YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Click »

Ahzoh wrote:Considering my obsession/fixation (emphasis by Click) on this linguistic aspect and my impatience, I simply cannot wait years... I must work on it now...
I just need information, and examples.
Get over yourself.
Ahzoh wrote:Another issue is that I don't want a large amount of modal/auxiliary verbs, they seem too Germanic and I fear they remind me of English...
Croatian has lots of modal and auxiliary verbs, and it’s by no means a Germanic language.
Ahzoh wrote:I've only got three goals for my languages:
  • it is naturalistic
  • takes after a style of a language, but doesn't clone it (in this case, Semitic)
  • will actually be spoken by people in real-life
There’s a very slim chance that you are ever going to acquire the third goal, and I doubt your second one because you incessantly asked all over the CBB how to make your conlang more Semitic, asserting you need actual Lord’s Prayer in Hebrew instead of any Hebrew text in general for making your translation of Lord’s Prayer look more Semitic.
Last edited by Click on Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Vardelm »

Ahzoh wrote:
  • will actually be spoken by people in real-life
You may want to re-evaluate this goal. I feel pretty safe in saying this just isn't going to happen.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Click wrote: There’s a very slim chance that you are ever going to acquire the third goal, and I doubt your second one because you incessantly asked all over the CBB how to make your conlang more Semitic, asserting you need actual Lord’s Prayer in Hebrew instead of any Hebrew text in general for making your translation of Lord’s Prayer look more Semitic.
You clearly don't understand the method to my madness...
Get over yourself.
How nice of you! You sure know how to give good advice!
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Cúlro wrote:
can you provide visual examples of these, I learn better when I see examples...
Imagine an agglutinating CVC-syllable language with (1) rules on which consonants can form clusters at syllable boundaries (eg stops and liquids can cluster, but stops and stops can't), and (2) where stress is fixed on the final syllable.
In a word like tarok, the o would be stressed. If a suffix (eg plural, or a verb tense) was added, forming tarokim, the o would no longer be stressed as it is no longer final - the i, now final, is stressed.
If unstressed vowels were to delete at some point in the future of this language, that would leave trok and tarkim. Note how the three consonants t r k appear in different positions - a cluster of tr and a single k in one form, and a single t and a cluster of rk in the other. The changing stress patterns change which vowels delete, and thus which of the three consonants appear as clusters and which have vowels between them.
This is the basic origin of the 3 consonant system - because different vowels can delete from between them, it's only the consonants that remain constant between all forms (and at that, not even their placement stays constant) - trok and tarkim have no segments in common except the three consonants. This could be represented as CCoC and CaCCim
Now imagine what would happen to a word takok - it would be suffixed to become takokim. But now when the unstressed vowels delete, you would get the illegal cluster *tk: takok :> *tkok. The vowel wouldn't delete, and so you'd have the pair takok and takkim - ie CaCoC and CaCCim.
So the same morphological form (a suffixed -im) gives rise to two different patterns:
CCoC and CaCCim
CaCoC and CaCCim
Alternately, the vowel could delete, and an epenthetic vowel (maybe echoing the main vowel) would be added before the cluster: otkok - there are different strategies possible to deal with such illegal clusters.
As well as simple deletion, affix vowels can cause vowels in the stem to change quality - eg the i in the suffix could cause the previous vowel in the stem to raise or front:
tarok+-im :> tarokim :> tarkim (clusters block the vowel change)
takok+-im :> takokim :> takkim :> tekkim (geminate consonants don't block the vowel change)
This leaves you with CCoC ~ CaCCim and CaCoC ~ CeCCim as two different pairs of surface forms for the same morphological category (eg singular ~ plural pairs), based solely on which consonants are present. If the second two consonants were unable to form a legal cluster some other repair strategy would be required, leading to another surface form.

What you need to make it work is a system of affixes that cause both the stressed syllable to change, and vowel qualities in the stem to change (ablaut). Then you need deletion of as many unstressed vowels as possible, and rules to cope with all the possible consonant clusters that could arise as a result - that could be vowels not deleted to avoid the cluster forming (in which case the deletion could be shifted to a neighbouring vowel), or one or both of the consonants could assimilate in some way to form a legal cluster (eg -n+p- :> -mp- or -mb-.) If you plan how this happened in the parent language, you'll get a much more detailed, richer and realistic system.

Richness in the triconsonantal daughter language can come from richness in affixes in the parent (different affixes for different genders of nouns or classes of verbs etc) and phonotactics - which clusters are allowed and how the language repairs illegal ones.


Hope this helps.
By your example I was able to produce these forms:
Form Changes and Vowel Deletions:

Tērok
~ Trok
~ Tērkīm
Tēkok
~ Tēkok or Otkok
~ Tēkkīm :> Tokkīm
Takad
~ Takad or Atkad
~ Takdīm :> Tekdīm
Kēgod
~ Kēgod or Okgod
~ Kēgdīm :> Kīgdīm
Nūkēgod
~Nokgod
~Nūkgodīm

I think I'm heading in the right direction...
Also takad :> atkad seems similar to Arabic walad :> awlad.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Cúlro »

Seems like the right direction, yes.

