Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Salmoneus
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Post by Salmoneus »

Zhen Lin wrote:Yes, I suppose it's plausible that linguistic diversity would be greater in the past provided there is a sufficiently spread out population. Hmmm. But then almost all of these language families on this nameless continent seem to survive? I guess more pruning would occur.
That's my worry, yes.

However, there would probably have been a family to the west of the Bwimbai that may or may not still exist. Maybe the the south-east, too between Eige and Peninsular.

And "Peninsular" need not have existed that long ago, need it?
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Post by Cedh »

Dewrad wrote:Cedh- if it's not too much trouble, would a map of the "whole world" as we know it be possible? One including the Western and Isles spheres as well?
I've vectorized the whole map, so that's definitely possible. Only I haven't yet cleaned up the elevation colour contours in the areas outside the Edastean sphere (if you look closely you can spot errors in the northern coastline in a few places). And I haven't yet added in all the rivers. Another issue is file size: my computer is very slow already when working with the current map, especially when exporting it to Photoshop. But I'll have a go at a physical map of the whole continent sometime soon, and maybe I can find a way to make it accessible in vector format (svg?) so whoever wants can use it to make their own regional map. I won't have access to my graphics tablet though for a week...

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Post by Zhen Lin »

Salmoneus wrote:And "Peninsular" need not have existed that long ago, need it?
I don't think 4000 years of time depth is needed, however would it not be odd to have an isolate proto-language that is much younger than the rest on the continent...?
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Post by Salmoneus »

Not at all. "Isolate" just means "we can't connect it to any living (or recently dead, ie recorded) language". "Proto-language" just means "the speakers invaded lots of places". For instance, 'peninsular' could be one of a dozen languages on the peninsular. Then, its speakers expand dramatically (er.. not individually, that is, but the group). The other, possibly related, langauges either die out or evolve into their own language families.
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Post by kodé »

Dewrad wrote:Cedh, I only just noticed your maps. They're damn cool (they also show the need for some Hitatc loanwords in Adata and Gezoro- someone hurry up and make that language!).

The rumours about me working on Proto-Western are true. The basics of the language are pretty much finalised, and once I've come up with a culture sketch the language will be open for people to derive daughters from it should they wish to.

One thing I'm not going to do is derive Gezoro and Tjakori. Rather, I'm going to present that as a challenge to anyone brave enough to take it up. All that exists of Gezoro is a phoneme inventory and a list of about 20 or so words which were borrowed into Adata. There are several ways to arrive at the latter from Proto-Western that I've thought of, and I'm sure people can come up with other ways. So the challenge is to "join the dots" as it were. If anyone's interested in this challenge, contact me. Not only do you get the fun of doing it, you also get Gezoro and Tjakori as your personal fiefdoms!
Hmm... the languages the I've worked on so far are either too far into the future (Ko:t) or way too far into the future (?Aghiyi) to allow for a free hand in conworlding (even for Ko:t, so much will have to wait on everyone fleshing things out all the way up to the late second millenium). If no one else has claimed it, then I will request the challenge of deriving Gezoro (and Tjakori, too?) and then working on conhistory for those speakers. The prehistory of the Rathedan has obviously some importance; and, IIRC, we have next to nothing even sketched out for the Tjakori valley. Perhaps I can even fit the migrating Ko:t speakers into there...


If it's been claimed, I could work on the Hitatc languages and the history of the upper Milir region before it gets conquered by Athale.



Also, should something be done to collate all the relevant information on the thread and present it in a more organized fashion? At least, it'd be nice if we had a comprehensive list of who is concentrating on what people/language/region at what time. [/whining]
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Post by Radius Solis »

kodé wrote:Also, should something be done to collate all the relevant information on the thread and present it in a more organized fashion? At least, it'd be nice if we had a comprehensive list of who is concentrating on what people/language/region at what time. [/whining]
It sure as hell would. Neek has offered us the KneeQuickie for our use. But then to somebody falls the thankless task of transferring the data of this thread.

Another thing that would be a good idea is to have a comprehensive list, updatable by everyone, of who has fiefdom over what regions and during what timeframes, as you suggest. For instance I have fiefdom over Kasca from -2000 to +130, but Zompist has fiefdom over it from there up to +1600 or whenever his language there will be set.

