Sound Change Quickie Thread
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
English prince/prints, fence/fents, ham(p)ster, dream(p)t, streng(k)th where nasal+voiceless clusters have a stop homorganic to the nasal inserted. I wouldn't expect backing of the nasal unless *all* coda /n/ collapse to velar, though, otherwise place assimilation is much more likely for the coronals.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Retroflexes are often velarized, so I could imagine *nʂ > ŋʂ (> ŋkʂ) happening as well. Sanskrit has a sort of similar change: *tʂ, *cʂ > kʂ.
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Thanks, Tropylium
Is this possible ?
m n > b d /_ on the stressed syllable
or
b d > m n /Ṽ_ on the syllable strictly after the stressed syllable
Is this possible ?
m n > b d /_ on the stressed syllable
or
b d > m n /Ṽ_ on the syllable strictly after the stressed syllable
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
some dialects of korean have m n > b d / #_, some PNW langs had unconditional m n > b d
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
This seems reasonably. Tuscarora had t > n /_Ṽ, which is similar.Daedolon wrote:b d > m n /Ṽ_ on the syllable strictly after the stressed syllable
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I've read that ejectives can turn into voiced consonants. I've also read that ejective fricatives are not formed by the same technique as ejective stops, and that they are both less common and less stable.
I have a parent language that has a stop series T T' D, and a fricative series S S'. Two daughters merged the ejective fricatives with the plain ones; one followed Arabic and Aramaic in making ejectives pharyngealized instead; one kept the system intact. But I have one more daughter language that I want to do something different with--namely, voicing the fricatives. Can I have S' > Z without T' > D?
I have a parent language that has a stop series T T' D, and a fricative series S S'. Two daughters merged the ejective fricatives with the plain ones; one followed Arabic and Aramaic in making ejectives pharyngealized instead; one kept the system intact. But I have one more daughter language that I want to do something different with--namely, voicing the fricatives. Can I have S' > Z without T' > D?
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I'd sort of expect instead a chainshift S S' > Z S actually, but anything involving ejective fricatives sounds very difficult to find actual precedents for.
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yeah, they're definitely an oddity. Thanks.Tropylium wrote:I'd sort of expect instead a chainshift S S' > Z S actually, but anything involving ejective fricatives sounds very difficult to find actual precedents for.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
In a language which undergoes liquid metathesis, like what the Slavic languages went through, what might happen with a word like *norto or *nolto? Is it realistic that they fully metathesize to *nroto/*nloto (with a subsequent change to eliminate the initial cluster), or would it be more likely that they become *noroto/*noloto, preventing the cluster completely?
AKA Benjaburns
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
PSl. *norvъ 'custom' > OCS nrav (loaned into Russian as nrav, coexisting with native norov), Bulgarian and Slovene nrav, Macedonian and Serbo-Croatian narav, Polish narów, and Czech and Slovak mrav with dissimilation from earlier nrav.
So you can either block reduction of the original vowel after pleophony (as in Macedonian, Polish, and Serbo-Croatian), allow reduction (as in Bulgarian, Slovene, and OCS), allow reduction and dissimilate the cluster (as in Czech and Slovak), or allow reduction with epenthesis to ndl- ndr- (as is apparently optional in Russian).
There's nothing wrong with initial nr- nl- clusters -- see Dorig... never mind, Dorig seems to prohibit nr- nl-. See Tocharian B nrai 'hell'. (I can't find any TB roots with initial nl-, but I can't find any PSl. roots with nVlC- either.)
So you can either block reduction of the original vowel after pleophony (as in Macedonian, Polish, and Serbo-Croatian), allow reduction (as in Bulgarian, Slovene, and OCS), allow reduction and dissimilate the cluster (as in Czech and Slovak), or allow reduction with epenthesis to ndl- ndr- (as is apparently optional in Russian).
There's nothing wrong with initial nr- nl- clusters -- see Dorig... never mind, Dorig seems to prohibit nr- nl-. See Tocharian B nrai 'hell'. (I can't find any TB roots with initial nl-, but I can't find any PSl. roots with nVlC- either.)
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Me neither, and Derksen also doesn't have any.Nortaneous wrote:but I can't find any PSl. roots with nVlC- either.)
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Much appreciated.Nortaneous wrote:PSl. *norvъ 'custom' > OCS nrav (loaned into Russian as nrav, coexisting with native norov), Bulgarian and Slovene nrav, Macedonian and Serbo-Croatian narav, Polish narów, and Czech and Slovak mrav with dissimilation from earlier nrav.
So you can either block reduction of the original vowel after pleophony (as in Macedonian, Polish, and Serbo-Croatian), allow reduction (as in Bulgarian, Slovene, and OCS), allow reduction and dissimilate the cluster (as in Czech and Slovak), or allow reduction with epenthesis to ndl- ndr- (as is apparently optional in Russian).
There's nothing wrong with initial nr- nl- clusters -- see Dorig... never mind, Dorig seems to prohibit nr- nl-. See Tocharian B nrai 'hell'. (I can't find any TB roots with initial nl-, but I can't find any PSl. roots with nVlC- either.)
AKA Benjaburns
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
- Posts: 269
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:56 pm
- Location: El Paso, TX
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I have what's supposed to be the protolang for a large language family with an inventory of /a aː e eː i iː o oː u uː p b̥ b̬ m t d̥ d̬ n s z̥ z̬ z̃ k ɡ̊ ɡ̌ ŋ/ and a syllable structure of (C)V(C). Coda consonants are permitted only after a short vowel and are limited to /p t s k/ there from a morphophonemic standpoint, but there are no other phonotactic restrictions right now. What are some interesting ways to play with the voiceless/slack/stiff contrast? (And what's the most plausible default voicing for the nasals in this kind of system?)
