Romanization challenge thread

[Haplogy]

Ḥanyheliubl:

/p b t d ʈ (ɖ) c ɟ k ʔ/ <p b td d t dt ty gy k q>
/f v s z ʂ ʐ (x) ʁ h/ <f v sz z s zs ch r ḥ>
/m m̥ n n̥ ɲ ɲ̥ ŋ ŋ̥/ <m mh n nh ny nyh ng ngh>
/l l̥ r/ <l lh rh>
/a aː e eː ɤ ɤː o oː/ <a á e é ë e̋ o ó>
/i iː ɯ ɯː u uː/ <i í ï ı̋ u ú>
/ai au iu/ <ai au iu>
Stress is only indicated when not initial, and then it's done so by doubling the following consonant, or adding <h> after the vowel if there is none.

Szautyett mënhı̋ szerdrók ḥanhí. Tdorz mnghï ntïl fëhror quzngih, sziz mëngh lodrók rlo, ta núdtzsu quzsezerók lo. Zsárduk zoloré. Sërzsárnezs.
/sau̯cét mɤŋ̥ɯ: seʁdʁo:k han̥i:. toʁz m̩ŋ̥ɯ n̩ʈɯl fɤhʁoʁ ʔuzŋí, siz mɤŋ̥ lodʁo:k ʁlo, ʈa nu:ɖʐu ʔuʐeʐʁo:k lo. ʐa:ʁduk zoloʁe:. ʂɤʁʐa:ʁneʐ./


Clusivitese:

/m n̪ n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ <m nh n nq gj g>
/p t̪ t ʈ c k/ <p th t tq kj k>
/r̪̊ r̪ r̢̊ r̢/ <xh ddh x dd>
/s z/ <s z>
/ɾ ɽ/ <d dq>
/l ɻ j w/ <l r j w>
/i u e o a/ <i u e o a>
/i˞ u˞ e˞ o˞ a˞/ <ir ur er or ar>
/iˁ uˁ eˁ oˁ aˁ/ <ị ụ ẹ ọ ạ>

[R.Rusanov]

This is a romlang called Gaʎɒɲeʒ that I can't figure out a good orthography for.

Code: Select all

p t k 
b d g
s ʃ h
z ʒ
m n (ŋ) ɲ
l ʎ r
j w

Code: Select all

u i
o e
a ɒ

Sample:
Un lob, ku akotrat un aɲ abolad es so kab, deʒet ɲe kaber es, ok deʒilar kaʎ akuz jutesegar a aɲ al dilet ko al lob at madogar es. Aʃet el aret hrod al aɲ atel: "Dɒmeɲ, pas an to gramed me jesat." "ʃiʒet," babat al aɲ, "e adaz ɲe si nad." Jan al lob aret, "to aʎemadar en kab mo." "ɲet, dɒmeɲ, e erba ɲe at ez." Era al lob aret, "to ɒgat de poz mo." "ɲet," akramat al aɲ, "e ɒga de jan ɲe at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et aʎemed et bedora par me." De od al lob es kabat et madogat, et digat, "Nok! E ɲe manol hora praz, deg to apega tod mi dana."
Atel al telan deʒirat un akuz par so teraɲeda.

Any ideas?

[8Deer]

Something I've been struggling with. Here's the orthography I've been using:

Zhilo

Consonants
Clicks: /ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <ǀ ǀh nǀ ! !h n! ǁ ǁh nǁ ǂ ǂh nǂ>
Nasals: /m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
Stops: /p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph t th k kh q qh '>
Affricates: /ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
Fricatives: /f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s hl sh x h>
Approximants: /r j/ <r y>

Vowels
Monophthongs: /i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o w u>
Diphthongs: /ɛi œy/ <ei öü>

In a related language with only three clicks, I use <v c q> for /ʘ ǀ !/, but that doesn't really work here...

As for phonotactics, I'm not really sure yet, but probably something basic like (C)V(C)(C).

