Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

[brandrinn]

How high is that central spine of mountains? I'm assuming they're pretty eroded, since there's no active subduction zone there. Are they something like the Appalachians? If so, most of it will only be about 1000-2000 m, which isn't enough to drastically change the climate, beyond maybe a bit more snow in winter.

[Dewrad]

I've no interest in taking part, but a couple of words of advice from one who took part in the original reconstruction game:

- Basileus is right. Don't try to make it too hard. This is why the reconstruction element of the first game fell flat on its face: people went too far down the obfustication route (Qedik in particular from Team A). It was just too difficult to reconstruct even Ndak Ta from the forms Adāta, Naidda, Ndok Aisô, Edástə and Qedik (yes, they're all exact cognates).
- If there's six of you on each team, I suggest that in each team you pair up and agree on, say, your first ten soundchanges (chronologically speaking). That way you've got three ready-made subfamilies in each team. Or three and three, or whatever. Just for verisimilitude's sake: the Adāta, Ndok Aisô and Naidda should really have been originally from a dialect continuum, not developed in a vacuum (IIRC, Raidus and I swapped some ideas on Adāta and Naidda, but that's about it.)
- Include some derivational morphology.

[brandrinn]

Thanks for the advice!

- If there's six of you on each team, I suggest that in each team you pair up and agree on, say, your first ten soundchanges (chronologically speaking). That way you've got three ready-made subfamilies in each team. Or three and three, or whatever. Just for verisimilitude's sake: the Adāta, Ndok Aisô and Naidda should really have been originally from a dialect continuum, not developed in a vacuum (IIRC, Raidus and I swapped some ideas on Adāta and Naidda, but that's about it.)

But I have an issue with this. If there is a phoneme X, then each reflex offers a piece of data for its reconstruction. But if you group pairs of languages into subfamilies, then you only get half as many data points, because each subfamily only counts as one. Plus, you'd have to reconstruct two stages, the subfamily's common ancestor, and then the initial protolanguage.

But I agree 100% about making sure the reflexes are not absurd, and do not develop in a vacuum. I'm hoping that we in Team 2 can keep our sound changes realistic and communicate about areal features or similar changes over time.

[Pogostick Man]

Works for me. Alright, everybody, start picking nice spots. Where will your people be after 2000 years?

At -2000:

I think I'd like my group to just gradually migrate to the northwest until they hit the mountains, and then stay there, perhaps spread out a bit throughout that depression-thing, just kind of bounded in by the mountain ranges. Realistic/workable?

[Cedh]

Works for me. Alright, everybody, start picking nice spots. Where will your people be after 2000 years?

At -2000:

I think I'd like my group to just gradually migrate to from the northwest until they hit the mountains, and then stay there, perhaps spread out a bit throughout that depression-thing, just kind of bounded in by the mountain ranges. Realistic/workable?

I think that should work. (Although you're on the other team, which starts near the northwestern corner of that map, so your people will have to move into the mountains from there.)

[Herr Dunkel]

How's it going, Team 1?

[Pogostick Man]

Works for me. Alright, everybody, start picking nice spots. Where will your people be after 2000 years?

At -2000:

I think I'd like my group to just gradually migrate to from the northwest until they hit the mountains, and then stay there, perhaps spread out a bit throughout that depression-thing, just kind of bounded in by the mountain ranges. Realistic/workable?

I think that should work. (Although you're on the other team, which starts near the northwestern corner of that map, so your people will have to move into the mountains from there.)

FAIL on my end, thanks for the catch.

[Earthling]

My people could move northwards, maybe to that lake.

earthlingslocation.jpg (34.37 KiB) Viewed 5549 times

[brandrinn]

Since we still don't know what kinds of crops are available, I'm guessing we're all sedentary farmers. If there are going to be pastoralists, we'll want to know soon. BTW, anyone on Team 1, feel free to invade the southern part of the peninsula. We can always move out of the way.

[Basilius]

Don't try to make it too hard. This is why the reconstruction element of the first game fell flat on its face: people went too far down the obfustication route (Qedik in particular from Team A). It was just too difficult to reconstruct even Ndak Ta from the forms Adāta, Naidda, Ndok Aisô, Edástə and Qedik (yes, they're all exact cognates).

Thank you for sharing on this! One of those valuable things that can't be learned but from painful experience...

BTW, the current discussion in PM's among Team 2 members shows that the feasibility of reconsctruction has been recognized as the priority No. 1 (and the main source of headache at this point: several phonology sketches were rejected because of potential problems with reconstructibility).

I hope Team 1 takes this issue seriously, too ;)

If there's six of you on each team, I suggest that in each team you pair up and agree on, say, your first ten soundchanges (chronologically speaking). That way you've got three ready-made subfamilies in each team. Or three and three, or whatever.

Six co-equal branches are not too many yet, IMO. Cf. Indo-European or Afro-Asiatic.

But I think we must encourage the players, e. g. by alotting extra time for this, to sketch intermediary stages, as I proposed earlier. If we have a Round 2 organized as a "free-style" relay, people will be able to pick those intermediary stages as protolanguages, too, and we'll have a less lawn-like genealogical tree in the end.

