Sound Change Quickie Thread

[Nortaneous]

eh, Pohnpeian is all pwehlet pwehlet mwarki pwihn lahpo pahn pwehlet wahroahmw so

you might be able to go from Pʷ to labial-velars -- I did this in one of my conlangs -- but doesn't it go the other way in Austronesian? bw > bg happened in Kinyarwanda I think, along with more C{j w} cluster fortition, so you could do that and then delete the /b/ in that cluster initially

[Mugitus]

Anyway I can develop Linguolabials?

[----]

Palatalization of labials, actually. It happened in one language I can't remember the name of. But before front vowels, p > p̪ , and then later > t.

[TaylorS]

Palatalization of labials, actually. It happened in one language I can't remember the name of. But before front vowels, p > p̪ , and then later > t.

Vanuatu?

[TaylorS]

Any objections to:

Initial /θ ð/ > /t̪ d̪/ > /r/, Intervocallic /θ ð/ > /l/?

[----]

Palatalization of labials, actually. It happened in one language I can't remember the name of. But before front vowels, p > p̪ , and then later > t.

Vanuatu?

yah, that's it. Tolomako has the full change and then Big Nambas has kept the linguolabials (I'm assuming they arose from the same process).

[vokzhen]

Any objections to:

Initial /θ ð/ > /t̪ d̪/ > /r/, Intervocallic /θ ð/ > /l/?

No, though initial lenition like that is a bit unexpected (especially, I feel, with /r/, given it seems to have cross-linguistic tendencies to be forbidden initially), and it might be better to just skip straight to θ ð > r if it's not a problem. Or if you've got an alveolar set, it might be a bit more likely for d > r, and the resulting imbalance of /t̪ d̪ t/ plays out in some way. Still, it wouldn't surprise me, the others just wouldn't surprise me even more.

[Nortaneous]

d > l initially seems more likely than d > r, but #_ is an odd environment for voicing

[Qwynegold]

Vokzhen: But that's fortition and not lenition.

Anyway, I have a question too:

eː, oː ie, ue

Which condition would be better for this? When they're stressed, or when they're unstressed?

[StrangerCoug]

I would say stressed based on Spanish. Diphthongization doesn't occur in unstressed syllables in that language, which leads to some alternation in different word forms. (It derives from short /e o/, though.)

[vokzhen]

Vokzhen: But that's fortition and not lenition.

Two stages, fortition /θ ð/ > /t̪ d̪/ and lenition /t̪ d̪/ > /r/. I'd be a bit surprised by the second. It'd make a lot more sense to me if it was just directly /θ ð/ > /r/.

Anyway, I have a question too:

eː, oː ie, ue

Which condition would be better for this? When they're stressed, or when they're unstressed?

A quick, highly-biased sampling from the Wikipedia page on vowel breaking seems to show stress is common for breaking, and possibly even required (but see: highly biased sample).

[Qwynegold]

StrangerCoug, vokzhen: Okay, thanks!

Vokzhen: But that's fortition and not lenition.

Two stages, fortition /θ ð/ > /t̪ d̪/ and lenition /t̪ d̪/ > /r/. I'd be a bit surprised by the second. It'd make a lot more sense to me if it was just directly /θ ð/ > /r/.

Oh that, yeah. But if he has contrasting alveolars, then maybe {t̪, d̪} r̪ wouldn't be so odd?

[vokzhen]

Vokzhen: But that's fortition and not lenition.

Two stages, fortition /θ ð/ > /t̪ d̪/ and lenition /t̪ d̪/ > /r/. I'd be a bit surprised by the second. It'd make a lot more sense to me if it was just directly /θ ð/ > /r/.

Oh that, yeah. But if he has contrasting alveolars, then maybe {t̪, d̪} r̪ wouldn't be so odd?

A word-initial stop - especially a voiceless one - into a liquid is still pretty odd to me. Of course, there's plenty of weirder natlang changes, and as I said earlier it's not enough for me to question the validity of it, but it would definitely draw my attention.