[sangi39]

Galionieiz /gaʎɒɲeʒ/

/p t k b d g/ <p t c b d g>
/s ʃ z ʒ h/ <s si~is* z zi~iz* h>
/m n (ŋ) ɲ/ <m n (ng) ni~in*>
/l ʎ r/ <l li~il* r>
/j w/ <y v>
/u i/ <u i~í~ì~î>
/o e/ <o e>
/a ɒ/ <a ò>

*<si zi ni li> are used before vowels (other than /i/)
<is zi in il> are used between a vowel vowels (other than /i/) and a consonant or word-finally
<sí zí ní lí> represent /ʃi ʒi ɲi ʎi/, thus <í> indicates a preceding “palatal”.
<ìs ìz ìn ìl> represent /iʃ iʒ iɲ iʎ/, thus <ì> indicates a following “palatal” (only used word-finally)
<î> indicates a following and preceding “palatal” (only used word-finally)



/un lob, ku akotrat un aɲ abolad es so kab, deʒet ɲe kaber es, ok deʒilar kaʎ akuz jutesegar a aɲ al dilet ko al lob at madogar es. aʃet el aret hrod al aɲ atel: "dɒmeɲ, pas an to gramed me jesat." "ʃiʒet," babat al aɲ, "e adaz ɲe si nad." jan al lob aret, "to aʎemadar en kab mo." "ɲet, dɒmeɲ, e erba ɲe at ez." era al lob aret, "to ɒgat de poz mo." "ɲet," akramat al aɲ, "e ɒga de jan ɲe at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et aʎemed et bedora par me." de od al lob es kabat et madogat, et digat, "nok! e ɲe manol hora praz, deg to apega tod mi dana."
atel al telan deʒirat un akuz par so teraɲeda./

Un lob, cu acotrat un ain abolad es so cab, deziet nie caber es, oc dezílar cail acuz yutesegar a ain al dilet co al lob at madogar es. Asiet el aret hrod al ain atel: "Dòmein, pas an to gramed me yesat." "Síziet," babat al ain, "e adaz nie si nad." Yan al lob aret, "to aliemadar en cab mo." "Niet, dòmein, e erba nie at ez." Era al lob aret, "to ògat de poz mo." "Niet," acramat al ain, "e òga de yan nie at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et aliemed et bedora par me." De od al lob es cabat et madogat, et digat, "Noc! E nie manol hora praz, deg to apega tod mi dana."
Atel al telan dezírat un acuz par so teranieda.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Zhilo

Consonants
Clicks: /ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <d! t! n! g! k! ng! l! tl! nl! x! c! nx!>
Nasals: /m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
Stops: /p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <b p d t g k ğ q '>
Affricates: /ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
Fricatives: /f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x j h>
Approximants: /r j/ <r y>

Vowels
Monophthongs: /i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o ï u>
Diphthongs: /ɛi œy/ <ai au>

[8Deer]

Zhilo

Consonants
Clicks: /ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <d! t! n! g! k! ng! l! tl! nl! x! c! nx!>
Nasals: /m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
Stops: /p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <b p d t g k ğ q '>
Affricates: /ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
Fricatives: /f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x j h>
Approximants: /r j/ <r y>

Vowels
Monophthongs: /i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o ï u>
Diphthongs: /ɛi œy/ <ai au>

I like that for the consonants, thanks. Might do something different with the vowels yet.

[sangi39]

Zhilo

Consonants
Clicks: /ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <d! t! n! g! k! ng! l! tl! nl! x! c! nx!>
Nasals: /m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
Stops: /p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <b p d t g k ğ q '>
Affricates: /ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
Fricatives: /f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x j h>
Approximants: /r j/ <r y>

Vowels
Monophthongs: /i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o ï u>
Diphthongs: /ɛi œy/ <ai au>

I like that for the consonants, thanks. Might do something different with the vowels yet.

I think it was Nort who said that the Kirshenbaum click transcription was underused, and here, at least in a modified way, it just seemed to work. Glad I could help

[Nortaneous]

A lot depends on etymology, so there's a lot of guesswork that maybe isn't accurate, but...

/p t k b d g/ <p t c/qu b d g/gu>
/s ʃ h z ʒ/ <* * h s *>
/m n (ŋ) ɲ/ <m n (n) ñ>
/l ʎ r/ <l ll r>
/j w/ <y u>
/a ɒ e o i u/ <a å e o i u>
* /s/ is written <st> in /es/, <s> word-initially, <ss> word-finally, and <ç> elsewhere. /ʃ/ is written <c> before /i e/ and <x> elsewhere. /ʒ/ is written <g> before /i e/ and <j> elsewhere.

