Post your conlang's phonology

[roninbodhisattva]

Consonant inventory. These all have IPA values:

[p-glyphs]

http://pseudoglyphs.wordpress.com/2010/ ... anization/

[finlay]

oh god, why would you use IPA and still keep in the blasted "as in X" things?

You know, some of us have [ɔ] or [ɒ] – a rounded back vowel – in 'cot'. What then?

Also i'm not convinced that [ɨ] in roses is anything more than a kludge by wikipedians to represent something that can be either [ɪ] or [ə] depending on dialect...

Furthermore, the Mandarin <i> is pronounced [ʐ̩] after [ʂ] or [ʐ], so ri is not [ʐi], it is [ʐʐ̩]. Look, there are plenty of reasons why not to use the "as in X" method... you've shown that you're capable with the IPA, so just use that!

[p-glyphs]

oh god, why would you use IPA and still keep in the blasted "as in X" things?

You know, some of us have [ɔ] or [ɒ] – a rounded back vowel – in 'cot'. What then?

Also i'm not convinced that [ɨ] in roses is anything more than a kludge by wikipedians to represent something that can be either [ɪ] or [ə] depending on dialect...

Furthermore, the Mandarin <i> is pronounced [ʐ̩] after [ʂ] or [ʐ], so ri is not [ʐi], it is [ʐʐ̩]. Look, there are plenty of reasons why not to use the "as in X" method... you've shown that you're capable with the IPA, so just use that!

Hey, agro...

Not everyone knows IPA.

[ɨ] is a sound I know well from Korean... I assumed 'roses' aligned in some regional variant of spoken English. Same with Mandarin.

Everything you think you know about pronunciation is only true in your area of your country. I guess for that reason you got a point. But why be exclusive when you could be inclusive?

[roninbodhisattva]

Everything you think you know about pronunciation is only true in your area of your country. I guess for that reason you got a point. But why be exclusive when you could be inclusive?

Well, you're not being inclusive in a way, because the pronunciations that are being referenced by the "as in X" statements will only be used by people with those pronunciations. People with different pronunciations won't be included. So it's not inclusive.

[p-glyphs]

Everything you think you know about pronunciation is only true in your area of your country. I guess for that reason you got a point. But why be exclusive when you could be inclusive?

Well, you're not being inclusive in a way, because the pronunciations that are being referenced by the "as in X" statements will only be used by people with those pronunciations. People with different pronunciations won't be included. So it's not inclusive.

[roninbodhisattva]

Everything you think you know about pronunciation is only true in your area of your country. I guess for that reason you got a point. But why be exclusive when you could be inclusive?

Well, you're not being inclusive in a way, because the pronunciations that are being referenced by the "as in X" statements will only be used by people with those pronunciations. People with different pronunciations won't be included. So it's not inclusive.

...

[p-glyphs]

Everything you think you know about pronunciation is only true in your area of your country. I guess for that reason you got a point. But why be exclusive when you could be inclusive?

Well, you're not being inclusive in a way, because the pronunciations that are being referenced by the "as in X" statements will only be used by people with those pronunciations. People with different pronunciations won't be included. So it's not inclusive.

...

It's exponentially more inclusive than IPA

[roninbodhisattva]

It's exponentially more inclusive than IPA

Why, because people who don't know IPA will see a pronunciation guide? 1) How many people who don't know IPA will be reading your blog and 2) even if they read it and don't know IPA, if they come from a different dialect/have a different pronunciation than the standard your using, they will be using the wrong pronunciation.

Using 'as in X' is an illusion of inclusivity that's pointless. You could describe how to articulate the sounds instead of appealing to some false standard. Maybe that would make it inclusive to some actual extent.

[finlay]

I already feel excluded by "A as in cot". (god, you live in New Zealand! people around you will have a rounded back vowel here!)

[p-glyphs]

Why, because people who don't know IPA will see a pronunciation guide? 1) How many people who don't know IPA will be reading your blog and 2) even if they read it and don't know IPA, if they come from a different dialect/have a different pronunciation than the standard your using, they will be using the wrong pronunciation.

Using 'as in X' is an illusion of inclusivity that's pointless. You could describe how to articulate the sounds instead of appealing to some false standard. Maybe that would make it inclusive to some actual extent.

I already feel excluded by "A as in cot". (god, you live in New Zealand! people around you will have a rounded back vowel here!)

I don't know what to do for you. Learn to accept things you can't change.

[TallaFerroXIV]

Why, because people who don't know IPA will see a pronunciation guide? 1) How many people who don't know IPA will be reading your blog and 2) even if they read it and don't know IPA, if they come from a different dialect/have a different pronunciation than the standard your using, they will be using the wrong pronunciation.