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Post by Dewrad »

kodé wrote:If no one else has claimed it, then I will request the challenge of deriving Gezoro (and Tjakori, too?) and then working on conhistory for those speakers.
It's all yours. The only conditions attached to the challenge are:

a) you take Gezoro *and* Tjakori (it's not impossible that Tjakori is actually descended *from* Gezoro- i.e. those speakers who were never Edakised. If you want to do this, feel free to offer up Tjakori for someone else to derive)

b) that the phoneme inventory of Gezoro you end up with is /p t k ph th kh b d g s ts x z w j n m N l r a a: e e: i i: o o: u u:/

c) that you include the current Gezoro words/morphemes from the Adata lexicon (or Gezoro words which can give the Adata reflexes by means of established regular soundchanges.

d) that you stay within established perameters for Gezoro culture. i.e. don't make them matriarchal, neolithic, hunting-gathering monotheists when it's already known that they were iron-using, patriarchal, horse-riding polytheists.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Post by Zhen Lin »

Well, before we put things on KneeQuickie, it would help if we had a better name for the world than Ranradius and a name for the hitherto unnamed continents...

On another topic, a vision of how the Peninsular family might look like, tracing the evolution of *tiçar-xa (the Sun) and *mrisaŋfa (endonym for the Peninsula)...

Image

Of course, I don't think I really can flesh out 5 daughters, let alone their attested predecessors... Interestingly, there are elements of inter-branch interactions/sprachbund effects - it's not really visible with the examples above, but here are some other cognate pairs: /wa4e/ ~ /weje/, /na4e/ ~ /naje/, /mana/ ~ /mane/. Similarly with the third and fourth branches: /kAsen/ ~ /kAs\E~/, /ptætæ/ ~ /ftata/, /m{rnEhha/ ~ /maRn_jaSa/; compare the first pair /kaze/ ~ /gaZi/, /tete/ ~ /pado/, /mana/ ~ /mane/.
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Post by Salmoneus »

I think we can leave the other continents alone for now, until we get onto them.


I'm currently having a go at sketching climate areas for the continent.

I'm not entirely sure the continent is scientifically sound, though - the mountains seem to be more Tolkien than tectonics. That's just at a casual glance, though.
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Post by Radius Solis »

About tectonics: entirely correct, Sal. That was just another of the things that wasn't meant to hold up to close scrutiny at the time it was done. The original map I drew had at least a bare nod in the direction of realism if not much more, but even that was obscured by later revisions.

Re: planet names, we do have one... just it doesn't look very pretty and it's inconvenient to type or copypaste. I was thinking maybe we could use the Adata cognate? The NT word for "world" was made up after the original game was over and I regret not adding it to the lexicon page, because I no longer have any record of it; the Faralo reflex is all we have to go by. Unfortunately I can't get the Faralo sound changes to display properly due to encoding issues, for the time being. From what I can gather from them and looking at correspondences, the NT etymon could be any of *ka"kaina or *ka"trana or *ka"tsana but I can't be sure. Maybe someone who can read the SC file could help?

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Post by Zhen Lin »

Ah, you mean Kečǽnə? Perhaps we can use an Anglicised form as the name. Kechǽna, Kechæna, Kechaena, Kechana...

Regarding the /č/ though, it seems to derive from /tr/ and /k/ (before front vowels). But the initial /ke/ is problematic since that should also have palatalised. Hrm.

For future reference, the Fáralo sound changes are:

Code: Select all

V=aeiouàèìòùâêîä&@
W=aeiouàèìòùyä&w
C=ptkbdgscmnNrlwyvfzçj~ßh
P=ptks
B=bdgz
S=ptkbdgc
M=nmN
F=ieìèä&
K=uoùò
L=lr
U=aeiouä
A=àèìòù&
T=áéíóúå
* Radius's rules
n/~n/V_
m/~m/V_
âi/ai~/_
âu/au~/_
â/a~/_
ê/e~/_
î/i~/_
ia/iya/_
s/z/_B
* spelling rules
ng/N/_
ts/c/_
* make stress explicit 
U/A/_C(C)(C)U
U/A/#C(C)_(V)(C)(C)#
U/A/#_(C)(C)#
A/U/AC(C)(C)_
aù/àu/_
aì/ài/_
a/ä/_(V)~
à/&/_(V)~
* now the fun begins
M//~_C
b//V_V
d//V_V
g//V_V
g/j/_F
s//_P
k/ç/_F
P/B/V_V
u/w/V_
i/y/V_
l/w/_M
s/y/_M
w/y/_C(C)(C)F
y/w/_C(C)(C)K
w/g/W_W
w/g/L_W
y/ß/W_W
* eliminate syllabic nasals
m/e~/#_S
n/e~/#_S
N/e~/#_S
m/e~/S_#
n/e~/S_#
N/e~/S_#
* weaken unaccented finals
*o/u/VC(C)(C)_#
*ay/a/VC(C)(C)_#
*aw/o/VC(C)_#
o/u/_
aw/o/_
äy/ä/_
äw/o/_
i//VC(C)_#
a/@/VC(C)_#
ay/a/_
* nasalization lost if unaccented
~//U_
s/h/#_
c/ß/_U
c/s/_A
c/ß/_#
y//&_
*
kw/p/_
gw/b/_
Nw/m/_
bw/b/_U
bw/bo/_
pw/p/_U
pw/po/_
r/o/_S
r/o/_M
l/r/_d
tr/ç/_
br/pß/_
aN/oN/_#
k/h/U_#
g/h/U_#
p/f/U_#
ày/é/_
àw/ó/_
è~/é/_
ò~/ó/_
~/@/ù_
~/@/ì_
~//&(W)_
ä/a/_#
&/e/_w
* spelling rules
A/U/#C_
N/ñ/_
é/èi/_
ó/òu/_
A/U/#(C)_
A/T/_
ä/â/_
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Post by Radius Solis »