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
sangi39 wrote:I can't remember exactly where I was going with this (possibly some sort of "initial mutation" scenario after reading something on Facebook), but does > [β ð ɣ] adjacent to [r] (and possibly [l] and maybe [z]) seem plausible, with remaining as such in all other positions?
I might be remembering something incorrectly, but didn't a similar change on the history of Welsh?
Either way, it seems to make sense to me, but I don't want to do anything with it until I've gotten a second opinion.
Next to [r] I can see that happening (at least an [r] didn't stop it happening to b in Spanish), and I could see a parallel thing happening with l, but I think zed would harden the sound rather than soften it
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
- Avisaru
- Posts: 516
- Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:45 pm
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Could a language have /ð/without /θ/?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
The conlanger formerly known as “the conlanger formerly known as Pole, the”.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
If we don't study the mistakes of the future we're doomed to repeat them for the first time.
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
According to UPSID: (restricting the search to only one #{POA} non-sibilant fricative and picking out the ones where that fricative is voiced and not a fricated tap/trill)
Voiced dental non-sibilant fricative: Aleut, Cubeo, Dahalo, Fijian, Guarani, Koiari, Mari, Mazatec, Mixtec, Moro, Nganasan, Quechua, Tacana.
Voiced dental-alveolar non-sibilant fricative: Highland Chinantec, Huave.
Voiced alveolar non-sibilant fricative: Karen.
Aleut and Cubeo are right, although some dialects of Aleut have /θ/. Dahalo and Guarani do not appear to have /ð/. Koiari, Mari, Mazatec, and Mixtec are multiple languages. I don't care enough to check the rest, but UPSID always has to be taken with several mines of salt.
In Cubeo, /ð/ is a recent and IIRC only marginally contrastive development from *j. Fijian has a series of fricatives/approximants /β ð ɰ/.
Voiced dental non-sibilant fricative: Aleut, Cubeo, Dahalo, Fijian, Guarani, Koiari, Mari, Mazatec, Mixtec, Moro, Nganasan, Quechua, Tacana.
Voiced dental-alveolar non-sibilant fricative: Highland Chinantec, Huave.
Voiced alveolar non-sibilant fricative: Karen.
Aleut and Cubeo are right, although some dialects of Aleut have /θ/. Dahalo and Guarani do not appear to have /ð/. Koiari, Mari, Mazatec, and Mixtec are multiple languages. I don't care enough to check the rest, but UPSID always has to be taken with several mines of salt.
In Cubeo, /ð/ is a recent and IIRC only marginally contrastive development from *j. Fijian has a series of fricatives/approximants /β ð ɰ/.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Bunun has /ð/. Some Finnish dialects, and a bunch of Sami languages. Depending on your analysis, (American) Spanish.
Specifically, [ð] occurs between non-high vowels, [j] or [dZ] occur elsewhere. The only place it occurs phonemically is ða- "to make."Nortaneous wrote:In Cubeo, /ð/ is a recent and IIRC only marginally contrastive development from *j.
- GreenBowTie
- Lebom
- Posts: 179
- Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:17 am
- Location: the darkest depths of the bone-chilling night
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Luiseño does.احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:Could a language have /ð/without /θ/?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
So after having learned about one of the world's rarest sounds, the bilabial oral egressive click ʘ↑, found in Damin, I began wondering how it could come into being in a natlang. Maybe something along the lines of kpʼ → ʘ↑, pkʼ → ʘ↑ or even uncoditional pʼ → ʘ↑ in a more extreme case. These do seem far fetched, but more probable than any of ʘ, ʘʔ, ʔʘ turning in it IMO.
Also how likely are l̥ → ɬ and ɬ → l̥ really? The two do not sound alike at all.
Also how likely are l̥ → ɬ and ɬ → l̥ really? The two do not sound alike at all.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Assuming that's a voiceless not a laminal lateral (it's really hard to tell with the forum's font), it happens frequently; the two sounds are interchangeable in many languages.Zju wrote:Also how likely are l̥ → ɬ and ɬ → l̥ really? The two do not sound alike at all.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
- Nortaneous
- Sumerul
- Posts: 4544
- Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
- Location: the Imperial Corridor
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
what's an egressive click?
bilabial clicks are attested as allophones of labial-velars, so
bilabial clicks are attested as allophones of labial-velars, so
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
They are voiceless, I usually copy-paste unknown diacritics into my google bar.Zaarin wrote:Assuming that's a voiceless not a laminal lateral (it's really hard to tell with the forum's font), it happens frequently; the two sounds are interchangeable in many languages.Zju wrote:Also how likely are l̥ → ɬ and ɬ → l̥ really? The two do not sound alike at all.
If you think they don't sound alike at all, either you're abnormally attuned to the difference or the samples/your own pronunciation don't match the prototypical pronunciation. E.g. Welsh /ɬ/ is entirely un-/l̥/-like for many speakers because they pronounce it [ç].
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
- Avisaru
- Posts: 516
- Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:45 pm
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Could homoorganic stops be inserted between nasals and rhotics only, as opposed to including laterals and other liquids?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- alynnidalar
- Avisaru
- Posts: 491
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:35 pm
- Location: Michigan, USA
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How reasonable is Vrn > V:n?
I'm messing about with a non-rhotic (or less-rhotic) variety of Tirina and am trying to think of interesting things to do with the vowels; I don't want to just drop the /r/ and be done with it.
I'm messing about with a non-rhotic (or less-rhotic) variety of Tirina and am trying to think of interesting things to do with the vowels; I don't want to just drop the /r/ and be done with it.
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.