Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Starsinger
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Post by Starsinger »

I received word that activity was picking up over here. Last time I looked in several months ago it seemed not much was happening, so I haven't paid much attention. But I'm glad to see the developments and would be happy to jump back in.

I like my Yhat and was thinking of developing it a little more. It needs a bigger vocabulary. At the time I first did it I was hurrying to get stuff for the relay posted. The previous generations did not give me much, and while I borrowed and compounded a few new words I did not spend much time at it. With the new Adata vocabulary I could imagine a bunch of learned borrowing from the old texts, perhaps as part of a religious revival or something.
Radius Solis wrote: Aθáta, descended largely from the dialects of Hiphago and Radias, came to be spoken in the Tjakori valley and eventually to dominate there. Later, by E'át times, conflict with the Xsali prompted the latter to invade the Tjakori valley once again, deporting thousands upon thousands of residents, resulting in a diaspora of E'át speakers throughout the Xsali empire. Over the next couple generations the E'át speakers tended to congregate in clusters in various points of the Xsali Empire. Most of these clusters later lost their languages in favor of surrounding dominant ones, but one that didn't was on Xsali's far eastern border, on or near the east coast. The variety of E'át spoken there evolved into Yhát. Erhadzy is descended from the Yhát speakers who migrated to Lesan; Öhat, from the Yhát speakers who stayed.
I am fine with this. I didn't have anything in the way of geography or history in mind, or even know there was a map, when I originally worked on the language. Yhat comes from an unusual, although attested, dialect of E'at. I would probably be fine with most other locations and backgrounds for them as well.

I had envisioned a conservative branch of Yhat, which did not develop as Ohat. I was imagining a mountain valley, but if they are to be coastal, an island community could work as well. Somewhere a bit backwards, isolationist, and agricultural, where the old ways and pattterns of speech were kept alive.

Where does Yhat and its generation fall in terms of development? Zhen Lin was talking about nanotechnology and brain implants for Erhadzy, while earlier stuff talks about city-states and barbarian hordes.
zompist wrote: -- Is the intent to fill out the Edastean tree more? Or do descendants of Adata largely take over the subcontinent? (Naturally I'd like to see something descend from Faralo. But logically the high-density Naidda region should have descendants too.)
Naidda looks interesting. I like the participant marking and animacy heirarchy. I could be interested in developing a descendant.
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Post by Corumayas »

Starsinger wrote:I received word that activity was picking up over here. Last time I looked in several months ago it seemed not much was happening, so I haven't paid much attention. But I'm glad to see the developments and would be happy to jump back in.
Hi! I'm glad you stopped back in.
With the new Adata vocabulary I could imagine a bunch of learned borrowing from the old texts, perhaps as part of a religious revival or something.
Yes! We're also planning to relay the new words through the various trees of sound changes so they can be inherited the ordinary way too. I'm not sure if that's started yet or not.

Also, part of the reason we started working on the historical background more was to establish a context in which borrowings between languages could occur in a way that's realistic and consistent. Plus we've got several more languages on the way, which should give even more potential sources for that kind of thing...
I am fine with this. I didn't have anything in the way of geography or history in mind, or even know there was a map, when I originally worked on the language. Yhat comes from an unusual, although attested, dialect of E'at. I would probably be fine with most other locations and backgrounds for them as well.
The whereabouts of E'at isn't for sure decided yet, let alone that of Yhat. Athata has been moved a bit since Radius' proposal that you quoted, so its descendants might end up in different places too. Whatever input you have will be much appreciated.
Where does Yhat and its generation fall in terms of development? Zhen Lin was talking about nanotechnology and brain implants for Erhadzy, while earlier stuff talks about city-states and barbarian hordes.
Erhadzy is set at least 1200 years after Yhat, if I remember correctly. Right now we have a pretty detailed history up to the rough equivalent of the early Roman Empire, and a somewhat vaguer idea of what happens for maybe a thousand years after that. It looks like Ayasthi, Yad, and E'at are all spoken at a time roughly equivalent to late medieval Europe, and Yhat is however long you intend it to be after that.... The pace of technological development isn't necessarily the same as on Earth though.
Naidda looks interesting. I like the participant marking and animacy heirarchy. I could be interested in developing a descendant.
It'd be great if you did. Naidda should have descendants. :)
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Post by Zhen Lin »

On the other hand, Radius is working on a revision of Naidda, so...

