-Nualis-Takuña materials are offline - does anyone have a copy?

Actually, I just noticed that Dewrad's site is also offline, so we're missing the Adāta and Proto-Western materials too.

[Corumayas]

The Takuña and Proto-Nualis-Takuña materials are offline - does anyone have a copy?

They're actually still online-- the links on the wiki just haven't been updated since TzirTzi changed hosts a while back. Until someone gets around to fixing that, you can access them from http://tzirtzi.ipage.com/.

EDIT: Ok, I think all those links are fixed now.

Actually, I just noticed that Dewrad's site is also offline, so we're missing the Adāta and Proto-Western materials too.

That is inconvenient. Dewrad, what's up?

[Zhen Lin]

There's finally enough data to draw a real cognate table for Peninsular! There are some interesting trends: First, consider the 1SG pronouns:

PPI: *fŋ-(rix)
G: /vúʀɛ/
M: /həʁeh/
K: /hɑ̃rɛ/
V: /ɦʉdrɛː/
L: /we/

It looks like most languages adopt the -rix ending, and all lenite */f/ in one way or another.

And then the word for "fisher(man)":

PPI: *thuri-ar-xa
G: /tʰiʀʌʀʕʌ/
M: /tuʁəha/
K: /tʰɛrː/
V: /tʰyːrera/
L: /tuja/

Aspiration is directly preserved in G, K and V, and indirectly in L (where plain plosives show up as voiced plosives). I think M loses the aspiration distinction, but I'm not certain. (On the other hand, aspiration isn't directly described as a PPI feature, so perhaps it's more a common innovation than a shared retention?)

It also seems as if G and M are Äschlaut languages - clearly so in the case of G, which has a sibilant reflex of PPI */ç/, and marginally in the case of M, the diagnostic being a dorsal reflex of */r/ and retention of PPI laryngeals. (I haven't looked closely, but it feels as if G would be the Hittite of PPI and secure the reconstruction of PPI laryngeals?)

[dunomapuka]

Cedh, do you have the sound changes for PPI to Lotoka? I'd love to have a look over those.

[Cedh]

I've started with the list of changes that Zhen Lin linked a few posts above, up to the "Common Ehlaut" stage. Lotoka also shares the Consonant vocalisation phase right after that, but with /m̩ n̩ ŋ̩ r̩ l̩/ becoming /ũ ĩ ɨ̃ ɑ æ/ in all positions (with the nasal vowels having the same lowered/fronted allophones as oral vowels). After that, the development is as follows:

- [ʝ] > [j]
- horizontal diphthongs monophthongise to their highest/ most fronted component before [l ç j]
- near-close vowels become close-mid vowels
- [ʉ ɞ] > [y ø]
- vowels after aspirated resonants become long
- all fricatives become voiceless
- plosives in clusters with another obstruent become voiceless
- plosives become voiced between vowels and initially, except when aspirated
- aspiration is lost
- [p t k] are dropped after another plosive, with compensatory vowel rounding if the dropped consonant is [p]
- plosives are dropped before nasals
- high vowels become semivowels in intervocalic position
- monophthongisation (long vowels participate in monophthongisation only sporadically; also, monophthongisation that occurs before the loss of laryngeals often gives short vowels instead of the expected long one). This and the preceding change remain active for a few centuries.
-- + [e ɜ ɨ i] > [iː] (both directions, i.e. affects both [ie] and [ei]; the same holds for other contractions)
-- [y] + [ø y u ɨ i] > [yː]
-- [e] + [ɛ e ɜ ɨ] > [eː]
-- [ø] + [y ø œ e ɜ o] > [øː]
-- [o] + [u o ɔ ɜ ʌ] > [oː]
-- [ɛ] + [ɛ æ ɜ ʌ] > [ɛː]
-- [æ] + [æ ɑ ɜ ʌ] > [æː]
-- [ɒ] + [ɒ ɔ o ɑ ɜ ʌ] > [ɒː]
-- [ɑ] + [ɜ ʌ ɑ] > [ɑː]
-- [æ] + [e] > [ɛː]
-- + [ɜ] > [ɨː]
-- + [æ] > [eː]
-- [o] + [y] > [øː]
-- sequences of two like vowels become a single long vowel
- laryngeals are lost with compensatory lengthening of preceding vowels
- [ɸ] > [w]
- [w] > 0 / _[+round], [+round+back]_
- [j] > 0 between any two of [i ɨ y e ø]
- [ni ŋi] > [ɲ] before another vowel
- vowels preceding [ɲ] are fronted
- coda nasals are lost with compensatory nasalisation
- [æ ʌ ɑ] become [a] when long, nasalised, or when adjacent to a vowel or a labial consonant, and merge with [ɒ] otherwise
- [ɜ ɛ œ ɔ ɒ] merge with [e e ø o o]
- [s] > [ʃ] between vowels and initially
- any consonant > 0 adjacent to [s]
- coda obstruents > 0
- coda [l] >
- [i ɨ e] > [y y ø] adjacent to [ʃ], except when word-initial
- > [y ø] after [ɲ ŋ]
- [ɨ] > [e]
- any combination of two different short high vowels > [yː]
- any combination of a short high and a short mid vowel of different rounding > [øː]
- vowel length is lost
- epenthethic [ɰ] appears between two adjacent vowels
- [ɰ] > [w] after
- [ɰ] > [j] after [i e y ø]
- [ɰ] > [g] otherwise
- > [e] after [j]
- > [o] after [w]