Now you need to exercise some ingenuity in creating affixes, vowel change rules, stress movement rules, and consonant cluster rules. Have a look through the 'sound change' threads for ideas.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

Note that analogy plays a huge role in this: patterns exist because a given shape is analogized to words where regular sound change would not have produced it.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I made some affix system, right so far?

Noun Declension:
Masculine -ī
Neuter -0
Feminine -ē
Masculine Plural -ot
Neuter Plural -al
Feminine Plural -am/em

Verb Conjugation
Singular -0
Plural -īm

Verb Tense:
Future ~ ʾa-
Present ~ 0-
Past ~ nū-

ʾAkged - will think
ʾaCCeC :> ʾaCCeCīm
Kēgod - think(ing)
CēCoC :> CēCCīm
Nūkgod - thought
NūCCoC :> NūCCaCīm

Verb Mood:
Obligation ~ hī-
Possibility ~ ma-
Subjunctive ~ va-
Jussive ~ ḏū-

Ḏūkgod :> Ḏīkgadīm - think-JUSS.
ḎūCCoC :> ḎīCCaCīm
Hīkgod :> Hīkgadīm - must think
HīCCoC :> HīCCaCīm
Makgod :> Mēkgadīm - can think
MaCCoC :> MēCCaCīm
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Cúlro »

Looks better, yes.

Did you get these forms by regular deletion rules from affixes in a parent language?

Have you thought about what happens if the consonants in one of the CC clusters forms an illegal cluster?

It looks a lot like Hebrew though, with the -im's and -ot's


To get a rich system with naturalistic irregularities and patterns, I would focus on the parent language for now - the different forms and affixes and where the stress moves to. Try and make as detailed a system as you can - different affixes and rules for different situations. Then derive the modern forms from that.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Cúlro wrote:Looks better, yes.

Did you get these forms by regular deletion rules from affixes in a parent language?

Have you thought about what happens if the consonants in one of the CC clusters forms an illegal cluster?

It looks a lot like Hebrew though, with the -im's and -ot's


To get a rich system with naturalistic irregularities and patterns, I would focus on the parent language for now - the different forms and affixes and where the stress moves to. Try and make as detailed a system as you can - different affixes and rules for different situations. Then derive the modern forms from that.
Problem is, I don't really know what could be an illegal cluster as my phonotactics are fairly loose, especially if the clusters are across a syllable boundary. I could have /lχ/ as in /al.χem/ but not /lχam/

Though I do have these as illegal clusters:
•voiced/voiceless fricative pairs aren't allowed, so no /sz/or /xɣ/
•You can't have uvulars near each other unless they are geminated; /qq/ and /χχ/ are allowed but not /χq/ and /ʀq/and /qʀ/, though you can have /qχ/ because it will be an affricate.
•You can't have stops from a point a more front POA to a more backer POA, as in you can have /kt/ but not /tk/, though the exeption is you can have /pt/ and /bd/.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Cúlro »

So if any of those are created by a pattern such as CēCoC :> CēCCīm, what happens to the illegal cluster?

This is where having rules to derive the forms from a parent language becomes useful - instead of just adding an epenthetic vowel to break it up to CēCeCīm, you can justify having something more interesting happen.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Cúlro wrote:So if any of those are created by a pattern such as CēCoC :> CēCCīm, what happens to the illegal cluster?

This is where having rules to derive the forms from a parent language becomes useful - instead of just adding an epenthetic vowel to break it up to CēCeCīm, you can justify having something more interesting happen.
well it's ok for stops to fit into CēCCīm, due to syllable boundary.

What about assimilation for voice/voiceless pairs of the same POA: /sz/ :> /ss/, /zs/ :> /zz/?

I thought about making a second tense plural: -īha, as in Kīgdīha but it defeats my goal of 3 syllable verbs, as in Nuk-god-ī-ha, and that is unacceptable, unless I can compress my patterns somehow...
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by KathTheDragon »

Why is it so important that all verbs are 3 syllables or less?

As for a solution, a-umlaut is always an option.

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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

KathAveara wrote:Why is it so important that all verbs are 3 syllables or less?

As for a solution, a-umlaut is always an option.
Because it would make my language sound stilted and overlong. It wouldn't be flowing in terms of stress either.

Not sure how a-umlaut will help me...
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
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Post by KathTheDragon »

nukgodīha > nukgodēha > nukgodēh

Edit: Also, spoken language doesn't really have 'words' and 'sentences' so much as 'strings of phones with pauses'. Often, words will run together, making apparent longer words. Then, bits often get syncopated, typically unstressed weak vowels, or the odd final consonant.

And 4-syllable words don't make languages sound stilted or overlong, provided not every word is. English has plenty of words longer than that, but they're just rather uncommon. Although, iirc, polysynthetic* languages can get quite long words, particularly* in the verbs...

*That's a 5-syllable word right there!

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

Well, it's his language, so he can do whatever he wants with it.