Using 'as in X' is an illusion of inclusivity that's pointless. You could describe how to articulate the sounds instead of appealing to some false standard. Maybe that would make it inclusive to some actual extent.

I already feel excluded by "A as in cot". (god, you live in New Zealand! people around you will have a rounded back vowel here!)

I don't know what to do for you. Learn to accept things you can't change.

It's not only exclusive to English speakers from different dialects but also to non native speakers who don't have a full grasp on pronunciation.

[roninbodhisattva]

It's not only exclusive to English speakers from different dialects but also to non native speakers who don't have a full grasp on pronunciation.

True story.

I don't know what to do for you. Learn to accept things you can't change.

Why not just change it?

[finlay]

I don't know what to do for you. Learn to accept things you can't change.

looool

going further with the inclusivity metaphor shenanigans to amuse myself, you've also ended up just describing your voiceless unaspirated stops as "unaspirated" and then use Maori words to demonstrate this. Now since we've already established from "[a] as in cot" that you are aiming your pronunciation guide at natives of Chicago or the Inland North of America, who are you now aiming at? Other Chicagoites who happen to have learnt a bit of Maori? I'm just going to stick my neck out a little here and point out that this probably isn't many. But then you complicate it further, by calling upon other languages to support your pronunciation guide: Mandarin, which you end up getting wrong anyway, and Japanese, confusingly mentioned in the same breath as Mandarin without any disambiguation (besides, what are the chances that your hypothetical reader doesn't know IPA but does know Mandarin, Japanese and Maori, can recognise each language as being that, and knows the pronunciation on an intimate enough level for your purposes? Bear in mind that after all that they still don't know the IPA. These things are easy for the likes of you or me, but only because we know the IPA...). And then we get into even thornier issues with "[o] as in vote", which works for a limited number of speakers of English. And the English speakers that have [o] in vote don't tend to congregate in Chicago or New Zealand. But we'll come back to the main question poking at us: who are you actually aiming this guide at? Is it other conlangers? Because in that case, just give a phoneme inventory in the IPA. Is it your mates in New Zealand? Because alright, they might have a better shot at the unaspirated stops from any knowledge of Maori, assuming they can get their head around the technical jargon that is the word "unaspirated" – and for that matter, "tap" and "stressed" – but they'll trip up on like, all the vowels. You kinda need to remember that to someone who doesn't know the IPA, assuming that you are actually going to show them this, it's not trivial when you write pronunciation guides like this what you're referring to. It's all fine and well to say [a] as in cot or as in boot, but there is no a or u in either of those words, so yeah, ok it's fair to assume that it's the vowel but you can't always assume that. To a person that doesn't know the IPA, [ɔ] could be a consonant – after all, it looks like c.

people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. but maybe that's the wrong metaphor.

[Shrdlu]

Made a lang that lacks both nasals and plosives and the vowel /a/.... for the hell of it. No name as of now.

An early sketch for your viewing pleasure.
------------------------
consonant
velar k k' kq kx
dental d d' dq dx t t' tq tx th
fricative fx v vq w wq s z sh sh' ch ch' c(ts) g ll
rotoric r r'
approximant dj j

syllable+/q/ is pharyngeal
syllable+/x/ is sort-of labilar and is done in the mouth by cupping of the tounge.
/th/ is a Voiced dental fricative
/g/ is a Voiced velar fricative
/ll/ is a Voiceless alveolar lateral fricative

vowel
',e,i,y,u,ú
ú is a Close central rounded vowel, u is a Close back rounded vowel
/'/ glotal stop

some rules I have formulated
Morphology
A word may contain only consonants, however /fricatives/ may not follow /dentals/ and vice versa without a /vowel/ inbetween.
All nouns end in /c(ts)/ or /d/ but never both
/k/ is /g//Voiced velar plosive) between vowels
/t/ is /d/ between vowels or after a glotal stop
/r/ is a flap before vowels or after /t/

Lacks consonant combinations /st/ and /ks/ and /sw/ <--- Yep, I took one of the most common combinations and then a few not so common and threw them away as I hope that it will benefit me in the long run and that the language will look distinct.

-------END--------


As you can see: I love Salishian languages and everything in general with consonant clusters. Need some constructive comments, folks!

[Astraios]

...

[roninbodhisattva]

...

This was basically my reaction.

[Kvan]

velar k k' kq kx
dental d d' dq dx t t' tq tx th
fricative fx v vq w wq s z sh sh' ch ch' c(ts) g ll

You said you liked Salishan languages but fx? vq? I got a triple consonant cluster for you: wtf?

I assume this is your transcription of the sounds. What are the IPA or at least X-SAMPA equivalents here?

