The West Saxon Scratchpad (Formerly the West Saxon Thread)

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

The revised vowels chapter is now up. Please feel free to comment, or point out any typos I've missed.
Last edited by Herra Ratatoskr on Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Bristel »

The menu selections at the top of the page on your site don't work... I have to directly link to the pages or click on the bottom links...

This reminds me of the Valhalish conlang, except it is Anglo-Frisian instead of Norse.

But I bet you spent more time on this project, from what I've seen of it.

EDIT: Actually, none of the links seem to work, except if you know the direct address and type it into the browser search line.

I'm using Safari 5, but it was a problem for me before as well, using Safari 4.

I'll try using Chrome or Firefox to see if it works on those.
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

:oops:

I'm sorry, I'm an absolute moron for not mentioning this earlier. I've not yet put in the link functionality in the menu yet; I was going to do it when I had more chapters up. I'm sorry for the confusion this gave you.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Bristel »

Herra Ratatoskr wrote::oops:

I'm sorry, I'm an absolute moron for not mentioning this earlier. I've not yet put in the link functionality in the menu yet; I was going to do it when I had more chapters up. I'm sorry for the confusion this gave you.
I understand. Don't worry.

From what I have seen, the rest of the chapters will be great.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró

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Post by eodrakken »

Nicely done, as usual. I like how the tonic/atonic vowels differ, which of course is reminiscent of English, especially with the addition of the reduced inflectional-syllable vowels.

One typo that I saw:
The phoneme /n̩/ is a rather unstable in its realization

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Post by Glenn »

I continue to be impressed with what I've seen of West Saxon and the work you've put into it; as noted before, I look forward to seeing actual West Saxon texts when they become available.

p@ (a deep bow with a flourish),
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Okay, here's a real update.

I've migrated and updated some of the content I've got over to the web site. Here are the new pages (note, they are still works in progress).

Determiners
Nouns
Vowels
Pronouns

More will be coming soon (think finishing the incomplete pages, and adding adjectives, derivation, prepositions, and adverbs).

In the mean time, since I've reworked some of the stuff, I thought I'd give you a look at the evolution of the Middle West Saxon declension of the articles.

Definite Article:

Code: Select all

Early (circa 1300)...
    Masc Fem Neut Plur
Nom þe   þeo þat  þo
Acc þune þo  þat  þo
Gen þas  þar þas  þor
Dat þam  þar þam  þom

Later (circa 1450)...
    Mas  Fem Neut Plur
Nom de   deo dat  do
Acc dan  do  dat  do
Gen das  dar das  dor
Dat dan  dar dan  don

Finally (circa 1600)...
    Mas  Fem Neut Plur
Com di   dy  dat  do
Gen das  dar das  dor
Dat dan  dar dan  don
About 1500 is when the first instances of the nominative being used for all cases shows up in the Witncester West Saxon.

Specific Article:

Code: Select all

Circa 1350
    Masc   Fem   Neut   Plur
Nom a(n)   an(e) a(n)   su(m)
Acc an     an(e) a(n)   su(m)
Gen as     ar    as     sur
Dat a(n/m) ar    a(n/m) sum
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
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Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Beli Orao »

Looks more Frisian-y than before. Is having the dental fricatives shift to /d/ in the modern language part of the revision?

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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

One part of the revision was that þ shifts to d in pretonic syllables. For the most part þ still exists, mostly unchanged in non-function words.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Christopher Schröder »

Why does the link to the orthography not work?
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Post by TaylorS »

Me likey! :D

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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Christoph Schrader wrote:Why does the link to the orthography not work?
I haven't updated it yet (and I haven't put in any links, to be honest). You can look at the orthography page on the old site, it shouldn't be too horribly out of date.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Christopher Schröder »

Oh, sorry for my mistake, and thank you.

But why tj for /ts/ and dj for /dz/?
"Think only of the past as its remembrance gives you pleasure."
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Those are gone in the revised version of West Saxon, and originally represented [t+j] and [d+j] clusters that had, around 1700-1850 simplified to [ts] and [dz]. There are still palatalizations of t & d to ts and dz, but will probably be handled by ti+V and di+V, and are pronounced [tsi+V] and [dzi+V].
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Christopher Schröder »

The chapter mentions that all diphthongs are falling -- what becomes of a sequence of unstressed i followed by another consonant? Is it somehow absorbed into the preceding sound, perhaps, or does the stress shift? Or would it simply be deleted altogether?
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

In careful speech it is still pronounced, and is in hiatus with the following vowel. In rapid speech, however, it is usually absorbed into the preceding consonant, palatalizing it.

Oh, and the Adjectival Morphology page is up (and it's a complete draft!). Like?

Oh, and how is the look of the webpage? I recall some displeasure with the look of the last version, and was wondering how people found this one.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Beli Orao »

It looks good, when are you planning on making the navigation work? And can we get some sample texts, perhaps alongside German translations? :)

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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

The navigation up top has been added. Pages that exist and have links are now underlined. As stuff gets added, it will be added to the nav as I upload it.

Oh, and did you have any sample texts you'd like? And when you say "alongside German translations", do you mean texts in WS/English/German?
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Beli Orao »

And when you say "alongside German translations", do you mean texts in WS/English/German?
Aye, to compare the more German-like development of WS from OE.

I'd personally like to see "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" in WS :)

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Post by eodrakken »

The page design looks good, very readable. I'm glad to see things coming together. The balance you strike between leveling and irregularity hits my aesthetic just right. I'm looking forward to seeing the sound changes.

Little stuff:
there is only two strong adjective forms
there are
-wa and -wo stems with distinct inflection pattern
patterns
comperable
comparable

And the Adjectives section is listed twice under Morphology.
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

whoops ! :oops:

All fixed, and the second adjective link is now the link to the proper "pronouns" page.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Beli Orao »

So when can we expect a translation of the anthem of the Kaisertum? :P

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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

Looks like fun. I'll tinker around, and see what I can come up with.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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Post by Christopher Schröder »

I'd like to see the updated orthography next so I know how to pronounce the words (I currently seem to be defaulting to something like Middle English but with j as /j/).
"Think only of the past as its remembrance gives you pleasure."
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Herra Ratatoskr
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Post by Herra Ratatoskr »

It's already in the works. I'll bump it to the top of the todo list.
I am Ratatosk, Norse Squirrel of Strife!

There are 10 types of people in this world:
-Those who understand binary
-Those who don't

Mater tua circeta ibat et pater tuus sambucorum olficiebat!

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