[Radius Solis]

Pursuant to this thread I must confess I've had some... notions. Notions about a book, an actual physical book with a spiffy Yonagu-stamped cover and lots of hard solid turnable pages that are filled up with Akana.

It would take work. It would take new book-only contributions combined with editing existing text from the wiki. It would take reaching an agreement about legalities and ownership between... god knows how many... people who have had something they created enter Akana canon. It would take love, sweat, tears. And forget about profiting, very likely it would be a financial net loss - let's not kid ourselves, there's probably next to zero market outside the ZBB cocoon (though I'd be happy to have Zomp bang our drum to the rest of the world too, why not, might help it reach the break-even point).

Despite these obvious obstacles, there is a little gleam in my eye.

As we approach the fifth anniversary of Akana's inception, with a reconstruction game and two derivation relays under our collective belt, with a large and rich body of work now enshrined on the wiki, our own forum, our own sub-section of the ZBB (despite its confinement to a single thread, it feels like that), it seems to me that Akana has - largely - grown up. And what do grown-up creations do? They get themselves published, that's what.

My thoughts about an Akana book:
* sticking to what we know, it should be written in an encyclopedic tone
* unlike the wiki format, it should be tightly organized and focused on conveying the major and most central Akana topics (i.e. mostly the Aiwa sphere) in better depth
* I don't know what LCK sales have been like, but I don't think in our case that "rehash of a free website" is likely to sell, so we not should try to fill the same role as the wiki - instead of broad-ranging material, more a case of picking core things and doing them up really well
* I'm thinking the central material should be organized and edited to tell an over-arching and unifying story, a historical tale of how the variously-peopled Aiwa region has developed over time, perhaps complete with a gentle moral lesson or two along the way
* A little less focus on conlangs and a little more on the setting - and wherever conlangs come into it, a little more focus on using them and a little less on describing them
* there absolutely must be material available nowhere else (preferably at least 50%), or the book wouldn't even sell well to ZBBers. Ideas for new material:
- new conlangs
- new or deeper cultural descriptions
- stories set in Akana
- historical narrative to stitch everything together
- "flavor" snippets scattered throughout (e.g. common expressions written in their native Akana languages; quotes from in-world characters; etc.)
- maybe even a short story at the end that's written in a conlang, with no translation provided, as a puzzle for readers to work out

What I'm prepared to do:
A lot of writing. Historical narrative is something I seem to be decent at, and I can definitely throw in a conlang description. Perhaps a more fully-fleshed description of Tlaliolz or Kiizwaye, or perhaps something totally new.
A lot of editing. Though I realize that's a big part of what Zompist is selling, frankly I don't know that we could afford to pay for a full package of it, when I'm not too shabby at text editing and presentation myself. (But, I take a long time at it.)

What I'm not really prepared to do:
Pay very much. We'd either have to pool contributions or do nearly all the work ourselves. Or some combination thereof. I live on public assistance (disability), and let me tell you, in the United States that is not really enough to get by.
Take on the whole task myself. It's too big. You all know me by now: though I'm always full of ideas, I take forever to get anywhere with them, and besides which point this has always been a collaboratively created conworld and I see no reason a book, if there is to be one, should be different. I do great as part of a team, or even leading one, but set me to work by myself and I'm just as likely to produce nothing at all. I will not pursue this alone.