...Oh wait you said you wanted it to be naturalistic. Yeah, I'm not sure you're going to be able to avoid verbs exceeding three syllables.
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Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Hallow XIII wrote:Well, it's his language, so he can do whatever he wants with it.

...Oh wait you said you wanted it to be naturalistic. Yeah, I'm not sure you're going to be able to avoid verbs exceeding three syllables.
No, but it's surely stilted and unflowing if EVERY verb is over 3 syllables long.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Vardelm »

Ahzoh wrote:
Hallow XIII wrote:Yeah, I'm not sure you're going to be able to avoid verbs exceeding three syllables.
No, but it's surely stilted and unflowing if EVERY verb is over 3 syllables long.
How many verbs are you going to use in a typical sentence? I would guess it's usually 1 or 2, and if you have a bunch of other words in there as well (from nouns to adverbs to prepositions to auxiliaries to particles) then is it really going to be such a problem?

Also, I think a case could be made that the less syllables verbs (and most words for that matter), the MORE stilted and unflowing a language is going to be. Why? Because of the small gaps between words ("hiatus"?). The more breaks you have, it seems like the language would not be as "flowing". When I hear Chinese (which AFAIK is highly isolating and doesn't have a lot of multi-syllable words), I hardly think of it as "flowing".

There are plenty of languages that have long words. Have you tried downloading sound samples of a few to actually see if they seem "stilted" to you?
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Post by sangi39 »

Not to mention that not every verb is going to be more than three syllables long. If you look just at Arabic, you've got two-syllable, three-syllable and all the way up to a few six-syllable (or more?) forms of a given verb depending on tense, aspect, mood, person, number and gender, but it seems the majority of those forms are either three or four syllables long. How the addition of "-iha" or "I'm not sure you're going to be able to avoid verbs exceeding three syllables" means "every verb will have more than three syllables", I don't know, but Arabic, at least the recordings I've listened to, certainly isn't "stilted" or "unflowing", even if you happen to think that about uvulars and the emphatics :P
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

I worked on the modal system of my verbs, and realized that moods do not seem to go well with tense, you can't say "I would will see" or "I can made"

So that makes my life easier
I reduced the number of aspects to one and made causative and Intensive into voices.

Past - NoCCoC :> NūCCoCam
Present - CēCoC :> CoCCam
Future - ʾaCCeC :> ʾaCCeCam
Jussive - ŠūCCoC :> ŠīCCūCam
Obligation - YīCCoC :> YīCCaCam
Possibility - MēCCoC :> MēCCaCam
Subjunctive - VaCCoC :> VaCCūCam

Aspects;
Perfective: ū-
Inchoative: han
Cessative: jal

Other;
Causative: -ī/-eš
Intensive: tō/ta

Valḫomī - would provoke
Vakyodī - would enlighten
Valḫūmeš - would provoke (pl)
Vakyūdeš - would enlighten (pl)

ZY HYM VLḪMY.
Zē hēyam valḫomī.
I would provoke him.

KM HYM MLḪMY.
Kīm hēyam mēlḫomī.
You can provoke him.

YH HYM TH-YLḪMŠ!
Ya hēyam ta-yīlḫameš!
We must provoke him!

YH TW GṚBNL TH-YḴVNŠ!
Ya tū gṛabnal ta-yīḵvaneš!
We must slaughter the filth!

Valēḫom :> valḫom
Valēḫomī :> valḫomī
Valēḫomam :> valḫūmam
Valēḫomeš :> valḫūmeš
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Cúlro »

How will you express "(When I was young) I couldn't swim but now I can and I will be able to do it better when I'm older"? - past, present, future distinctions of ability
Also "after you marry you must look after your wife?" - future obligation

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by Vardelm »

Ahzoh wrote:I worked on the modal system of my verbs, and realized that moods do not seem to go well with tense, you can't say "I would will see" or "I can made".
You're thinking too much in terms of English. Just because you don't use those constructions in English doesn't mean another language wouldn't find them perfectly acceptable, or even require them. Even in English, you could rephrase them slightly, as in "I could have made".
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Cúlro wrote:How will you express "(When I was young) I couldn't swim but now I can and I will be able to do it better when I'm older"? - past, present, future distinctions of ability
Also "after you marry you must look after your wife?" - future obligation
I would use the ability verb "to be able to"

Could is conditional possibilty.
This is the basic template of expressing modality:
According to [a set of rules, wishes, beliefs,...] it is [necessary, possible] that [the main proposition] is the case.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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Post by KathTheDragon »

Your analysis seems very mal-informed. 'Could' quite often crops up as expressing ability, not possibility, especially when negated.

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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by KathTheDragon »

Also, if it helps, I could show some declension tables from my diachronic consonantal root language

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احمکي ارش-ھجن
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Re: YŠKK YT-VṚḴẔKM (Yaškik Yat-Vṛḵaẕīkam) scratchpad

Post by احمکي ارش-ھجن »

Well, if that's the case I'd say "when I was young I was not able to swim, now Iam able to, and I will be able to swim better in the future."

KathAveara wrote:Also, if it helps, I could show some declension tables from my diachronic consonantal root language
That'd be nice.
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

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