The /ke/ is problematic, yeah... according to those changes, that shouldn't occur, or not for single morphemes. I wonder if it might have been something like *ntsana or *Nkaina instead, becoming ečǽnə with the later addition of a k- plural for mass nouns. That would explain the stress location as well; any NT word like *katrana should have had initial stress that stayed put in Faralo (unless I marked it as an irregular-stress word, which is very possible).

If we were to posit *ntsana, we'd get an Adata reflex of Asana, I believe. Or if *Nkaina, then Ake:na. I find both more aesthetically pleasant than Kečǽnə, which word has always given me a faint "eww" reaction (for orthographical reasons).

Also, thank you muchly for translating the sound changes into human-readable characters! :D

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Post by Zhen Lin »

While Asana is highly euphonious, it seems there is no rule turning /c/ ([ts]) to /č/ in Faralo, just /s/ and /ß/ (presumably [S]?). If we posit *etra(i)na instead, we should get Adāta ērēna or ērana, both of which also sound good. The problem, though, would be irregular placement of Fáralo stress, and **ntra(i)na is not a possible root. So we may have to resort to *ŋka(i)na yielding akēna or akana.
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Post by zompist »

Unfortunately I don't recall the etymology of Kečǽnə. But the form of the word does confirm Radius's logic: the k- is the plural, and the unstressed initial -e- must come from an initial nasal in NT.

Still working on what the NT would be, gotta go to lunch.

By the way, I am going through that humongous list of new NT terms, making Fáralo reflexes. I'll probably add to the Faraghin list as well.

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Post by Salmoneus »

Here's my impression of what the climate and vegetation would be like on the continent. It's quit an odd shape compared to real-life examples, so I've used a deductive method, which may give inductively odd results in some places:



Image

http://img232.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... atezt2.png


The areas are:

A: Northern Forests. Some deciduous, some evergreen, some mixed. Generally moist throughout the year, with heavy rain at least part of the time.

B: Eastern Forests. Drier and colder than the Northern Forests - probably mostly evergreen with some deciduous, as opposed to the opposite mix in the Northern Forests.

C: Grasslands. Dry summers, damp winters, but not wet enough to have a proper mediterranean climate. Nonetheless, it's a difference of quantity, not quality, and the grasslands will be broken up by shrubs and woodlands.

D: Mediterranean. Dry summers, wet winters. Patchwork of grasslands, shrublands and woodlands. Probably substantial evergreen forests by the coast (it is quite wet in the winter there), fading gradually into grasslands.

E: Dry Forests. Dry winters, damp summers - the result is deciduous woodlands, but probably fairly stunted and with plenty of drier grasslands and shrublands spotted around.

F: Steppe. Woodland copses and shrubs not unknown in wet areas, but mostly short, sparse grasslands. Possibly desert areas, too.

G: Mountain Woodlands. Similar climate to C, but colder mountain temperatures promote the domination of an open evergreen woodland, with deciduous and shrubby, even grassy, patches.

H: Desert, or in wet areas very dry scrublands.





Contestations or suggestions welcome. I've assumed an axial tilt of around 15 percent, for simplicity's sake, and I'm also thinking of it as a bit warmer than earth.
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Post by Dewrad »

As Zhen Lin is clearly thinking about writing in another thread, I've had a thought.

In Eurasia, writing was only invented independently something like twice or so, all other scripts derive from one of these two, either directly or in concept. Rather than us all inventing scripts willy-nilly, I suggest that we follow the same idea and add a "script relay" to the language side of things.

I believe that we have already established that the first people to engage in writing in the Edak sphere were the Ngauro. Let's say that the concept (but not the forms) was transferred to the Peninsular people (I envision some early maritime trading going on along the coast there). So we have two "centres" for scripts to develop. All we need is Ngauro to be developed (hint :P) so we can get on and make some logograms for it!