This is the original attempt to retcon, err, I mean place the languages into a chronology:
cedh audmanh wrote:---
Ndak Ta: ca. -1800 to -1500 (this is also the time of Sinakan, the hero from our sample text. Timeframe taken from the Fáralo grammar)

Adāta, Fáralo, Naidda, Ndok Aisô, Qedik: ca. +200

Æðadě, Aθáta, Mavakhalan, Kozado: ca. +800

Pencek, Puoni: ca. +1100

Ayāsth, Yād, E'át, Ājat he-Heloun: ca. +1600 to +1800

Zhaj, Yēt, Yhát, Agɑf: ca. +2500

Öhát, Middle Erhadzy, Yïåf: ca. +3200 to +3500 (timeframe taken from the Ghaf grammar)

Aríe, Erhadzy: ca. +3700

Ghaf: ca. +3800 to +4000

Arie, Xa', Orrótx: ca. +4400 to +4600

?Aghïyï: ca. +5200
---

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Post by Radius Solis »

Zhen Lin wrote:On the other hand, Radius is working on a revision of Naidda, so...
Well, I would be, if I had access to all my saved materials for it. It so badly needs a revision... but people have expressed interest in deriving from it anyway, two now, and I don't want to stand in the way of that. So if anybody actually wants to derive a daughter from original-Naidda, go for it, and I can declare the revised version to be a different dialect. Or if nobody gets around to starting before I can get it revised, then that's fine by me too - in that case the original version can just quietly slip into oblivion. :P

Edit:
BEHOLD, Faraghin Diachronics! Explained in terms of its pronouns; other diachronic processes not affecting pronouns have probably also occurred.

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Post by Zhen Lin »

/as/ for the Proto-Isthmus genitive? Now you're just dangling a carrot for me to speculate about Proto-Edast-Isthmus. Then again, /as/ and /ag/ aren't all that close.

(This vaguely reminds me of that thread where people were challenged to reconstruct ancestors of two unrelated languages using dubious methods.)
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Post by Cedh »

Radius Solis wrote:
Zhen Lin wrote:On the other hand, Radius is working on a revision of Naidda, so...
Well, I would be, if I had access to all my saved materials for it. It so badly needs a revision... but people have expressed interest in deriving from it anyway, two now, and I don't want to stand in the way of that. So if anybody actually wants to derive a daughter from original-Naidda, go for it, and I can declare the revised version to be a different dialect. Or if nobody gets around to starting before I can get it revised, then that's fine by me too - in that case the original version can just quietly slip into oblivion. :P
I'd prefer waiting for the new version...
Radius Solis wrote:BEHOLD, Faraghin Diachronics! Explained in terms of its pronouns; other diachronic processes not affecting pronouns have probably also occurred.
I like.
Faraghin Diachronics wrote:In Western Isthmus we find the closely related sister languages Feråjin and Faraghin, spoken in Huyfarah, and the more divergent Boesin (Faralo exonym), spoken in Qedik territory north of the Northern Mountains. Two Eastern Isthmus languages survive on the northwest coast of the northeastern continent (Kietek and Ka'alikora) and a third remains on the Isthmus itself, known in Faralo as Doroh. Of them all, only Doroh was spoken by a great number of people, perhaps half a million, and only Doroh and Feråjin (or rather, descendents of them) survived into the second millennium YP.
This sounds as if you mean to develop Doroh someday ;)

And concerning the names, I take it they're all cognate (or in the case of Doroh and Boesin, Fáralo loans from native cognates). If so, where do the initial /d/ in Doroh and /k/ in Kietek and Ka'alikora come from, seeing that initial *f goes unchanged in both Faraghin and Feråjin?

Edit: Well, these initial /k/ look like they derive from a *ke- prefix of some sort, with original *f > *h > 0 / V_V in Kietek and *f > *h > ʔ / V_V in Ka'alikora.

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Post by Radius Solis »

The names are not intended to be cognate. Faraghin/jin are cognate with each other, but the rest was made-up with no interconnection intended. The -in of Boesin is a Faralo suffix, not necessarily native to Boesin, but it still might be because Faralo got it from Faraghin in the first place. Few natural langauges have names that are cognate with the names of even closely related languages. The fact that so many of Adata's descendents do is due to unrealistic conlanging practices. :)

Doroh is another attempt at realism - that there are surely other important languages in the family besides Faraghin/jin. I have no particular interest in developing any of the others... anyone who wants is welcome to, if they care to do so, but my goal here is to provide a consistent historical background for Faraghin/jin. Anyone who wishes to help with this is welcome to make additions or edits to the aforelinked frathwiki page!