------

This post is to sound out everyone else's thoughts on a possible book and to explore possibilities. I am completely open to reaching a consensus of "no way Jose", and in a way that might be a relief as we're talking about a lot of work here. There are no wrong answers, and I'm hoping to hear from anyone who reads this post.

[Salmoneus]

I'd just like to pop in and apologise. The last thing I did here was agitate for the Akana Forum. Now I don't even know what the link is.

My attention runs in spurts, and unfortunately collaborative projects don't stand still while I'm busy elsewhere, so I end up with zero idea of what's going on. Hence, not even daring to open this thread for months at a time.


Anyway: personally, I don't see the point of a book. At least, not at this stage.

EDIT: while I'm at it, here're my other problems with Akana:
1. Lack of quality control. Some stuff is brilliant, other stuff is quite newbish. This springs from the open and inviting structure of it.
2. Lack of focus. Thing A will be developed rapidly to the point where it restricts how Thing B can really be developed. If you're working on Thing B, this is irritating. It seems to evolve toward a "survival of the fastest" premise. The bit of Akana I enjoyed was when it was a small bunch of us talking about every development as it was developed, so that we could all feel involved in it and could tie different parts together.

Unfortunately, although I'd like to be part of a collaborative world that worked differently, the cadre-model doesn't really seem to work (I guess because many of us have short attention spans). Hence the failure of every other collaborative project (Kutjara particularly).

[dunomapuka]

The bit of Akana I enjoyed was when it was a small bunch of us talking about every development as it was developed, so that we could all feel involved in it and could tie different parts together.

Fortunately, the core group of us working on it is still pretty small, small enough to feel like a conversation. I do wish there was more consistent open discussion of what everyone was doing. I know you're busy with your own project, but come drop in once in a while! I always liked your contributions.

In the spirit of which: I'm not doing anything at the moment. Last major work I did was to translate a recipe (adapted from some medieval European chicken stew) into Namɨdu. I made up a bunch of words for it, but haven't added them to the lexicon. I also have a second recipe in the works. This second one is less rich people's banquet-ish spectacle-food and more authentic street food.

Also, the forum is here: http://akana.dreamersdisease.de/

[Fruithat]

Also, the forum is here: http://akana.dreamersdisease.de/

Were you inspired by the New Radicals song?

[Cedh]

Pursuant to this thread I must confess I've had some... notions. Notions about a book, an actual physical book with a spiffy Yonagu-stamped cover and lots of hard solid turnable pages that are filled up with Akana.

If we had an Akana book, I would definitely be proud of that. However, I'm personally more interested in a more comprehensive web presence; IMHO it would be a pity if some of the best texts about Akana were only available in that book.

That said, I'm definitely in favor of a collaborative effort to make Akana more in-depth. Partly by adding to the wiki and improving existing content, and maybe partly in the form of a set of static web pages, similar to Zomp's Virtual Verduria.

I'm thinking the central material should be organized and edited to tell an over-arching and unifying story, a historical tale of how the variously-peopled Aiwa region has developed over time, perhaps complete with a gentle moral lesson or two along the way

I agree.

* A little less focus on conlangs and a little more on the setting - and wherever conlangs come into it, a little more focus on using them and a little less on describing them

I agree, even more strongly

* Ideas for new material:
- new conlangs
- new or deeper cultural descriptions
- stories set in Akana
- historical narrative to stitch everything together
- "flavor" snippets scattered throughout (e.g. common expressions written in their native Akana languages; quotes from in-world characters; etc.)
- maybe even a short story at the end that's written in a conlang, with no translation provided, as a puzzle for readers to work out

All this sounds good too, especially the stories and the quotes.

What I'm prepared to do:
A lot of writing. Historical narrative is something I seem to be decent at

This is something we can also use for web content I've been meaning to write up some more detailed history for a long time, but I rarely get very far with that on my own. There are always some issues that need to be discussed with others who are "in charge" of nearby cultures, but these discussions often don't get very far either because of the "lack of focus" mentioned by Sal.

Lack of focus. Thing A will be developed rapidly to the point where it restricts how Thing B can really be developed. If you're working on Thing B, this is irritating. It seems to evolve toward a "survival of the fastest" premise.

That's what the forum is for, to facilitate more focussed and more long-term discussion. We should use it more.

Lack of quality control. Some stuff is brilliant, other stuff is quite newbish. This springs from the open and inviting structure of it.