[Pole, the]

Wouldn'r /θ ð/ → /ð̞/ → /ɹ̪/ suffice?

[KathTheDragon]

How's i i: > e i?

[Tiamat]

How's i i: > e i?

Didn't that happen pretty frequently in romance languages

[mezziah]

What leads from ZERO to /ħ/? Is /autem/ to /ħad/ plausible?

And also, which was highly disputed: How can CVn clustrers turn into CʲV? Like, /cant-are/ into /kyat-/?

[Dē Graut Bʉr]

Maybe CVN CṼ CV: CjV?

[Nortaneous]

What leads from ZERO to /ħ/? Is /autem/ to /ħad/ plausible?

And also, which was highly disputed: How can CVn clustrers turn into CʲV? Like, /cant-are/ into /kyat-/?

didn't Somali eject a voiced pharyngeal before #a? or just have h-insertion word-initially and then the h gets colored by the following vowel

you probably can't turn all CVn clusters into CʲV but could have n / _C front the preceding vowel and drop like in Tibetan

[TaylorS]

Wouldn'r /θ ð/ → /ð̞/ → /ɹ̪/ suffice?

To bring the topic back to my question, this is for my Future English and I want to do something interesting to the English interdentals besides just merging them with the alveolar stops. At the same time I want at least /ð/ to end up as a liquid so schwa deletion does not lead to awkward articulations for the definite article when it comes before a word that starts with an alveolar obstruent.

I have them fortition to dental stops initially because that is what occurs in my own dialect.

[WeepingElf]

Wouldn'r /θ ð/ → /ð̞/ → /ɹ̪/ suffice?

To bring the topic back to my question, this is for my Future English and I want to do something interesting to the English interdentals besides just merging them with the alveolar stops. At the same time I want at least /ð/ to end up as a liquid so schwa deletion does not lead to awkward articulations for the definite article when it comes before a word that starts with an alveolar obstruent.

I have them fortition to dental stops initially because that is what occurs in my own dialect.

Another option would be /θ ð/ > /ts dz/, I think.

[Nortaneous]

Lenition in all unstressed non-cluster environments: plausible or no?

Also thinking about a split of /o/, giving a vowel system of /a e ɤ uo i u/ with ɤ~uo vowel harmony: póto potó > póto botó > hóto buotó > hɤdɤ buotuo

[Pogostick Man]

Wouldn'r /θ ð/ → /ð̞/ → /ɹ̪/ suffice?

To bring the topic back to my question, this is for my Future English and I want to do something interesting to the English interdentals besides just merging them with the alveolar stops. At the same time I want at least /ð/ to end up as a liquid so schwa deletion does not lead to awkward articulations for the definite article when it comes before a word that starts with an alveolar obstruent.

I have them fortition to dental stops initially because that is what occurs in my own dialect.

Have initial obstruents voice (/θ ð/ → /ð/ → /ɹ̪/)—that's plausible enough but you'd have to voice all the obstruents, I think, or at least a natural class.

[----]

Lenition in all unstressed non-cluster environments: plausible or no?

Seems fine to me. Some Berber languages have pretty broad lenition rules.

[Cedh]

Wouldn'r /θ ð/ → /ð̞/ → /ɹ̪/ suffice?

To bring the topic back to my question, this is for my Future English and I want to do something interesting to the English interdentals besides just merging them with the alveolar stops. At the same time I want at least /ð/ to end up as a liquid so schwa deletion does not lead to awkward articulations for the definite article when it comes before a word that starts with an alveolar obstruent.

I have them fortition to dental stops initially because that is what occurs in my own dialect.

Have initial obstruents voice (/θ ð/ → /ð/ → /ɹ̪/)—that's plausible enough but you'd have to voice all the obstruents, I think, or at least a natural class.

At one point in its history, German voiced all syllable-initial prevocalic instances of /s/, but not any other obstruents (compare German die Sonne scheint /diː zɔnə ʃaɪnt/ with English the sun shines /ðə sʌn ʃaɪnz/), so I think voicing only /θ/ in word-initial position should be fine.