Post your conlang's phonology

[Bristel]

I know, boring. This is not supposed to include allophony, is it?

Vowels

/a e i o u/

Diphthongs

/aj ej oj uj/
/aw ew ow/
/ja je jo ju/
/wa we wi wo/

Consonants

/m n ɲ/
/p t k/
/b d g/
/f θ s ʃ/
/v/
/dʒ/
/r ɾ l ʎ/
/w j/

Let's hope I'm not leaving anything out :/.

It looks very Catalanesque to me. Especially the set of diphthongs, but not a complete vowel similarity, without vowels like /ɛ ɔ ə/.

With the consonants, /θ/ could account for a missing /dz/ in Catalan.

I'm sorry if I'm not being helpful, but hopefully pointing out the similarities will help with some ideas.

What are the phonotactics for your conlang?

And yes, allophony should be included, as we cannot see much about a conlang from the set of phonemes.

[Thry]

It looks very Catalanesque to me. Especially the set of diphthongs, but not a complete vowel similarity, without vowels like /ɛ ɔ ə/.

With the consonants, /θ/ could account for a missing /dz/ in Catalan.

I'm sorry if I'm not being helpful, but hopefully pointing out the similarities will help with some ideas.

You're right, and that's nice, it's intentional. It's a romlang inspired mainly by Catalan and Spanish; though probably many of its features may be unrealistic. The /θ/ is the mark of Spanish, opposed to the common /s/ many romance languages have for the softening of latin CE, CI, CY, COE, CAE, TIA, TIO etc.

What are the phonotactics for your conlang?

I've never sketched it out before, so maybe this will need some revision, but I'll give it a try. Also, one note, when I say "in some dialects" it can actually mean that I've planned on doing several dialects (mainly two, North and Standard, and a third Southern one maybe), or simply that I'm still undecided.

C(r,l)VCC is general syllable structure: [tɾakt] ['θeɾn.dɾə] [fast]

The onset is pretty much as in Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese... plosive or f plus r, l are allowed, and almost every phoneme is allowed (not /ɾ/).

The coda can include up to three consonants, four would be very rare.

1-consonant codas: every phoneme but not /r/, not /dʒ/, not /v/, not /b/.
2 and 3-consonant codas: /lm(s) lp(s) lt(s) lk(s) lb(s) ld(s) lg(s) ɾp(s) ɾt(s) ɾk(s) ɾd(s) ɾg(s) kt(s) pt(s) st(s) ɾn(s) ɾm(s) mp(s) nt(s) nk(s) mb(s) nd(s) ng(s)/ and generally anything allowed in 1-consonant codas plus s, excepting silbants (and /θ/).

There are no special simplifications if these meet with onsets in the middle of a word. The (s) in most of them arises because of the plural morpheme /s/ added to a word ending in the respective coda.

And yes, allophony should be included, as we cannot see much about a conlang from the set of phonemes.

Ok. I was in doubt because I saw people posting just the phonemes. Same as before, this is subject to revision because my conlang is not actually complete or certain .

Vowel allophony

/a/ If unstressed it turns into [ɐ]. If followed by /j/, or before /ʃ/, it turns into [ɛ].

/e/ If unstressed it may turn into [ə].
Word-initially, specially if the first sound in the word, it is realized as [ɪ] and thus can merge with /i/.

/i/ No real allophony. If unstressed, may be [ɪ] in some dialects.

/o/ Usually stays [o] when reduced. In some common (exceptional) words, such as weak pronouns, like nos and vos, it may turn into or even [ə].

/u/ No real allophony.

Diphthong allophony

/aj ej oj uj/ are realized as [ɛj ej oj uj]
/aw ew ow/ are realized as written.
/ja je jo ju/ as written.
/wa we wi wo/ as written.