Un lob, cu acotrat un añ abolad est so cab, deget ñe kaber est, oc degilar call acus yuteçegar a añ al dilet co al lob at madogar est. Acet el aret hrod al añ atel: "Dåmeñ, pass an to gramed me yeçat." "Ciget," babat al añ, "e adas ñe si nad." Yan al lob aret, "to allemadar en cab mo." "Ñet, dåmeñ, e erba ñe at es." Era al lob aret, "to ågat de pos mo." "Ñet," acramat al añ, "e åga de yan ñe at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et allemed et bedora par me." De od al lob es cabat et madogat, et digat, "Noc! E ñe manol hora pras, deg to apega tod mi dana."
Atel al telan degirat un acus par so terañeda.

I think I like it better always having <j> for /ʒ/, but then the c/qu thing doesn't make much sense.

[R.Rusanov]

That's a really cool orthography! I like <å> for [ɒ], though I was worried that it's not found in Romance generally...

If you want to see the sound changes and stuff, I made it for Mr. Zompist's SCA2, you can see the transformations here:

Code: Select all

Y=ăěĭŏŭ
W=aeiou
L=āēīōū
V=āēīōūaeiouåɛɔə
H=ptkᴋᴛbdᴅgɢszfmnrljwh
G=kgslnhw
Dž=ʧʤʃʎɲçj
I=ēīeij
U=ōūouw
C=ptᴛkᴋbdᴅgɢszfmnrljwhʧʤʃʎɲçjʦʣʒl

# orthography
Y/V/_
c/k/_
x/ks/_
qu/ᴋ/_
gu/ɢ/_V
y/i/_
ȳ/ī/_
au/å/_
v/w/_
z/ʣ/_
æ/ae/_
ae/e/_
œ/oe/_
oe/ē/_
h/'/V_V
h//_
# voiced cons
[bdgɢ]//_#
# sound changes
[mng]/ŋ/_[gk]
gn/ɲ/_
m/n/#HV_#
f/h/_
l//l_
r//r_
# semivowels
[ie]/j/_V
[ie]/j/V_
[uo]/w/_V
[uo]/w/V_
# labiodentals
tw/ᴛ/_
dw/ᴅ/_
# labiovelar shift
I/U/[ᴋɢᴛᴅ]_
a/å/_[ᴋɢᴛᴅ]
ᴋ/k/_
ɢ/g/_
ᴛ/t/_
ᴅ/d/_
# palatalization
G/Dž/_I
G/Dž/_I
j/ç/[pb]_
j//Dž_
tj/ʦ/_
dj/ʣ/_
# vulgar vowel shift
ā/a/_
e/ɛ/_
o/ɔ/_
[ēi]/e/_
[ōu]/o/_
ī/i/_
ū/u/_
# voiced stops drop
[bdg]/'/V_V
# loss of coda nasals
m/n/#CV_#
[nmŋɲ]//_C/_[jw]
[mŋɲ]//_#
[jw]//[nmŋɲ]_
# semivowels drop
'//_[jw]
[jw]/'/V_V
[jw]/'/V_
# stop before fricative
ʧ/ʃ/_
ʤ/ʒ/_
ʦ/s/_
ʣ/z/_
# vowel clusters collapse
a/å/_'[ouåɔ]
V//V'_
'//V_
V//V'_
'//V_
# initial clusters
/a/#_sC
# unvoiced clusters geminize
C/'/_[ptkʃs]
# voicing reappears
p/b/V_V
t/d/V_V
k/g/V_V
ʃ/ʒ/V_V
s/z/V_V
'//_
# ç
ç/s/_
# stress
/'/V_CV#
/'/V_CVC#
/'/V_CCV#
/'/V_CCVC#
/'/#CV_C#
/'/#CV_CC#
/'/#CCV_C#
/'/#CV_#
/'/#V_C#
/'/#V_#
# l and r
rj/ʎ/_
r/l/_V'
l/r/C_
ʎ/r/C_
l/ʎ/_[ei]
n/ɲ/_[ei]
# loss of -us, -um etc distinction
s//CV_#
s//CV'_#
s//C_#
/ə/C_C[ɔoɛe]#
/ə/C_C[ɔoɛe]'#
/ə/#_l[ɔoɛe]'#
/ə/#_r[ɔoɛe]'#
/ə/#_ʎ[ɔoɛe]'#
[oɔeɛ]//VC_#
[oɔeɛ]//V'C_#
[oɔeɛ]//VC_'#
[oɔeɛ]//V'C_'#
# vowel coalescences
ə/ɛ/_
ɛ'/e/_
ɔ'/o/_
ɛ/a/_
ɔ/å/_
å/ɒ/_
# vowel orthography
'//_
# ɒ/au/_
# # cons orthography
# k/c/_[åaou]
# k/qu/_[ei]
# k/c/_#
# g/gu/_[ei]
# ʃ/c/_[ei]
# ʒ/g/_[ei]
# ʎ/l/_[ei]
# ɲ/n/_[ei]
# ʃ/ci/_[åaou]
# ʒ/gi/_[åaou]
# ʎ/li/_[åaou]
# ɲ/ni/_[åaou]
# ʃ/ce/_#
# ʒ/ge/_#
# ʎ/le/_#
# ɲ/ne/_#
# j/y/_
# w/w/_