True. This has been bothering me for quite some time too, but it's a central part of the Akana project. Many of the relay languages were created by people who were relatively new to conlanging at the time, and the original two-weeks schedule meant that even more experienced people could not produce much more than a short sketch. The easiest way to cope with this is to pretend that the lack of realism in some of the languages is due to the description being based on scanty in-world research. Personally I would also support a (not too drastic) revision of some existing material, as we have already done in a few cases (Ayāsthi, Ndok Aisô, the Æðadĕ and Aθáta lexicon expansions, Thokyunèhòta/Naxuutayi, and most recently Lotoka), but of course this would preferrably entail the cooperation or at least consent of the original creator.

Another quality issue, for me, is that some of the most brilliant stuff is unfinished and doesn't look too likely to be added to ATM (I'm thinking of Merneha here).

The bit of Akana I enjoyed was when it was a small bunch of us talking about every development as it was developed, so that we could all feel involved in it and could tie different parts together.

Fortunately, the core group of us working on it is still pretty small, small enough to feel like a conversation. I do wish there was more consistent open discussion of what everyone was doing.

Indeed. It's much more fun when there is active discussion, and more productive too: we can often tie together some loose ends, and I usually have a lot of new ideas for Akana during such periods. When the level of discussion is low, I tend to focus on silent conlanging instead, which is nice, but not quite as satisfying...

Also, the forum is here: http://akana.dreamersdisease.de/

Were you inspired by the New Radicals song?

The domain name is inspired by the New Radicals, yes.

[Basilius]

[First... Cedh: I am really terribly sorry for not commenting on the Lotoka stuff; people have already told you it's cool, and it is, and I was watching :) - There are things to discuss, I think I'll start doing so a bit later on the Akana Forum, not to mess up the discussion of the topic of general importance which Radius initiated.]

Radius: it's a really big and important job that you are undertaking!

It would take reaching an agreement about legalities and ownership between... god knows how many... people who have had something they created enter Akana canon.

Only if you mean quoting whole articles (or large prtions thereof) literally, I think. If you retell most of the stuff in your own words, the words are yours; one cannot prohibit writing *about* a project of this sort, I believe... So you'll probably need an explicit approval only from those people from whom you wish to borrow whole texts.

OTOH there may appear some problems in the future, so maybe your book project is a good pretext to start thinking. For example, what is going to happen if someone wishes to create a commercial product (like a game or an animation series) using the Akana world as its setting? Who should they negotiate with? I've asked questions about such potential issues around collaborative projects several times in different communities, and still I have no idea even about where to look for advice.

For example, is it possible to register a legal entity of some sort (like, a foundation) governed by a board elected by (mostly?) anonymous participants of an online community?

* sticking to what we know, it should be written in an encyclopedic tone

Another idea, which you may deem worth considering or not. Akana is one of very few (?) successful collaborative projects in its genre, and as such can be of interest to people who are not involved in conlanging/conworlding themselves. So in fact the book can also introduce people to diachronic conlanging, various worldbuilding issues, etc; for some, it may turn out to offer the first occasion of contact with this whole business, which I think would be a good thing.

* there absolutely must be material available nowhere else (preferably at least 50%), or the book wouldn't even sell well to ZBBers.

...and...

IMHO it would be a pity if some of the best texts about Akana were only available in that book.

I second Cedh here. Also, if you realize that the book won't pay back financially, then the uniqueness of its content isn't really an issue; I think it should rather be viewed as a way to spread the info to people who'll never google for proper terms to find Akana online - but whose attention can be caught by an unusual book title in a bookstore or on the Amazon website.

What I'm not really prepared to do:
Pay very much. We'd either have to pool contributions or do nearly all the work ourselves.

Pay? you pay? to whom? I believe such things are done just for the fun of it... or just aren't :)

Where you'll certainly need to pay is printer's services...

Salmoneus: my feeling is very much the same in many points, but I think we can (~should) try to work it out.

For example...

Lack of focus. Thing A will be developed rapidly to the point where it restricts how Thing B can really be developed. If you're working on Thing B, this is irritating. It seems to evolve toward a "survival of the fastest" premise.

That's what the forum is for, to facilitate more focussed and more long-term discussion. We should use it more.

What if we create a sticky topic there to inform each other about things we are busy with - *and* about things where we need each others' help?

(A raw idea, I know; please help to work it out)

Also,

Lack of quality control. Some stuff is brilliant, other stuff is quite newbish. This springs from the open and inviting structure of it.