Consonant allophony

/m/ assimilates to [ɱ] before /f/ and /v/, e.g.: symphonia (symphony) [siɱ.fo.'ni.ɐ]
/n/ assimilates to [ŋ] before /k/ and /g/, e.g.: pong (I put) [poŋ]
And similarly for these nasals and other points of articulation.
/ɲ/ depalatalizes to [n] when before (/o/ or /u/) e.g.: pun (fist) [pun] vs. empunyar (wield) [ɪm.pu.'ɲaɾ]
/p t k/ are always [p k t].
/d g/ are [ð ɣ] between vowels.
/b d g/ have distinct outcomes when in coda position. /b/ cannot happen there, /d/ turns into [w] and /g/ remains [g] or fricativizes to [ɣ], e.g.: feder : fed (to stink and 3p sing.) [fə.'ðeɾ] : [few].
Word-finally, /ld/ /ɾd/ /nd/ drop the /ɾ/, leaving [l] [ɾ] [n]; /lg/ /ɾg/ /ng/ give [ʟ] [ɾɣ] [ŋ]; /mb/ drops the /b/, leaving [m].
/s/ voices to [z] between vowels.
/v/ devoices to [f] word-initially. Thus, volg (I want, I desire) is [foʟ]
/dʒ/ can be realized also as [ʝ] and [ʒ] depending on the dialect.
/ʎ/ has something similar to the mechanism of /ɲ/, depalatalizing to [l] in some circumstances. Thus, col and colyar (neck and necklace) are [kol] and [ko.'ʎaɾ].

There is something called reduction which happens, in the standard language, when talking informally and fast, but in some dialects it is the norm. It consists on:

Reducing all vowels as described.
Dropping final [ə]
Dropping final [ɾ]
Contracting diphthongs /aw ew ow/ to /o ø~e u/
Erosion of some word-final consonants and clusters (it doesn't get any more specific now).

And I think this is what I have so far.

[ná'oolkiłí]

Here's a new phonology I've been toying with that I'm really excited about. South Caucasian + Salish + Australian + American English

/pʰ p bʱ b ɓ t̪ʰ t̪ t̪' d̪ʱ d̪ ɗ̪ t̠ʰ t̠ t̠' d̠ʱ d̠ ɗ̠ kʰ k k' gʱ g kʷʰ kʷ kʷ' gʷʱ gʷ q q' qʷ qʷ' ʔ ʔʷ/
/tsʰ ts ts' dz tʃʰ tʃ tʃ' dʒ/
/s s' z ʃ ʃ' ʒ x x' xʷ xʷ' χ χ' χʷ χʷ' h/
/m n̪ n̠/
/r l j ɰ w/
/i u a/

This looks ridiculous, but phonological processes make the phonetic realization slightly less ridiculous. Most consonants have different realizations in stressed initial, unstressed initial, stressed medial, unstressed medial, and final position. For example:

Code: Select all

 /C/  Cá  CaCáCaC
/pʰ/ pʰa p#pʰahap
/p/  pʰa papʰabap
/bʱ/ ba  b#bab#Ø
/b/  ɓa  baɓawap
/ɓ/  ɓa  baɓabap                #=elided vowel

So far fewer than 64 consonants actually contrast in any environment. To take advantage of this environmental allophony, I'm thinking stress movement will be an important morphological component.

Cluster reorganization will play a big role. Phonotactics only allow "harmonic" clusters (clusters that start in the front of the mouth and go back), and will metathesize consonants to harmonize them. Cluster constituents also assimilate for phonation and lip rounding. For instance, say you get a string like /gʷ + t̪'a/. The resulting cluster will be [t̪ʷ'kʷ'a]. Not all strings can be harmonized. If we get something like /q' + p + tsʰ + s + ts + x + ma/, we harmonize as much as we can, insert an epenthetic vowel, and harmonize the rest: [p'ts'q'amstsxa]

Other notable things: /i u/ are lowered to [e o] around uvulars, but dentals will cancel this. /t̠iq'a/ [t̠eq'a]; /t̪iq'a/ [t̪iq'a].
The dental/alveolar contrast is neutralized except in word initial position (this is how a lot of Australian languages work, right?).
Aspired consonants in unstressed syllable onsets generally elide vowels, but elided /i/ and /u/ might add a secondary articulation. For instance: /tʰaˈk'a/ [ˈt'k'a] but /tʰuˈk'a/ [ˈtʷ'kʷ'a].
/ɰ/ → [w] / __u ; [j] / __i ; [Ø] / __a
/l/ → [l] / (#, V)__V́ ; [r] elsewhere
Syllable structure is (C)(C)(C)CV(C). Clusters must of course be harmonic. (Phonetic, not phonemic) onset is mandatory—[ʔ] is inserted for any word that begins with a naked vowel.