The story is Aesop's first fable, The Wolf and The Lamb, which you can find here: http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/21/pg21.txt

The very loose Latin translation I used ignoring cases except in certain fossilized cases is

lus lupus et lus agnus - in gallaeonēnsis

ūnus lupus , quī adcontrat ūnus agnus ambulantis ēx su'us campus , dēcidhabet nē capere ipsum , hunc dēsīderāre qualis excūsus jūstificāre ad agnus lus dīrectus quo lus lupus habet manducare ipsum . existe illus adīrighabet fronte lus agnus stilō : " domine , passus annus tu gravimente me vēxhabet . " sīsit , " bapahabet lus agnus , " ego addiem ne fuī nātus . " iam lus lupus adīrighabet , " tu alimentare in campus meus . " " nest , domine , ego herba ne habet ēsus . " era lus lupus adīrighabet , " tu aquhabet de puteus meus . " " nest , " exclamhabet lus agnus , " ego aqua de iam ne habet bibitus , prōillus lus lactus de mea māter est alimentus et bibitura prō mihi . " de unde lus lupus ipsus caphabet et manduchabet , et dīchabet , " nunc ! ego ne manvolō forās prandium , decum tu expinghabes tōti meī damna . "

stilō lus tyrannus dēsīderat ūnus excūsus prō su'us tyrranitās .

[Nortaneous]

...dammit, i guessed wrong. i'll do another one at some point, a bit busy atm

but there are some romance languages with å. walloon has it, but walloon has the worst orthography in europe -- there might be others though?

[Nortaneous]

Judging by those sound changes, it might be a better idea to use iC digraphs, although I don't like those as much. But that's assuming it has its own literary tradition, large enough for no orthographic influence... hmm. Where's the thing set? I'll assume Spain because that gives the best aesthetic results here, but.

/p t k b d g/ <p t c/qu b d g/gu>
/s ʃ h z ʒ/ <* * h z *>
/m n (ŋ) ɲ/ <m n (n) ni*>
/l ʎ r/ <l li* r>
/j w/ <y u>
/a ɒ e o i u/ <a å e o i u>

* /s ʃ/ are spelled <x> according to etymology, as are /s z/ <ti di>--but note that <t d> are always /t d/ before /i/.
* /ʃ ʒ/ are <ci gi> before a vowel and... can they even appear anywhere else?
* Palatalized consonants are spelled with their non-palatalized equivalents and <e> word-finally. Word-final /z/ is <se>.
* Silent <h> etymologically.

lus lupus et lus agnus - in gallaeonēnsis

Un lob, cu acotrat un ane abolad ex so cab, deget ne caber es, hoc degilar cale acuse yutesegar a ane al dilet co al lob hat madogar es. Axet el aret hrod al ane atel: "Dåmene, pas an to gramed me yexat. "Ciget," babat al ane, "e adase ne si nad." Yan al lob aret, "to alemadar en cab mo." Net, dåmene, e herba ne at ese." era al lob aret, "to ågat de pose mo." "Net," acramat al ane, "e åga de yan ne at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et alemed et bedora par me." De od al lob es cabat et madogat, et digat, "Noc! E ne manol hora prase, deg to apega tod mi dana." Atel al telan degirat un acuse par so teraneda.