True. This has been bothering me for quite some time too, but it's a central part of the Akana project. Many of the relay languages were created by people who were relatively new to conlanging at the time, and the original two-weeks schedule meant that even more experienced people could not produce much more than a short sketch. The easiest way to cope with this is to pretend that the lack of realism in some of the languages is due to the description being based on scanty in-world research. Personally I would also support a (not too drastic) revision of some existing material, as we have already done in a few cases (Ayāsthi, Ndok Aisô, the Æðadĕ and Aθáta lexicon expansions, Thokyunèhòta/Naxuutayi, and most recently Lotoka), but of course this would preferrably entail the cooperation or at least consent of the original creator.

- I propose that we canonize the first submitted presentation of each conlang (especially where we cannot contact its author anymore) as an in-world thing: a translation (and not necessarily a very accurate one) of a grammar or an article written by an Akanian scholar. Afterwards, we can treat such texts basically the same way as today's linguistics treats missionnaire grammars of 16th century: very important sources, but written by non-professionals and never exhaustive.

(There is still an issue here too, since the authors weren't warned that their creations will be used this way, but at least the unmodified original contribution will be there forever.)

[the duke of nuke]

I'm afraid I'm too busy currently to post anything extensive, I'd like to say that I'm very much in favour of this. Yes, I've been relatively inactive, but my attention too comes and goes, and it helps me a lot to know that other people are still at it I agree with pretty much all of Radius' ideas, particularly on adding to the setting and focusing a little less strongly on the languages. I also like Basilius' idea that this could become a way to get more people interested in world-building and maybe provide information on the process.

As for the actual production of a book, I can't provide much in the way of money (student!) but I'm happy to do work writing and editing. Though my conlanging is inexpert, I am happy to do more descriptive work (broadly similar to what I've done for Isho'u 'Ohu), short stories, and other "flavour" snippets, as Radius puts it. This would also be useful for a more substantial Web presence.

And we really do need to use to forum more! I've been posting there occasionally and waiting a long time for any response

[dunomapuka]

New discussion of Isles migrations posted here.

[Basilius]

I've just sketched a Glottalic Theory for Proto-Isles.

[Corumayas]

Sorry I've been absent lately-- I've been very busy the past couple of weeks, and will probably continue to be fairly busy over the next few months (at least); but I do have some blocks of free time, e.g. today and the first half of next week.


1
About Radius' idea: I think I somewhat agree with Salmoneus, in that I don't really feel like we're ready to write a book just yet... there's still so much (including some fundamental things like geography and biology) that feels unsettled to me.

The idea is intriguing though, and I think we could make it a longer-term goal, something to work on in the (maybe not-too-distant) future. We'd need to come up with a format that could work well as a collaboration. I think it'd probably be most successful if the book was made up of several chunks, each written by a single author (but subject to review by the whole team). Some ideas:

-a history of the Aiwa sphere, with each chapter by a different author (would require the most coordination and planning; we'd probably have to design the overall structure of the book first, and then everyone would be bound by that)
-a less-structured collection of articles on Akanaran topics (might fit us best, since it'd allow everyone to choose whatever topic they find interesting... on the other hand it's not very different from the wiki)
-a collection of stories set in Akana (would be very different and potentially a lot of fun, but probably not everyone is interested in writing stories; or good at it-- I'd be very hesitant to publish any attempt of mine)

I've had some other ideas for eventual projects, but maybe not so well suited to print. One thing I'd really like to do eventually is a historical atlas of northern Peilaš....


2
I too think we should take Salmoneus' criticisms to heart, especially the lack of focus. I've certainly been frustrated by conversations that get dropped or sidetracked; at the same time I know I've been guilty of dropping unfinished projects when I get busy or distracted. This is partly a problem with the way most of us work on Akana-- in bits and pieces as they strike our fancy... but maybe there are things we can do to mitigate this and help us focus more.

The forum was meant to be a tool to help with this; but it seems to take a lot of energy to keep conversations going there, probably because traffic is pretty low. The IRC channel is in a similar state, I think: I've found it occasionally really great for real-time conversations, but it's also empty much of the time. On the other hand, to be honest I sometimes avoid going there because when I do find someone to talk to it can easily take over my whole day.