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Post by Corumayas »

Nice work. But I just noticed something!
On [url=http://www.almeopedia.com/index.php/Aiwa_valley]Almeopedia[/url], Radius wrote:4. Faraghin and Fer?jin. Two related, but distinct, contentious peoples that might have been able to resist
Ndak invasions had they not fought against each other as much as against the Ndak. Their languages were
related to that of the Ngauro, but much more distantly than Miu or Meshi. Among the Ndak they had a
reputation for stupidity, heavy drinking, and being content to wear rough animal skins... or nothing at all.
Despite this they had begun to settle down and were even producing the occasional scribe and poet.
Now the Ngauro civilization began some 2000 years before Ndak Ta. So apparently, more than a thousand years before Proto-Isthmus, there should be a Proto-Isthmus-Ngauro.... :o Is anything known about Ngauro?
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Post by Grath »

This sounds cool. Can I join in?

I won't be able to have a turn between December 20th and 28th.

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Post by Zhen Lin »

Don't worry about dates. Just make something!
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Post by Makerowner »

I'd like to join in. Which language should I start with?

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Post by Grath »

Ok... I guess this project has evolved a bit since the first page. I'll have to read the whole thing at some point when it's not 2:22 AM.

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Post by Zhen Lin »

You don't really need to, unless you want to be absolutely certain where your contribution lies in the sociopolitical-historical setting. In that case you'd be best off working on late descendants, rather than early. Alternatively, if you are willing to trawl through the last few pages, there are a few suggestions for language gaps which need to be filled.
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Post by Radius Solis »

For those interested in particfipating:
on a previous page I wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Speaking of which, is there anywhere a sort of ThisProjectForIdiots that could give an overview of geography and history?
Well, not as such, but I can approximate such an overview by linking to the following two things:

1. Almeopedia. On the bottom of the main page there's links to some of the stuff for this conworld, all of it dating from the original "Historical Telephone" game. There is not so much material there you should find it very intimidating - not even a dozen total pages, I think, and half of that is the Ndak Ta grammar. The rest of the Almeopedia material provides a decent summary of the main results of the Historical Telephone conworlding/langing.

2. The Edastean Family Tree.
You can pretty safely ignore the bulk of this thread, we've only really started talking about history and conworlding over the last week or two (last three-four pages). Everything else is people talking about taking turns that were a year ago now. The only thing in the first dozen pages that has any current relevence is the aforelinked family tree post, which provides an excellent list, with links, for all the conlangs produced thus far between both games.


For the "rules"... none of the stuff on the first page really applies anymore. Everyone is welcome participate whenever and however they like.

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Post by Radius Solis »

Corumayas wrote:Nice work. But I just noticed something!

Now the Ngauro civilization began some 2000 years before Ndak Ta. So apparently, more than a thousand years before Proto-Isthmus, there should be a Proto-Isthmus-Ngauro.... :o Is anything known about Ngauro?
Err, crap. I'd forgotten all about that. :evil:

Well, what does it matter anyway... we can leave the question of connection to Ngauro open for the time being.

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Post by krinnen »

Hmmm. I'm kinda back. :)

Some months ago I was waiting for kozado to be done, and I see is still work in progress.

What should I do? what are those gaps which need to be filled?
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Post by Zhen Lin »

Mostly non-Adāta languages to go into the places which do not get absorbed into the empire.

Meanwhile, I present the revised Ayāsthi. And this time, it has a lexicon!
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Post by Legion »

krinnen wrote:Hmmm. I'm kinda back. :)

Some months ago I was waiting for kozado to be done, and I see is still work in progress.

What should I do? what are those gaps which need to be filled?
Kozado is a bit more complete by now. All it really need is further expansion of the lexicon, which I hope will come soon.

However ! Both you and Koka Kode are willing to derive a daughter from it. That means somehow you should find an historical justification for a drastic augmentation of the number of speakers (because it seems unlikely that 500 speakers give birth to two distinct daughterlangs!)


Edit : Also, in the light of the revision of Ayasthi, I'm announcing that will revise Agaf... when I could...

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Post by Radius Solis »

Legion wrote:However ! Both you and Koka Kode are willing to derive a daughter from it. That means somehow you should find an historical justification for a drastic augmentation of the number of speakers (because it seems unlikely that 500 speakers give birth to two distinct daughterlangs!)
I have a suggestion or two about this, and krinnen/kode can use either, both, or none, at their discretion.

Kozado, as described, is clearly a dying language - what else do you call it when only 500 people still speak it in two villages in the middle of a kingdom highly dominated by another tongue? So we need a way to get these people not only out of the kingdom, but able to dominate a new area.