And fuck it, we're already in that direction, so let's go completely French:

Unes lobes, cu acotrat unes agnes abolades ex sos cabes, deget ne cabere epse, hoc degilare cales acuses yutesegare a agnes als diletes co als lob hat madogare epse. Axete els aret hrode als agnes atel: "Dåmene, passes annes to gramed me yexat. "Ciget," babat als agnes, "e adase ne si nades." Yan als lobes aret, "to alemadare en cabes mos." Net, dåmene, e herba ne hat eses." era als lobes aret, "to ågat de poses mos." "Net," acramat als agnes, "e åga de yan ne hat bedes, proles als lates de ma madar et alemedes et bedora par me." De ode als lobes epses cabat et madogat, et digat, "Noc! E ne manole horas prase, degue to apega tode mi dana."

I still like the completely first one better though. Distinguishing between the palatals unambiguously despite their predictability seems like a good idea.

[Nortaneous]

I'm still fucking with this

/p t k b d g/ <p t c/qu b d g/gu>
/s ʃ h z ʒ/ <* * h s *>
/m n (ŋ) ɲ/ <m n (n) ñ>
/l ʎ r/ <l ll r>
/j w/ <y u>
/a ɒ e o i u/ <a å e o i u>
* /s/ is written <st> in /es/, <s> word-initially, <ss> word-finally, and <ç> elsewhere. /ʃ/ is written <c> before /i e/ and <x> elsewhere. /ʒ/ is written <g> before /i e/ and <j> elsewhere.

Gallånej:

Un lob, cu acotrat un añ abolad ex so cab, deget ñe kaber eç, hoc degilar call acus yuteçegar a añ al dilet co al lob at madogar eç. Acet el aret hrod al añ atel: "Dåmeñ, paç an to gramed me yeçat." "Ciget," babat al añ, "e adas ñe si nad." Yan al lob aret, "to allemadar en cab mo." "Ñet, dåmeñ, e herba ñe at es." Era al lob aret, "to ågat de pos mo." "Ñet," acramat al añ, "e åga de yan ñe at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et allemed et bedora par me." De od al lob eç cabat et madogat, et digat, "Noc! E ñe manol hora pras, deg to apega tod mi dana."
Atel al telan degirat un acus par so terañeda.

Could replace all the <ç>s with <ss>, but I'm figuring <ss> could've turned into a ligature that got reinterpreted as <ç>.

[Haplogy]

Gayon̂eĵ:

/p t k b d g/ <p t k b d g>
/s ʃ z ʒ h/ <s ŝ z ĵ h>
/m n ɲ/ <m n n̂>
/l ʎ r/ <l y r>
/j w/ <j v>
/u i o e a ɒ/ <u i o e a ô>

Un lob, ku akotrat un an̂ abolad es so kab, deĵet n̂e kaber es, ok deĵilar kay akuz jutesegar a an̂ al dilet ko al lob at madogar es. aŝet el aret hrod al an̂ atel: "Dômen̂, pas an to gramed me jesat." "Ŝiĵet," babat al an̂, "e adaz n̂e si nad." Jan al lob aret, "To ayemadar en kab mo." "N̂et, dômen̂, e erba n̂e at ez." Era al lob aret, "To ôgat de poz mo." "N̂et," akramat al an̂, "e ôga de jan n̂e at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et ayemed et bedora par me." De od al lob es kabat et madogat, et digat, "Nok! e n̂e manol hora praz, deg to apega tod mi dana." Atel al telan deĵirat un akuz par so teran̂eda.
/un lob, ku akotrat un aɲ abolad es so kab, deʒet ɲe kaber es, ok deʒilar kaʎ akuz jutesegar a aɲ al dilet ko al lob at madogar es. aʃet el aret hrod al aɲ atel: "dɒmeɲ, pas an to gramed me jesat." "ʃiʒet," babat al aɲ, "e adaz ɲe si nad." jan al lob aret, "to aʎemadar en kab mo." "ɲet, dɒmeɲ, e erba ɲe at ez." era al lob aret, "to ɒgat de poz mo." "ɲet," akramat al aɲ, "e ɒga de jan ɲe at bed, prol al lat de ma madar et aʎemed et bedora par me." de od al lob es kabat et madogat, et digat, "nok! e ɲe manol hora praz, deg to apega tod mi dana." atel al telan deʒirat un akuz par so teraɲeda./



Zhilo:

/ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <c ch nc q qh nq x xh nx ç çh nç>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng'>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph t th k kh q qh '>
/ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
/f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x g h>
/r j/ <r y>

/i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o ı u>
/ɛi œy/ <ei öü>

[2+3 clusivity]

I think I'd just modify Esmelthien's a little bit. Overall nice clean phonology for a click langauge. Probably needs more voicing contrasts in the vowels to get the full insanity dose.