One idea I've had was to create a list of topics that could use attention, and maybe have a few people "assigned" to each. A bit like the old list of domains on the wiki, but with a different implication: rather than exclusive rights to work on that topic, the people involved would agree to discuss it (maybe in a dedicated thread on the forum) and take some kind of responsibility for keeping it going. These could be any kind of topics (specific regions/cultures, the map, biology, etc.). Somewhat like Wikipedia's WikiProjects, I guess.

Who would be working on each topic could be very fluid, of course; I assume everyone's primary goal is just to have fun, and I don't want to add too much structure or make Akana seem like work. But I do kind of like the idea of there being just a little bit of commitment involved; at least for me, knowing that someone else is expecting me to do something is often a motivator.

Occasional scheduled IRC chats (maybe even with a topic set in advance) might be useful too.


3
I also think we should seriously consider the issues of ownership and copyright. It's bugged me for a while that there's no copyright statement on the wiki. I think we need to decide on a collective stance toward this and state it clearly.

As a general principle I think all work should be considered the property of its individual author(s). And I think we should make every reasonable effort to contact authors that aren't active anymore to let them know how we're using their work and make sure we have their permission. If we can't reach them, we need to decide what use we can ethically make of their work... e.g., is it ok to put their work online verbatim, as we've done with various language descriptions when the original copy disappeared? Is it better (or worse?) to write a new article on the wiki using their work as source or inspiration, as we've kind of done with Ndok Aisô? What about mixing the original document with our own additions, as in the Huyfárah article?

I think this is really important, but it's also difficult (both to do and to think clearly about), and so we've all been kind of ignoring the issue. I'm not sure if it's better to discuss it further here, or on the Akana Forum... it'd be less in the way there, but here it's more visible and public, which I think is probably a good thing.

[Nortaneous]

Lack of quality control. Some stuff is brilliant, other stuff is quite newbish. This springs from the open and inviting structure of it.

True. This has been bothering me for quite some time too, but it's a central part of the Akana project. Many of the relay languages were created by people who were relatively new to conlanging at the time, and the original two-weeks schedule meant that even more experienced people could not produce much more than a short sketch. The easiest way to cope with this is to pretend that the lack of realism in some of the languages is due to the description being based on scanty in-world research.

My only contribution (Hanheliubl) is probably pretty far off to the newbish side. One of these days I'll probably go back and fix the phonology, if I can dig up the sound changes and SCAize them (I applied them all by hand...), but I know practically nothing about syntax so I can't really fix that part. It should probably just be trashed, but if anyone wants to screw with the syntax once I fix the phonology (if I can fix it), I have no problem with that. It's probably not worth bothering with, though.

[Cedh]

I also think we should seriously consider the issues of ownership and copyright. It's bugged me for a while that there's no copyright statement on the wiki. I think we need to decide on a collective stance toward this and state it clearly.

As a general principle I think all work should be considered the property of its individual author(s). And I think we should make every reasonable effort to contact authors that aren't active anymore to let them know how we're using their work and make sure we have their permission. If we can't reach them, we need to decide what use we can ethically make of their work... e.g., is it ok to put their work online verbatim, as we've done with various language descriptions when the original copy disappeared? Is it better (or worse?) to write a new article on the wiki using their work as source or inspiration, as we've kind of done with Ndok Aisô? What about mixing the original document with our own additions, as in the Huyfárah article?

This is an important topic, and we really need to develop a collective stance on it. It's worth noting that there seem to be several different issues involved:

1. What type of copyright policy do we want for the Akana project?
2. Which content should said policy apply to? Only the wiki? The Akana forum? This thread? Language/culture descriptions outside of these places?
3. How do we make said policy compatible with existing content that might already have a specified license? What should be our position towards contributors that might not agree with our policy?
4. How do we approach revision of existing content? (4a. with regard to the content itself and its documentation?; 4b. with regard to copyright issues?)

There may be more issues, and of course there are interdependencies between them, but IMO at least these four fields need to be discussed separately.

Regarding 1, I agree with Corumayas that all work should be considered the property of its individual author(s), even if it may sometimes be difficult to determine who wrote what. Of course, this means that we can have no "public domain" licensing. In general I tend to favor something like a CC-BY-NC-SA license, but there may be certain arguments in favor of something else. For instance, it might be useful to have two separate licenses - if that is at all possible -; one for use within the Akana project on the one hand (fairly permissive), and one for use outside of it (fairly restrictive).

