Sound Change Quickie Thread

[Pinetree]

Is there any evidence that allophones would become distinguished from the phoneme, and then merge with a different phoneme?

e.g. [ɾ] is an allophone of [d], then is considered distinct, then merges with [r]

Yes, Latin /s/ developed allophone [z] between vowels which then rhotacised to [ɾ] then merged with pre-existent /r/ and spread elsewhere (*flosem to florem then to flor and fills the whole paradigm).

Thank you!

[Ambrisio]

In Quosaw, historical /r/ and retroflexes undergo some pretty weird sound changes: for example, the usual reflex of /pɐ/ is /bə/ (as in /pɐɲcɐ/ "five" -> /bə̃ɕ/ "five") but /pɐrʋɐm/ ("festival") becomes /ɢwɔwə̃/ ("moment, bacchanal") and /pɐʈʰɐn̪ɐm/ ("reading") becomes /ɢwɔtənə̃/ ("reading"). However if a vowel follows the R, as in historical /pɐrɐmɐ/ ("supreme"), the R is considered the beginning of a syllable and becomes the expected uvular fricative: /bəʁɔm/ ("finicky").

The sound changes are so weird (though systematic) that even after six months of developing the language I have a hard time cataloguing them.

[Qwynegold]

In Quosaw, historical /r/ and retroflexes undergo some pretty weird sound changes: for example, the usual reflex of /pɐ/ is /bə/ (as in /pɐɲcɐ/ "five" -> /bə̃ɕ/ "five") but /pɐrʋɐm/ ("festival") becomes /ɢwɔwə̃/ ("moment, bacchanal") and /pɐʈʰɐn̪ɐm/ ("reading") becomes /ɢwɔtənə̃/ ("reading"). However if a vowel follows the R, as in historical /pɐrɐmɐ/ ("supreme"), the R is considered the beginning of a syllable and becomes the expected uvular fricative: /bəʁɔm/ ("finicky").

The sound changes are so weird (though systematic) that even after six months of developing the language I have a hard time cataloguing them.

Oh, it's a conlang. I was like "what, a North American lang with Greek loan words?!" But how did you get /ɢw/ out of /p/?

[8Deer]

In Quosaw, historical /r/ and retroflexes undergo some pretty weird sound changes: for example, the usual reflex of /pɐ/ is /bə/ (as in /pɐɲcɐ/ "five" -> /bə̃ɕ/ "five") but /pɐrʋɐm/ ("festival") becomes /ɢwɔwə̃/ ("moment, bacchanal") and /pɐʈʰɐn̪ɐm/ ("reading") becomes /ɢwɔtənə̃/ ("reading"). However if a vowel follows the R, as in historical /pɐrɐmɐ/ ("supreme"), the R is considered the beginning of a syllable and becomes the expected uvular fricative: /bəʁɔm/ ("finicky").

The sound changes are so weird (though systematic) that even after six months of developing the language I have a hard time cataloguing them.

Oh, it's a conlang. I was like "what, a North American lang with Greek loan words?!" But how did you get /ɢw/ out of /p/?

I once made a conlang (more like a series of words that I derived by sound changes, but whatever) that had /qʷ/ from clusters with /p/ and either /t/ or /k/. I think it went pt > pʔ > p' > kʷ' > qʷ. Silly.

But I'd like to see the sound changes for Ambrisio's lang as well.

[Ambrisio]

Actually it's a con-descendant of Sanskrit (not Greek or anything North American). I derived the name "Quosaw" from Sanskrit "bhasha" (language).

And the sound changes are : /pɐʈʰ../ -> /bɐˁt../ -> /bˁɔt../ -> /ɢbɔt../ (the first stop is co-articulated) -> /ɢwɔt../

In summary, rhotics and retroflexes are pharyngealized, and the pharyngealization spreads to nearby sounds while the retroflection disappears, and the pharyngealized sounds mutate in strange ways, so that the final stage of Quosaw has no rhotics and lots of sounds produced in the back of the throat. If the rhotic consonant /r/ begins a syllable, it turns into a pharyngealized rhotic /ɻˁ/, then a pharyngealized uvular /ʁˁ/ and finally plain /ʁ/ without any effect on preceding syllables.

I loved this change so much that I incorporated it in the most common Quosaw greeting: Ĝwɔiŝaf! /ɢwɔjɕəf/ (literally, "enters", from Sanskrit "pravishati"; /ɢwɔjɕəθ/ to a small group of people; /ɢwɔjɕəmb/ to a large group of people).

[Qwynegold]

Actually it's a con-descendant of Sanskrit (not Greek or anything North American). I derived the name "Quosaw" from Sanskrit "bhasha" (language).

And the sound changes are : /pɐʈʰ../ -> /bɐˁt../ -> /bˁɔt../ -> /ɢbɔt../ (the first stop is co-articulated) -> /ɢwɔt../

In summary, rhotics and retroflexes are pharyngealized, and the pharyngealization spreads to nearby sounds while the retroflection disappears, and the pharyngealized sounds mutate in strange ways, so that the final stage of Quosaw has no rhotics and lots of sounds produced in the back of the throat. If the rhotic consonant /r/ begins a syllable, it turns into a pharyngealized rhotic /ɻˁ/, then a pharyngealized uvular /ʁˁ/ and finally plain /ʁ/ without any effect on preceding syllables.