I haven't thought a lot about the language besides its phonology, but I've been inspired by Ket and NEC languages recently, so I might do something along those lines. I have some ideas for an orthography, and it will of course be absurd.

[Bristel]

@Eandil

A mi m'agrada molt!. Would love to see a sketch of the grammar sometime.

What is <tract> <cerndre> and <vast>?

I'm guessing the spelling.

[Thry]

@Eandil

A mi m'agrada molt!.

Gràcies! Ets d'algun lloc a Catalunya o al País Valencià o ho són els teus pares? Vaig pensar que eres de Cartagena.

What is <tract> <cerndre> and <vast>?

I'm guessing the spelling.

Nice! I actually had <fast> in mind, but I can't blame you, <vast> would also be possible (and is indeed a word). Fast means "until, 'till"; vast means as in English; tract is the past participle of tracer, "to bring", so "brought"; and cerndre is the weak infinitive of a verb which means "to sift" (I didn't know how to translate this word into English, if you know Spanish cernir or cerner you get an idea).

Would love to see a sketch of the grammar sometime.

That's nice to hear, I have some ideas I'd like to share and also hear people's feedback on plausibility. I may do it sometime soon. I'd post that in this subforum, right?

[Bristel]

@Eandil

A mi m'agrada molt!.

Gràcies! Ets d'algun lloc a Catalunya o al País Valencià o ho són els teus pares? Vaig pensar que eres de Cartagena.

No, soc americà. Vaig començar a aprendre català quan un amic em va mostrar una placa amb una frase pintada en català. Més tard, vaig trobar(?) que hi havia uns pocs avantpassats català per part de la meva mare. He tingut unes vacances a Catalunya fa 3 anys, on he tingut un curs curt en català. "Carthago delenda est" es només una broma per la meva ubicació.

What is <tract> <cerndre> and <vast>?

I'm guessing the spelling.

Nice! I actually had <fast> in mind, but I can't blame you, <vast> would also be possible (and is indeed a word). Fast means "until, 'till"; vast means as in English; tract is the past participle of tracer, "to bring", so "brought"; and cerndre is the weak infinitive of a verb which means "to sift" (I didn't know how to translate this word into English, if you know Spanish cernir or cerner you get an idea).

So, a cognate of <fast> in Catalan would be <fins>?

Cerndre > cernut?

"To sift" sounds right to me, but it's not a verb I use or hear often in Spanish.

Would love to see a sketch of the grammar sometime.

That's nice to hear, I have some ideas I'd like to share and also hear people's feedback on plausibility. I may do it sometime soon. I'd post that in this subforum, right?

Yes, or in C&C Quickies if you have questions about plausibility or want to confer with some Romance speakers about issues you have with the conlang.

[King of My Own Niche]

To be named, as part of my senior project this year. This is my first real phonemic inventory, so my focus is cool, non-English, and not bringing the kitchen sink.

Consonants:
/p b t d k g ʔ p^j b^j t^j d^j k^j g^j/

/f v ð s z ʃ ʒ ç x f^j v^j ð^j s^j z^j ʃ^j ʒ^j ç^j/

/m n ŋ m^j n^j ŋ^j/

/ɹ j w r l l^j/

/ts dz tʃ dʒ ks gz ts^j dz^j tʃ^j dʒ^j ks^j gz^j/

Vowels:
Singular - /i u ɪ ʊ o ə ɛ æ ä/
Diphthongs - /äi æi äu ou/

Not quite finished yet, I think the I'll discover the need for more diphthongs as I go.

[Bob Johnson]

If you want non-English you should cut /ɹ/ or give some serious justification for it.

[Bristel]

When almost every phoneme has a matching palatalized version, I'd say that's a bit kitchen-sinky... Plus unrealistic.

[8Deer]

EDIT: Reposted due to lack of information.