Also, I'd suggest not to claim large territories ATM. I propose that we describe our conlangs as essentially single-settlement lects. Then, if we indeed have Round 2, the sexiest projects produced by Round 1 will naturally gain higher status and may claim largest areas.

And exact territories don't seem so important for the current relay.

[Basilius]

Since we still don't know what kinds of crops are available, I'm guessing we're all sedentary farmers.

I suggest that we can consider all the crops and domestic animals appearing in Proto-Isles lexicon *except* horse and donkey.

(The latter two are related words in PI, and our last discussion of horse demestication left me with the feeling that importing horses from Peilaš wasn't unambiguously excluded.)

Are any other exemptions necessary?

[Cedh]

I think it would be good to have something more suitable than PMs to communicate within the teams. I've just had a look at the configuration options for the AkanaForum, and it looks like I could create two secret subforums there which can only be accessed by a closed group of people. Within each of these fora, the teams would be able to do pretty much all the same things that we can do here on the ZBB (including creating as many separate discussion threads as needed). The other team wouldn't be able to see it while the game is in progress, but we could easily change the view permissions afterwards so we'd have a public documentation of the game (if this is wanted, of course).

If you think this is a good idea, please say so. I can modify the settings for that sometime tomorrow, but of course those of you who do not have an account over at that forum already will need to register before I can set the permissions for you

[Basilius]

cedh: excellent!!!

I just wanted to ask people if anyone can suggest a webspace for the discussion among Team 2 members. Because I got tired deleting (and saving backups of) old messages in my PM box ;)

[Earthling]

I think that's a good idea. I was thinking of joining the Akana forum anyway since I've been inadvertently dragged into Akana...
In fact, I'll go join now.

[Herr Dunkel]

I think it would be good to have something more suitable than PMs to communicate within the teams. I've just had a look at the configuration options for the AkanaForum, and it looks like I could create two secret subforums there which can only be accessed by a closed group of people. Within each of these fora, the teams would be able to do pretty much all the same things that we can do here on the ZBB (including creating as many separate discussion threads as needed). The other team wouldn't be able to see it while the game is in progress, but we could easily change the view permissions afterwards so we'd have a public documentation of the game (if this is wanted, of course).

If you think this is a good idea, please say so. I can modify the settings for that sometime tomorrow, but of course those of you who do not have an account over at that forum already will need to register before I can set the permissions for you

Le cool.

*goes to register over at Akanaforums*

[Pogostick Man]

Reg'd.

[communistplot]

Registered. :0

[dunomapuka]

Since we still don't know what kinds of crops are available, I'm guessing we're all sedentary farmers.

I suggest that we can consider all the crops and domestic animals appearing in Proto-Isles lexicon *except* horse and donkey.

Maybe MINUS a few more items? I don't want us to fall into the trap of having every single crop in every part of the world.

(not participating in the game, just popping in to comment)

[Herr Dunkel]

Maybe MINUS a few more items? I don't want us to fall into the trap of having every single crop in every part of the world.

(not participating in the game, just popping in to comment)

Whyever so, Tovarisch?

[Cedh]

I think it would be good to have something more suitable than PMs to communicate within the teams. I've just had a look at the configuration options for the AkanaForum, and it looks like I could create two secret subforums there which can only be accessed by a closed group of people. Within each of these fora, the teams would be able to do pretty much all the same things that we can do here on the ZBB (including creating as many separate discussion threads as needed). The other team wouldn't be able to see it while the game is in progress, but we could easily change the view permissions afterwards so we'd have a public documentation of the game (if this is wanted, of course).

If you think this is a good idea, please say so. I can modify the settings for that sometime tomorrow, but of course those of you who do not have an account over at that forum already will need to register before I can set the permissions for you

The secret fora have been created, and permissions set for those who have joined already. (Darkgamma - you said you'd joined but I couldn't find you. Did you use a different username?)
I've also created a non-secret forum for the discussion of issues that concern both teams.

[Herr Dunkel]

The secret fora have been created, and permissions set for those who have joined already. (Darkgamma - you said you'd joined but I couldn't find you. Did you use a different username?)

Rostov-na-don

[Cedh]

The secret fora have been created, and permissions set for those who have joined already. (Darkgamma - you said you'd joined but I couldn't find you. Did you use a different username?)

Rostov-na-don

OK, you now have Team 2 permissions too.

[Herr Dunkel]

Yay me

[Basilius]

Since we still don't know what kinds of crops are available, I'm guessing we're all sedentary farmers.

I suggest that we can consider all the crops and domestic animals appearing in Proto-Isles lexicon *except* horse and donkey.

Maybe MINUS a few more items? I don't want us to fall into the trap of having every single crop in every part of the world.

Our locations are closer to the area where agriculture originated on Tuysáfa; I'd suppose that PI speakers knew a subset of crops/animals known near the SE tip of the continent.

But some crops/animals could be imported from Peilaš (by PI speakers much earlier than by peoples in the opposite half of Tuysáfa), so whatever was also known in Peilaš (including horse) is dubious. I can't compile a list of such items offhand; can anyone help?

[Cedh]

(Updated permissions for caedes and WeepingElf.)