Zhilo:

/ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <c ch nc q qh nqz zh nz x xh nx ç çh nç>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng'>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph t th k kh q qh '>
/ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
/f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x g h>
/r j/ <r y>

/i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o ı u>
/ɛi œy/ <ei öü>

[Haplogy]

/! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ/ <q qh nq x xh nx>
/q qʰ/ <q qh>
/ʃ/ <x>

Herp-a-derp.

Zhilo:

/ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <t th nt q qh nq x xh nx ţ ţh nţ>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng'>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph d dh c ch k kh '>
/ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
/f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l ş g h>
/r j/ <r y>

/i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i ü e ö a o ı u>
/ɛi œy/ <ei öü>

[2+3 clusivity]

Zhilo:

/ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <d dh nd z zh nz q qh nq j jh nj>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph d dh c ch k kh 1>
/ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
/f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x h : >
/r j/ <r y>

/i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i y e eo a o w u>
/ɛi œy/ <ei ey>

[WeepingElf]

Zhilo:

/ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <d dh nd z zh nz q qh nq j jh nj>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph d dh c ch k kh 1>
/ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
/f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x h : >
/r j/ <r y>

/i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i y e eo a o w u>
/ɛi œy/ <ei ey>

You are using d and dh for both clicks and pulmonic stops? Clearly this is an error.

[2+3 clusivity]

2+3 clusivity wrote:Zhilo:

/ǀ ǀʰ ᵑǀ ! !ʰ ᵑ! ǁ ǁʰ ᵑǁ ǂ ǂʰ ᵑǂ/ <d dh nd z zh nz q qh nq j jh nj>
/m n ŋ/ <m n g>
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ q qʰ ʔ/ <p ph t th c ch k kh 1>
/ts tɬ/ <ts tl>
/f v s ɬ ʃ χ h/ <f v s l x h : >
/r j/ <r y>

/i y e ø a o ɯ u/ <i y e eo a o w u>
/ɛi œy/ <ei ey>


You are using d and dh for both clicks and pulmonic stops? Clearly this is an error.

Double Dukes! Haha, yes. you are correct.

[2+3 clusivity]

Also, if you haven't seen these check them out: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... vich_Uslar.

[WeepingElf]

Two versions of Caledonian, an Albic language of Scotland.

Old, abandoned version:

/p t c k q/
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/
/ʘ ǃ ǁ/
/f s ç x χ h/
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/
/l r/
/w j/
/a i u/

Current (but still not final) version:

/p t ʈ k q/
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/
/f s ʂ x χ h/
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/
/l ɭ/
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/
/a i~ɨ u/

The new version has consonant harmony, with alveolars and velars in one class and retroflexes and uvulars in another, the labials being neutral. The vowel /i/ has an allophone [ɨ] next to retroflexes and uvulars.

Also, the language has an initial mutation: /p t ʈ k q/ become /w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/, and /pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ become /f s ʂ x χ/ in certain contexts.

[Haplogy]

Old version of Caledonian:

/p t c k q/ <b d de/id* k g>
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t te/it* c q>
/ʘ ǃ ǁ/ <po lo ke>
/f s ç x X h/ <f s he/ih* ḩ x h>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ne/in* ņ ṅ>
/l r/ <l r>
/w j/ <w y>
/a i u/ <a i u>
*_V/V_



Current version of Caledonian:

/p t ʈ k q/ <b d ḍ g ġ>
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t ṭ k q>
/f s ʂ x X h/ <f s ṣ ǩ x h>
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ṇ ŋ ṅ>
/l ɭ/ <l ḷ>
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/ <v r ṛ ǧ ṙ>
/a i~ɨ u/ <a i u>

[2+3 clusivity]

Weeping Elf's Redo


/p t ʈ k q/ <b d d k k> (Yep, k v. c)
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t t c c>
/f s ʂ x χ h/ <f s s x x 1>
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/ <m n n q q>
/l ɭ/ <l l>
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/ <v r r g g>
/a i~ɨ u/ <a/ha i/hi u/hu>

Notes: the <h> series before a vowel triggers the retroflex/uvular v. alveolar/velar harmony system. Mutations are noted by <'_______>


consonant harmony, with alveolars and velars in one class and retroflexes and uvulars in another, the labials being neutral. The vowel /i/ has an allophone [ɨ] next to retroflexes and uvulars. An initial mutation: /p t ʈ k q/ become /w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/, and /pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ become /f s ʂ x χ/ in certain contexts.