Edit: Shrdlu, I don't mean to sound like an ass, I just reread the post and it comes off a bit harsh. At any rate welcome to the board, and perhaps can we have that X-SAMPA or IPA transcription?

[Shrdlu]

velar k k' kq kx
dental d d' dq dx t t' tq tx th
fricative fx v vq w wq s z sh sh' ch ch' c(ts) g ll

You said you liked Salishan languages but fx? vq? I got a triple consonant cluster for you: wtf?

I assume this is your transcription of the sounds. What are the IPA or at least X-SAMPA equivalents here?

Edit: Shrdlu, I don't mean to sound like an ass, I just reread the post and it comes off a bit harsh. At any rate welcome to the board, and perhaps can we have that X-SAMPA or IPA transcription?

No sweat.
Look below what i wrote

syllable+/q/ is pharyngeal
syllable+/x/ is sort-of labilar and is done in the mouth by cupping of the tounge.
/th/ is a Voiced dental fricative
/g/ is a Voiced velar fricative
/ll/ is a Voiceless alveolar lateral fricative

/'/ is just a glotal stop

Gonna have to look up what X-SAMPA or IPA transcription for this is.

[Kvan]

velar k k' kq kx
dental d d' dq dx t t' tq tx th
fricative fx v vq w wq s z sh sh' ch ch' c(ts) g ll

You said you liked Salishan languages but fx? vq? I got a triple consonant cluster for you: wtf?

I assume this is your transcription of the sounds. What are the IPA or at least X-SAMPA equivalents here?

Edit: Shrdlu, I don't mean to sound like an ass, I just reread the post and it comes off a bit harsh. At any rate welcome to the board, and perhaps can we have that X-SAMPA or IPA transcription?

No sweat.
Look below what i wrote

syllable+/q/ is pharyngeal
syllable+/x/ is sort-of labilar and is done in the mouth by cupping of the tounge.
/th/ is a Voiced dental fricative
/g/ is a Voiced velar fricative
/ll/ is a Voiceless alveolar lateral fricative

Gonna have to look up what X-SAMPA or IPA transcription for this is.

You still haven't mentioned what the apostrophes are for. Do they indicate ejectives?

And that's not IPA nor X-SAMPA, those letters are your transcription, which is nice to know as well, but the most important thing is the actual inventory. For instance is <f> a voiceless labio-dental fricative? is a voiceless bilabial fricative? What about <t>, since <th> is your "voiceless dental fricative" is your <t> dental as well? Or is it alveolar? You get my drift. Some proper IPA symbols would remedy any ambiguity.

And what is a "labilar?", did you mean "labial"? And if it's done by "cupping the tongue" then it's not labial. Labial refers to the labia/lips. And I find that using <_x> for this is a bit off-kilter.

[Shrdlu]

I added it before you responded, /'/ is an glotal stop.
But yeah, I should probably come back when I learn X-SAMPA or IPA transcription.

The sound produced by "cupping the tongue" was described as a "labial" on a wiki page I can not find anymore but it was about a salish language.

[Kvan]

I added it before you responded, /'/ is an glotal stop.
But yeah, I should probably come back when I learn X-SAMPA or IPA transcription.

The sound produced by "cupping the tongue" was described as a "labial" on a wiki page I can not find anymore but it was about a salish language.

Cupping the tongue? Nope. Labial inherently refers to the lips.

I can't speak specifically about Salishan languages, my knowledge is sparse in that area.

Perhaps the word you're confusing it with has to do with Apical, or Coronal articulation? I'm not quite sure.

[Shrdlu]

I added it before you responded, /'/ is an glotal stop.
But yeah, I should probably come back when I learn X-SAMPA or IPA transcription.

The sound produced by "cupping the tongue" was described as a "labial" on a wiki page I can not find anymore but it was about a salish language.

Cupping the tongue? Nope. Labial inherently refers to the lips.

I can't speak specifically about Salishan languages, my knowledge is sparse in that area.

Perhaps the word you're confusing it with has to do with Apical, or Coronal articulation? I'm not quite sure.

No, not confusing: I know it is not an labial, but I kept it as such for lack of a better term. It is probably an Apical(I'll add that to my notes).

Ok... back to reserching X-SAMPA and IPA transcription

[cromulant]

*The "rounded" consonants, including /w/, are not labialized—the effect is created entirely inside the mouth by cupping the tongue.

Emphasis mine.

[Shrdlu]

*The "rounded" consonants, including /w/, are not labialized—the effect is created entirely inside the mouth by cupping the tongue.

Emphasis mine.

Whatever, I know now that it is an apical. Thanks for finding the page.