(As a result of the above, I suggest we completely forget about the script I cam up with for Adata, as it was shit. The concept can stay- borrowing from the Tjakori- but the actual script can be binned.)
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Post by zompist »

I ran the possibilities through the Fáralo sound changes, and the only one that comes out right is *ngkana. (Since it's plural in Fáralo, the precise NT expression would be *luk-ngkana.)

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Post by Radius Solis »

So it looks like Adata's reflex is Akana, or possibly A:kana if we use the plural; I'm not sure if it would be correct to. This can have co-equal status with Kechaen@ for the world name, unless anyone objects. (The Naidda reflex, including article, is l-Kana.)

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Post by Legion »

Dewrad wrote:As Zhen Lin is clearly thinking about writing in another thread, I've had a thought.

In Eurasia, writing was only invented independently something like twice or so, all other scripts derive from one of these two, either directly or in concept. Rather than us all inventing scripts willy-nilly, I suggest that we follow the same idea and add a "script relay" to the language side of things.
*nods* this is a good idea. Also, conscript means con-orthography, so yay for that.

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Post by Zhen Lin »

Actually, I did attempt a conscript relay before, but it didn't survive too long. Anyway, yes, indeed I am thinking about writing. Following attested human history, we should probably begin with some kind of graphic proto-writing and develop a logographic/acrophonic syllabary system. Specific details will depend on the level of technology, however.

Also, I wonder if I should introduce a root *kaxna into proto-Peninsular and claim convergent evolution? Possible reflexes: /gano/, /kane/, /kAnæ/, /kana/, /kana/. (Hmm, I just realised none of the daughters seem to have phonemic vowel length. Hmm.)
Dewrad wrote:In Eurasia, writing was only invented independently something like twice or so, all other scripts derive from one of these two, either directly or in concept. Rather than us all inventing scripts willy-nilly, I suggest that we follow the same idea and add a "script relay" to the language side of things.
Actually, writing seems to have developed independently more than twice in Eurasia-Africa - at least three times if count all the unrelated cuneiform as one, plus the massive Egyptian/Phoenician family (at its most inclusivist, that includes everything from Devanāgarī to Han'gŭl) and of course the Sinitic/Sinoform family.
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Post by Legion »

Zhen Lin wrote: Actually, writing seems to have developed independently more than twice in Eurasia-Africa - at least three times if count all the unrelated cuneiform as one, plus the massive Egyptian/Phoenician family (at its most inclusivist, that includes everything from Devanāgarī to Han'gŭl) and of course the Sinitic/Sinoform family.
In fact, Hangul is an appriori script, it doesn't derive from any previous script (and I suspect the same can be said of Armenian and Georgian alphabets - while they do use the levantine order, the shapes seems to be just made up from scratch). And of course there are also linear A and B, and a bunch of others which simply didn't leave any descendant.

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Post by Dewrad »

However, they do derive *conceptually* from other scripts. Someone saw writing in action and made up something similar. The same can probably said of hieroglyphs, which first turned up suspiciously soon after cuneiform and worked in the same way. Which leaves the early Sinitic script and Mesopotamian Cuneiform the only wholly a priori writing systems in Eurasia. Which I said already.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Post by Zhen Lin »

Legion wrote:In fact, Hangul is an appriori script, it doesn't derive from any previous script
That's just what the modern Koreans say. Not even the purported inventor, King Sejong, says that. And there are other theories.
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Post by Salmoneus »

No comments on the climate map? At all?
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Post by Radius Solis »

Salmoneus wrote:Here's my impression of what the climate and vegetation would be like on the continent. It's quit an odd shape compared to real-life examples, so I've used a deductive method, which may give inductively odd results in some places
It is generally good. But, there are some specific areas depicted differently than we have already assumed in prior descriptions.

- the delta region of Kasca is forested; this forest should connect to the forest below it.

- Rathedan is forested only in river valleys, and only lightly. It's dry in summer, and wetter in winter.

- The upper Eige valley, east of Rathedan's longitud, is semi-arid steppe. So is the strip immediately east of the mountains just south of Rathedan - the Hitatc lands. All of these areas are in a major rainshadow.

- The big eastern islands should probably be wetter than that... I cannot think of any large mid-latitude islands on Earth that aren't naturally forested.

- I also think the Xsali lands should be much wetter than that, especially in summer and within a few hundred miles of the coast. A decent analog here should be the American South: a large pool of very warm water lies immediately below, which causes a lot of humidity to spread upwards into those regions in the summer. This makes for humid days and very frequent showers and thunderstorms in summer, and a relatively dry winter. The presence of the Gulf of Mexico is the main reason the American South isn't semi-arid or even desert, and I don't see any reason the same wouldn't apply here. The upper Tjakori river valley, say everything north of the big lake, should probably remain steppe, though.
Last edited by Radius Solis on Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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