Regarding 2, I think we can realistically enact a policy on the wiki and the forum, which are both run by ourselves. (There may be some complications on the wiki though, see 3.) As for this thread, which holds many of the original ideas regarding the setting, the board policy will apply - if there is one; I don't think I've ever seen a copyright/copyleft statement on the ZBB. And as I see it, all documents outside of wiki or forums will by default be under the license their creator has selected (or else under the default copyright of the respective server), unless they decide to join our "official" policy.

Regarding 3, I believe the legal situation is such that licenses cannot be made more restrictive than they originally were, but that additional rights may easily be granted by explicit permission. Also, some content may be under a ShareAlike license, which would mean that we could probably use it but not with our license, whatever that will be, but with the original one. So we might have to accept some exceptions to our model.

Another thing to take into account here is that much of the wiki content has already been hosted elsewhere. Some of the original relay stuff was hosted at Almeopedia; most of the content relating to the Edastean sphere was originally published at KneeQuickie and was later moved to FrathWiki when the KQ was down. Technically, the licenses of these probably still apply to that part of the content; at KQ and FW this is CC-BY-SA, i.e. almost the same creative commons license as I suggested above, but allowing commercial use!

Regarding 4, my favorite approach would be that we should try to document the original work as faithfully as possible (this would preferrably include mirroring of sites that have gone offline), with attribution to the original author and possibly a description of the circumstances in which the work was made, and we would revise by group approval if a revision is called for on substantial grounds. If possible, revision should be addition, i.e. describing the subject in more detail, rather than removing or changing an existing part of the description.

[Radius Solis]

Seeing the general responses, I am inclined to shelve the book idea for the time being. Maybe we could think about it again in the future, but for now we might do better focusing on improving our existing web content.

FWIW I feel that without substantial book-only content, a book would have little reason to exist. Wiki articles could still summarize parts of the book without reproducing it directly, much like how wikipedia works. But I'd want any book to be something that can sell, at least to the conlanging community. Not so much for the money - I'd want to price the book as low as it could reasonably go - but to improve our presence and exposure and attract more people and have fun learning how to produce a book. And to test the waters for how much market potential there might be for additional future works, because we have no idea. It's not impossible sales figures could end up in the hundreds, I was just warning against getting dollar signs stuck in our eyes.


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On copyright issues, I agree it would be a good idea to get it straightened out for real. I am not very knowledgeable about these matters and find them confusing, especially when applied to a complex situation like ours. If possible, I would hope that we could arrive at a situation where nobody could profit from direct use of another's work without permission, but where all of us (and nobody else) are free to create and profit from derivative works.

[Salmoneus]

I don't really contribute any more, but if I did, I would be very unhappy with cedh's plan to make me give up my copyright. Indeed, it would probably stop me from contributing.
[I know he doesn't say that, but that's what all the long words mean, the talk about 'licenses' and the like. Any "license" is a giving-up of the innate rights, and any uniform 'license' policy across Akana means forcing that giving-up on the individual contributors.]

I don't see why any rights need to be given up. What is gained? Except the theoretical case of cedh/rad/whoever wanting to make a profit off everyone else's work, there's no need to 'license' content to them. And in the event that somebody wants to put stuff in a book, why can't they just ask people for the content? I don't see why their rights regarding what to publish or not publish have to be decided in advance.

If nothing else, who are "they"? Are we talking about 'the group' publishing a book, or any individual who wants to publishing a book? In that latter case, isn't that rather chaotic? And in the former case, we'd need a system of government for the group.

As far as I can see, setting formal licenses for material is very wise and very important when you want your material to be used by people you don't know and can't contact, because then you have to set up the terms in advance. But when you're talking about people... you're talking to... then you don't need to decide things in advance. You can just talk about the cases as they arise.

The only exception I can see to this in this case is with material written by someone who becomes unavailable for later contact - say I write a language, then disappear, then you want to publish a book, so then you need my permission to use my material, but you can't find me to get it. Well, in that case just omit my work. Or rewrite it to not violate copyright. The extent to which copyright law even applies to conlanging and in particular conworlding ideas is highly unclear in any case.

In light of a) the communal and disorganised nature of the project and b) the limited application of copyright law to the material, I think it's better to i) allow everyone to retain full copyright and get permissions on a case-by-case basis, and ii) operate a more cautious, non-legalistic policy of general respect for the work of others and their interests in it, erring on the side of getting permission even when the law is unclear, or where the law does not cover the situation.

I would see it more as a plagiarism concern than a copyright concern.