[Grunnen]

Current (but still not final) version:

/p t ʈ k q/
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/
/f s ʂ x χ h/
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/
/l ɭ/
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/
/a i~ɨ u/

The new version has consonant harmony, with alveolars and velars in one class and retroflexes and uvulars in another, the labials being neutral. The vowel /i/ has an allophone [ɨ] next to retroflexes and uvulars.

Also, the language has an initial mutation: /p t ʈ k q/ become /w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/, and /pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ become /f s ʂ x χ/ in certain contexts.

/p t ʈ k q/ <p t tr k q>
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ <ph th trh kh qh>
/f s ʂ x χ h/ <f s sr ç çh h>
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/ <m n nr nk nq>
/l ɭ/ <l lr>
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/ <w r rr x xh>
/a i~ɨ u/ <a i u>

So no transparent harmony classes

[WeepingElf]

This is how I romanized the two versions of Caledonian myself. I don't remember the scheme for the old, abandoned version (which is not "Old Caledonian"; it is not a diachronic ancestor of the other version but an obsolete version that has been scrapped) precisely, but I think it was:

/p t c k q/ p t c k q
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/ p`t`c` k` q`
/ʘ ǃ ǁ/ p t c
/f s ç x χ h/ f s ch kh qh h
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ m n nj ng nq
/l r/ l r
/w j/ w j
/a i u/ a i u

For the current version, the current romanization scheme is this:

/p t ʈ k q/ p t ṭ k ḳ
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ ph th ṭh kh ḳh
/f s ʂ x χ h/ f s ṣ x x̣ h
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/ m n ṇ ṅ ṇ̇
/l ɭ/ l ḷ
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/ w r ṛ ṙ ṛ̇
/a i~ɨ u/ a i ị u

This is based on the systematic of using the dot below (inspired by the scholarly romanization of Indic languages, of course) to distinguish the two consonant harmony sets. In the case of /i/, the backed allophone [ɨ] which occurs together with the retroflex/uvular set is also written with a dot below. The dot above is used to distinguish dorsal nasals and rhotics from coronal ones. BTW, the labials and /h/ are transparent with regard to consonant harmony.

The apparent ambiguity resulting from using both h-digraphs and the letter h itself is none, as wherever /h/ ends up following an unaspirated stop, they merge into an aspirated stop.

There is a revision pending decision which adds preaspirated and "ambiaspirated" (i. e., both pre- and postaspirated) stops to the roster. These would be written hp ht ... and hph hth ..., respectively.

[sangi39]

WeepingElf's Caledonian:

Old, abandoned version:

/p t c k q/ <b d j g ğ>
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t c k q>
/ʘ ǃ ǁ/ <p! t! l!>
/f s ç x χ h/ <f s ś x x̂ h>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ń ng nğ>
/l r/ <l r>
/w j/ <w y>
/a i u/ <a i u>

Current (but still not final) version:

/p t ʈ k q/ <b d ḍ g ġ>
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t ṭ c ċ>
/f s ʂ x χ h/ <f s ṣ x ẋ h>*
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ṇ ŋ ŋ̇~ṅ>
/l ɭ/ <l ḷ>
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/ <w r ṛ y ẏ~j>*
/a i~ɨ u/ <a i u>

*Written <ph th ṭh ch ċh bh dh ḍh gh ġh> if they are mutated /pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ p t ʈ k q/.

<ẏ~j ŋ̇~ṅ> are just graphical variations, possibly for ease of writing.

[Nortaneous]

/p t c k q/ <b d j g gh>
/pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t c k kh>
/ʘ ǃ ǁ/ <p! t! l!>
/f s ç x χ h/ <f s ç x xh h>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ñ ng ngh>
/l r/ <l r>
/w j/ <w y>
/a i u/ <a i u>

Current (but still not final) version:

/p t ʈ k q/ <b d dh g gh>
/pʰ tʰ ʈʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t th k kh>
/f s ʂ x χ h/ <f s sh x xh h>*
/m n ɳ ŋ ɴ/ <m n nh ng ngh>
/l ɭ/ <l lh>
/w r ɽ ɣ ʁ/ <w r rh y yh>*
/a i~ɨ u/ <a i u>