Sound Change Quickie Thread

[Nortaneous]

alright, this is totally roundabout but

z > l > ʎ / V[+front]_
ai au oi eu > a a o e (maybe have some conditioning based on preceding consonant or following n so the two contrast after i u also)
ʎ > dʒ > dz
z dz > s ts / _#

[Shrdlu]

/k[k]/ as an allophone of /p[p]/ in initial position? No/yes?

[KathTheDragon]

That was very roundabout.

I think I'll go for something simpler, and I think I'll have /z/ > /ʒ/ after /i/ at least, giving another reflex.

Edit: Speaking of which, I've think I've decided what I'll go for. Thanks for all your help!

[KathTheDragon]

Unrelated, but what can you do with nasal vowels that's not >VN?

[Pole, the]

Length? Diphthongization? Shift? Phonation?

[Nortaneous]

Merge them together and then merge them into oral vowels. Nasal vowels usually distinguish fewer places than oral vowels, so you could have ĩ ũ > ẽ õ or ẽ õ > ĩ ũ, or even ĩ ỹ ũ ẽ ø̃ õ > æ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ (I think that's right, w/e) and then æ̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃ > ã ã ũ > a a u, or æ̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃ > ẽ ã ã > e a a, or æ̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃ > a a a...

[Pole, the]

Merge them together and then merge them into oral vowels. Nasal vowels usually distinguish fewer places than oral vowels, so you could have ĩ ũ > ẽ õ or ẽ õ > ĩ ũ, or even ĩ ỹ ũ ẽ ø̃ õ > æ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ (I think that's right, w/e)

Stolen from French?

[----]

Interesting things I can do with pre-nasalized stops? Proto-Dbe has /mp nt ntS nk/, and they can appear initially or medially (but not clustered with any other consonants).

[CatDoom]

I was reading a little about prenasalized stops recently; one fairly obvious thing is that they're most salient when both the nasalized onset and the oral release can be heard affecting adjacent vowels. It seems reasonable that they might turn into plain stops initially but remain medially, before turning into something else in that position. Alternately, you could have them merge with plain stops entirely, but have medial prenasalized stops leave nasalization on the preceding vowel.

A lot of languages that contrast nasals and prenasalized stops in onset position reinforce that contrast by having plain nasals spread nasalization onto the following vowel. That could become another source of phonemic nasal vowels, depending on what kind of consonant changes you work in.

[Pogostick Man]

Merge them together and then merge them into oral vowels. Nasal vowels usually distinguish fewer places than oral vowels, so you could have ĩ ũ > ẽ õ or ẽ õ > ĩ ũ, or even ĩ ỹ ũ ẽ ø̃ õ > æ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ æ̃ ɔ̃ (I think that's right, w/e) and then æ̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃ > ã ã ũ > a a u, or æ̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃ > ẽ ã ã > e a a, or æ̃ ɑ̃ ɔ̃ > a a a...

Nasalized high vowels a gap in the mid ones is attested too; Nyarafolo has /a aː ɛ iɛ e i iː ɔ uɔ o u uː/ for the oral vowels but /ã ãː ɛ̃ ĩɛ̃ ĩ ĩː ɔ̃ ũɔ̃ ũ ũː/, per DeGraaf, DeGraaf, and Boese (2006).

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

Is possible that /pʶɹ/ [pʀ]?
* this would apply to all of my uvularized consonant series and also near /r/ as well.

[Pole, the]

[ɕ] → [ɬ]
Hot or not?

[Nortaneous]

Ahzoh: Uvular trills don't contrast with uvular fricatives, so that'd just be approximant loss in a cluster followed by fricative ejection. Looks fine to me.

Pole: I don't see why not.

[TheCommissar]

Could I have Vn > Ṽə word-finally? I have a three-vowel system I want to expand and a lot of word-final nasals.

[CatDoom]

Not sure about Vn turning into a diphthong, but you could definitely have Vn > Ṽ, and then subsequently have nasal vowels undergo a shift in quality before ultimately losing their nasalization.

[KathTheDragon]

Or compensatory lengthening, loss of nasalisation, then breaking into diphthongs.

[Nortaneous]

some Austronesian langs did weird shit with final nasals -- Burmese had in > aJ, which could maybe go to ajn > e. but an > ajn > e is equally plausible.

[Pogostick Man]

Could I have Vn > Ṽə word-finally? I have a three-vowel system I want to expand and a lot of word-final nasals.

I don't see why not…as a speaker of Inland North I have æ → æə̯ / _N. Doesn't seem too implausible for other vowels to follow suit.

[----]

some Austronesian langs did weird shit with final nasals -- Burmese had in > aJ, which could maybe go to ajn > e. but an > ajn > e is equally plausible.

I think you've got it backwards for Burmese; the sequence အည် is written as if it was <-añ> but is actually pronounced as [ĩ / i] or apparently in some cases, [ɛ]. Unless it went to aJ and then back to where it was before, which would be weird.

[Nortaneous]

The correspondences that I've seen were all for written Burmese, so unless it's a weird orthographic convention my guess is that it really did go in > añ > ĩ/i/ɛ.

[WeepingElf]

some Austronesian langs did weird shit with final nasals -- Burmese had in > aJ, which could maybe go to ajn > e. but an > ajn > e is equally plausible.

I think you've got it backwards for Burmese; the sequence အည် is written as if it was <-añ> but is actually pronounced as [ĩ / i] or apparently in some cases, [ɛ]. Unless it went to aJ and then back to where it was before, which would be weird.

Also, Burmese is not Austronesian.

[Pogostick Man]

Also, Burmese is not Austronesian.

Of course it is. Didn't you read last month's Northeastern Mesoamerican Journal for the Advancement of Serious but Crackpot Theories in Historical Linguistics?

[Nortaneous]

how the hell did i do that

anyway, PTB *m-sin > WB sany: > MB a.sany: [ʔəθɛ́], looks like *-it > WB -ac too

another possibility: Proto-Lolo-Burmese -im -in -ing -um -un -ung > Lahu ɛ ɨ ɛ ɔ ə ɛ. dunno what happened with nonhigh vowels tho

[----]

anyway, PTB *m-sin > WB sany: > MB a.sany: [ʔəθɛ́], looks like *-it > WB -ac too

Huh, so it really does go back--Burmese <-ac> is pronounced [ɪʔ].

[Nortaneous]

...it's not just a really weird WB spelling convention, right?