[finlay]

When almost every phoneme has a matching palatalized version, I'd say that's a bit kitchen-sinky... Plus unrealistic.

also people who write /ä/ in phonemes is a bit of a pet hate of mine and various others'.

[Izambri]

So, a cognate of <fast> in Catalan would be <fins>?

It seems. Eandil's fast reminds me a lot of Spanish hasta "until". As in the pairs fum / humo, fart / harto, fondo / hondo...

Cerndre > cernut?

"To sift" sounds right to me, but it's not a verb I use or hear often in Spanish.

Cerner has various meanings. According to DRAE:

cerner.
(Del lat. cernĕre, separar).

1. tr. Separar con el cedazo la harina del salvado, o cualquier otra materia reducida a polvo, de suerte que lo más grueso quede sobre la tela, y lo sutil caiga al sitio destinado para recogerlo.
2. tr. Atalayar, observar, examinar.
3. tr. Depurar, afinar los pensamientos y las acciones.
4. intr. impers. Llover suave y menudo.
5. intr. Dicho de la vid, del olivo, del trigo y de otras plantas: Dejar caer el polen de la flor.
6. prnl. Andar o menearse moviendo el cuerpo a uno y otro lado, como quien cierne.
7. prnl. Dicho de un ave: Mover sus alas, manteniéndose en el aire sin apartarse del sitio en que está.
8. prnl. Dicho de un mal: Amenazar de cerca.

And according to http://dictionary.reverso.net/spanish-english/cerner the possible translations are:

1. (Separar con el cedazo...) to sift, to sieve
2. (Atalayar...) to scan, to watch
3. (Afinar los pensamientos...) ???
4. (Llover suave y menudo) to drizzle
5. (Dejar caer el polen...) to bud, to blossom
6. (Andar moviendo el cuerpo...) to waddle
7. (Dicho de un ave: Mover sus alas...) to hover, to circle
8. (Dicho de un mal: Amenazar de cerca) to hang over sth/sb

[Bristel]

@Izambri:

Ah, thanks. Yes, now that you tell me, it does look like hasta.

[King of My Own Niche]

@Bob and Bristel

Duly noted.

@finlay

Care to explain?

[Bob Johnson]

@finlay

Care to explain?

(I assume he's asleep now) There's no need to specify centering in phonemic representation when there's no front or back version of /a/, so just write /a/.

[8Deer]

Kinoxʷ

Phonemes:

Plosives: /p t ʈ k kʷ q/
Fricatives: /s ʂ x xʷ h/
Affricate: /ʈʂ/
Approximants: /j w/
Nasals: /m n ɳ ɲ/
Flap: /r/
Vowels: /a e i o u/

Allophones:

Uvular Darkening:
a i u > ɑ e o before or after uvulars

Retroflex Centralization:
a e o > ə
i u > ɨ

Nasal Assimilation:
Nasals assimilate to POA of following consonants.

Glottal Allophony:
h > χ word initially
h > ç before i
h > ɸ before u

Palatization:
s t > ɕ tɕ

Semivowel Allophones:
i > e before j
u > a before w

Velarization:
Plosives velarized before o. Eg: /to/ > [txo]

Delabialization:
Labialization constrast lost before u and o.

Voicing:
Plosives and the affricate are voiced intervocally and before nasals.

Rhoticism:
ʈʂ > ɻ intervocally

Part of a language family I'm working on. Has a sisterlang so far and I'm quite pleased with how different they've turned out so far. I quite like this phoneme inventory because it doesn't closely resemble any one language that I know of.

[Thry]

No, soc americà. Vaig començar a aprendre català quan un amic em va mostrar una placa amb una frase pintada en català. Més tard, vaig trobar(?) que hi havia uns pocs avantpassats català per part de la meva mare. He tingut unes vacances a Catalunya fa 3 anys, on he tingut un curs curt en català. "Carthago delenda est" es només una broma per la meva ubicació.

Ah, ja entenc! Tot el català que sé és per mi mateix i per veure un programa d'humor català en youtube, es diu APM?, si vols veure'l podràs aprendre rient-te. Potser Izambri el conegui.

So, a cognate of <fast> in Catalan would be <fins>?