I loved this change so much that I incorporated it in the most common Quosaw greeting: Ĝwɔiŝaf! /ɢwɔjɕəf/ (literally, "enters", from Sanskrit "pravishati"; /ɢwɔjɕəθ/ to a small group of people; /ɢwɔjɕəmb/ to a large group of people).

Aha, interesting! [ɢ] has always seemed to me like a hard sound to get into a language that didn't already have it.

[Click]

Is this plausible?
/CVˈɾV/ /ˈCɾVː/
Note:C can be any consonant except /ˈɾ/ and V can be any vowel.

[Thry]

Is this plausible?
/CVˈɾV/ /ˈCɾVː/
Note:C can be any consonant except /ˈɾ/ and V can be any vowel.

Why not? It's just apocope with compensatory lengthening, makes perfect sense to me.

Save for the length part, it's well-attested in say, Latin: *[o.no.'ra.4e] > [on.'ra4]

[Click]

Thank you.I am still very new to diachronics,so I may ask some stupid questions on some sound changes next few pages.

[Thry]

Thank you.I am still very new to diachronics,so I may ask some stupid questions on some sound changes next few pages.

You're welcome.

Certainly, though I didn't want to imply your question was stupid in any way .

[Qwynegold]

I'm working with the sound changes of one conlang, and need to get rid of coda consonants at one point. The nasals are a little problematic. I thought that I'd nasalize vowels preceding nasals (in preparation, because the other consonants also go through an intermediary step before disappearing). And then I'd just elide nasals after nasalized vowels. But the problem is that shortly after the nasalization contrast in vowels is lost, and I can't move that SC to somewhere later. So how would you get rid of nasal consonants if VN > ṼN > Ṽ > V is not possible?

[Click]

Some Croatian speakers change /m/ in coda to /n/ and then simply elide the /n/ without nasalizing the preceding vowel.
However, this happens only in fast speech.

[Nortaneous]

I'm working with the sound changes of one conlang, and need to get rid of coda consonants at one point. The nasals are a little problematic. I thought that I'd nasalize vowels preceding nasals (in preparation, because the other consonants also go through an intermediary step before disappearing). And then I'd just elide nasals after nasalized vowels. But the problem is that shortly after the nasalization contrast in vowels is lost, and I can't move that SC to somewhere later. So how would you get rid of nasal consonants if VN > ṼN > Ṽ > V is not possible?

In Kien, I have Vm Vn Vŋ > Ṽw Ṽj Ṽ / _#, followed by dropping of final glides in syllables with identical initial glides. (Hence the name: kettw-an > keʰtʷn̩ > kjeɸn̩ > kjemn > kjen > kjẽj > kjẽ, iirc)

[----]

In Burmese, syllables that historically ended in /ɲ/ now are pronounced /-i/. (cf. သည် - sany - /θì/). However, other nasal codas have resulted in either a 'placeless' nasal or simply nasalization on the vowel (Compare Japanese). Perhaps you could do something similar to the first change, depending on which nasals are present.

[TaylorS]

Is /T/ and/or /D/ becoming /l/ attested? I'm using it for English > Mekoshan.

[Pogostick Man]

Is /T/ and/or /D/ becoming /l/ attested? I'm using it for English > Mekoshan.

If you fortite your interdentals, I've heard of d > l in a Bantu language called Sebirwa (Cebanne, A. (2000), "The Sebirwa language: a synchronic and diachronic account". Pula: Botswana Journal of African Studies). Interestingly, in the vicinity of /n/, */l/ apparently became /ɖ/.

[Nortaneous]

Is /T/ and/or /D/ becoming /l/ attested? I'm using it for English > Mekoshan.

Not sure if it's attested, but D > l sounds fine to me.

[Click]

Are these sound changes plausible: /θ/ > /t͡s/ /ð/ > /d͡z/ ?

[WeepingElf]

Is /T/ and/or /D/ becoming /l/ attested? I'm using it for English > Mekoshan.

Not sure if it's attested, but D > l sounds fine to me.

It seems to have happened in some Uralic languages which reflect Proto-Uralic *ð as /l/. It is uncertain whether *ð really was /ð/ or something else, though. Some Uralicists assume that PU *ð really was a lateral obstruent instead.

[WeepingElf]

Are these sound changes plausible: /θ/ > /t͡s/ /ð/ > /d͡z/ ?

I think yes.

[Pole, the]

And /z/ > /l/?

[WeepingElf]

And /z/ > /l/?

If /ð/ can become /l/, why not /z/?

[----]

I could easily see /z/ becoming /l/ perhaps by way of /ɹ/ or /ɾ/.

[Plusquamperfekt]

And /z/ > /l/?

If /ð/ can become /l/, why not /z/?

I was <=> ich war
periculoso <=> peligroso

[Thry]

periculoso <=> peligroso

That is just metathesis, I think it wouldn't count.

--

I'm trying to get rid of /T/ without going to /s/ in most of the cases. What about these changes?

[paT] > [paj]
[faTas] > [fajas]

T > j, V#

If it's too implausible, I could have it elide and explain the [j] some different way.