Suggestion 1 is to have one of the final blows to Kozado be the departure of at least half its remaining speakers to another land. Perhaps the Kozado speakers were persecuted for linguistic or even religious reasons; or perhaps they were simply economically disadvantaged, either way to the point they packed up and headed for the hills en masse. The 500 are the remnant population still within Khalanese territory after this departure.

Suggestion 2 is to have these departing speakers head for the mountains - doesn't matter which. But only in a mountainous area (which Khalanu is not) can they get the geographical separation necessary for such a small number of people to regrow their language into something viable. That or islands, but this is in the middle of the continent. Then the speakers can diverge into two dialects once they get into the mountains, again due to geographical separation.

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Post by Radius Solis »

Zhen Lin wrote:Mostly non-Adāta languages to go into the places which do not get absorbed into the empire.

Meanwhile, I present the revised Ayāsthi. And this time, it has a lexicon!
The grammar looks good. Very solid. Honestly I was impressed by the original Ayasth, and this only improves it!

My main issue with the lexicon is the unfriendly format. It's a text file where every line goes like this:

Code: Select all

"ádia","adwa ","NT","ádia",,"A0J0E2E4","àjeıə","àjeı-",,,,"adj.",,"dark ",
and this is rather a difficult way for anyone to browse it. Although it's probably fine for searching purposes.

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Post by Legion »

Radius Solis wrote:
Legion wrote:However ! Both you and Koka Kode are willing to derive a daughter from it. That means somehow you should find an historical justification for a drastic augmentation of the number of speakers (because it seems unlikely that 500 speakers give birth to two distinct daughterlangs!)
I have a suggestion or two about this, and krinnen/kode can use either, both, or none, at their discretion.

Kozado, as described, is clearly a dying language - what else do you call it when only 500 people still speak it in two villages in the middle of a kingdom highly dominated by another tongue? So we need a way to get these people not only out of the kingdom, but able to dominate a new area.

Suggestion 1 is to have one of the final blows to Kozado be the departure of at least half its remaining speakers to another land. Perhaps the Kozado speakers were persecuted for linguistic or even religious reasons; or perhaps they were simply economically disadvantaged, either way to the point they packed up and headed for the hills en masse. The 500 are the remnant population still within Khalanese territory after this departure.

Suggestion 2 is to have these departing speakers head for the mountains - doesn't matter which. But only in a mountainous area (which Khalanu is not) can they get the geographical separation necessary for such a small number of people to regrow their language into something viable. That or islands, but this is in the middle of the continent. Then the speakers can diverge into two dialects once they get into the mountains, again due to geographical separation.

Personally I like it much! Now to see what Krinnen and Kode can do with this...

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Post by Salmoneus »

One route to expansion would be if the small population were diasporated, and found some social niche in the wider population as an outsider group. Eg Jews, Gypsies, Hausa etc.
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Post by Zhen Lin »

Radius Solis wrote:My main issue with the lexicon is the unfriendly format. It's a text file where every line goes like this:

Code: Select all

"ádia","adwa ","NT","ádia",,"A0J0E2E4","àjeıə","àjeı-",,,,"adj.",,"dark ",
and this is rather a difficult way for anyone to browse it. Although it's probably fine for searching purposes.
It's meant to be imported into Excel or similar. I could make a HTML table of it, I guess. Or make some hideous Javascript monstrosity to load and parse it...
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Post by Radius Solis »

Zhen Lin wrote:
Radius Solis wrote:My main issue with the lexicon is the unfriendly format. It's a text file where every line goes like this:

Code: Select all

"ádia","adwa ","NT","ádia",,"A0J0E2E4","àjeıə","àjeı-",,,,"adj.",,"dark ",
and this is rather a difficult way for anyone to browse it. Although it's probably fine for searching purposes.
It's meant to be imported into Excel or similar. I could make a HTML table of it, I guess. Or make some hideous Javascript monstrosity to load and parse it...
Well, I could use find/replace to HTMLify it without *too* much trouble, yeah. Comparatively, I mean; it wouldn't be one of those times I spent four days banging my head against the wall and my fingers against the keyboard trying to manually paste in a </td><td> for every tab (two thousand paste-ins of </td class="blah"><td> for Pencek's lexicon was enough for me for any given year). If I can do it tomorrow without too much trouble, I will, and (with your permission) post online... and if not, I'll say so.

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Post by Zhen Lin »

No need, I have done so already.
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