Not sure of the etymology of fins. As Izambri guessed, the actual cognate is something like Spanish hasta. I'm not sure about the source of the /f/, though, since etymology tells me hasta is from Latin ad ista. But I've seen Old Spanish fasta, and whatever the means I'm keeping that f.

Cerndre > cernut?

Cernut is the Catalan participle, but I believe the infinitive is identical. In Irglandic (the romlang), the participle would be cernid [θəɾ.'new].

"To sift" sounds right to me, but it's not a verb I use or hear often in Spanish.

Me neither. I just took it to illustrate the rn in coda position. In Spanish, I only use it, in literary writing, to say something like: La oscuridad se cierne sobre nosotros. "Darkness hangs over us". (The last meaning Izambri gave).

Yes, or in C&C Quickies if you have questions about plausibility or want to confer with some Romance speakers about issues you have with the conlang.

Ok, thank you.

[Thry]

To be named, as part of my senior project this year. This is my first real phonemic inventory, so my focus is cool, non-English, and not bringing the kitchen sink.

Consonants:
/p b t d k g ʔ p^j b^j t^j d^j k^j g^j/

/f v ð s z ʃ ʒ ç x f^j v^j ð^j s^j z^j ʃ^j ʒ^j ç^j/

Isn't it a bit unbelievable to have /ʃ^j ʒ^j/ as phonemes? I think they're not that audibly distinct from from normal /ʃ ʒ/ and that since you have /s^j z^j/ allophony could probably make them go to [ʃ ʒ]. The same goes for /ç^j/, I don't know if I'd distinguish that from normal /ç/. You could maybe analyze these as consonant + /j/? Having too much phonemes might create difficulties later for having a credible allophony.

[Nannalu]

Q'éuátxi [qʼəwɤt͡ʃi]:

/p t tʼ k kʼ q qʼ ʡ/ <Pp Tt T't' Kk K'k' Qq Q'q' ʔ>
/t͡s t͡sʼ t͡ʃ t͡ʃʼ/ <Tsts Ts'ts' Txtx Tx'tx'>
/s sʼ ʃ χ χʼ/ <Ss S's' Xx Hh H'h'>
/w ɬ ɬʼ j l/ <Uu Hlhl Hl'hl' Yy Ll>
/m n/ <Mm Nn>

/i e/ <Ii Ee>
/ä u ɔ/ <Aa Uu Oo>

Code: Select all

ALLOPHONES OF /i/
•	/ɪ/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Íí>
•	/ɨ/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɪ̈/ after an approximant				<Íí>
ALLOPHONES OF /e/
•	/ɛ/ after a plosive, nasal or afficate			<Éé>
•	/ə/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɞ/ after an approximant				<Éé>
ALLOPHONES OF /ä/
•	/ɐ/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Áá>
•	/a/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɑ/ after an approximant			<Áá>
ALLOPHONES OF /u/
•	/y/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Úú>
•	/ʉ/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ʊ̈/ after an approximant			<Úú>
ALLOPHONES OF /ɔ/
•	/ø/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Óó>
•	/ʌ̞/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɤ/ after an approximant				<Óó>

[finlay]

Q'éuátxi [qʼəwɤt͡ʃi]:

/p t tʼ k kʼ q qʼ ʡ/ <Pp Tt T't' Kk K'k' Qq Q'q' ʔ>
/t͡s t͡sʼ t͡ʃ t͡ʃʼ/ <Tsts Ts'ts' Txtx Tx'tx'>
/s sʼ ʃ χ χʼ/ <Ss S's' Xx Hh H'h'>
/w ɬ ɬʼ j l/ <Uu Hlhl Hl'hl' Yy Ll>
/m n/ <Mm Nn>

/i e/ <Ii Ee>
/ä u ɔ/ <Aa Uu Oo>

Code: Select all

ALLOPHONES OF /i/
•	/ɪ/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Íí>
•	/ɨ/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɪ̈/ after an approximant				<Íí>
ALLOPHONES OF /e/
•	/ɛ/ after a plosive, nasal or afficate			<Éé>
•	/ə/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɞ/ after an approximant				<Éé>
ALLOPHONES OF /ä/
•	/ɐ/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Áá>
•	/a/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɑ/ after an approximant			<Áá>
ALLOPHONES OF /u/
•	/y/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Úú>
•	/ʉ/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ʊ̈/ after an approximant			<Úú>
ALLOPHONES OF /ɔ/
•	/ø/ after a plosive, nasal or affricate			<Óó>
•	/ʌ̞/ between plosives, nasals or affricates
•	/ɤ/ after an approximant				<Óó>

gah. can i really be bothered explaining all the things wrong with this?

ok fine, it's the "/ä/" that's bothering me (see three posts above)... and then you go into ALLOPHONES but write them between phoneme slashes...

rest is fine actually, although i don't understand why you're marking your ALLOPHONES orthographically and the ALLOPHONES are rather odd/random choices which I find it hard to find a motivation for.

[----]

Don't almost all languages that have an epiglottal plosive have fricatives in that area as well?

[Izambri]

Ah, ja entenc! Tot el català que sé és per mi mateix i per veure un programa d'humor català en youtube, es diu APM?, si vols veure'l podràs aprendre rient-te. Potser Izambri el conegui.

Of course I know it! XD

So, a cognate of <fast> in Catalan would be <fins>?

Not sure of the etymology of fins. As Izambri guessed, the actual cognate is something like Spanish hasta. I'm not sure about the source of the /f/, though, since etymology tells me hasta is from Latin ad ista. But I've seen Old Spanish fasta, and whatever the means I'm keeping that f.

According to the Alcover-Moll:

FINS prep. i conj.
[...]
Etim.: de fin (<llatí fīne), ‘fi’, amb -s adverbial. Una evolució de significat i d'ús semblant ha ocorregut en l'italià, que té la forma fino o fin amb el sentit del nostre fins. Les formes finsa, finses, finsos, són vulgarismes com els de les variants aixina, aixines, aixinos, etc., estudiades en l'article així.

Cerndre > cernut?

Cernut is the Catalan participle, but I believe the infinitive is identical. In Irglandic (the romlang), the participle would be cernid [θəɾ.'new].

Yes, the Catalan infinitive is cerndre, which regardless the cluster rndr, is pronounced ['sendɾə] (so the first r is mute).

[Thry]

Of course I know it! XD

I just love it and how it makes the short clips fit. One of my favorites is this lady. And Torreiglesias, from Saber vivir is funny as hell too.

FINS

Nice to know. Yea, it makes sense that it comes from something meaning "end" xD. So it's not cognate with my fast definitely.

Yes, the Catalan infinitive is cerndre, which regardless the cluster rndr, is pronounced ['sendɾə] (so the first r is mute).

You guys got an addiction with dropping consonants. You began with final n's and now even r's in the middle of words .

[Izambri]

Of course I know it! XD

I just love it and how it makes the short clips fit. One of my favorites is this lady. And Torreiglesias, from Saber vivir is funny as hell too.

I love this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gjdCSVvqk0

I use these words whenever I can. I speak Apeemian with my friends. XD

Yes, the Catalan infinitive is cerndre, which regardless the cluster rndr, is pronounced ['sendɾə] (so the first r is mute).

You guys got an addiction with dropping consonants. You began with final n's and now even r's in the middle of words .

Some middle r are really hard to pronounce, like that one, or the one in prendre, which is ['pɛndɾə], not ['pɾɛndɾə].

[Thry]

Of course I know it! XD

I just love it and how it makes the short clips fit. One of my favorites is this lady. And Torreiglesias, from Saber vivir is funny as hell too.

I love this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gjdCSVvqk0

I use these words whenever I can. I speak Apeemian with my friends. XD

Haha yea I've seen that choni before: maravilloso, ezpehtacular, me emocionao al vel.lo xD

I've shown it to my friends as well, and we use them sometimes xD.

Some middle r are really hard to pronounce, like that one, or the one in prendre, which is ['pɛndɾə], not ['pɾɛndɾə].

O_O I didn't expect that one. I mean it's not that hard to pronounce. If I'm not wrong, it'd merge with the equivalent of Spanish pender, "to hang", as in "su vida pende de un hilo", if it exists.