Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by CatDoom »

dunomapuka wrote:As it happens I did some revisions of Pre-PL a few months ago based on feedback I had received and I've developed a good sense of the internal history of the family. I'd like to post it but it currently exists in a somewhat scattershot note format that I'm not sure how I'll develop into a good article.

I got rid of the glottalic consonants, sadly. but Akana has some awesome material for you to work with - some of the Western languages have ejectives. Or you could always craft a language isolate. I like isolates. Or indeed a small family, as you said. I just have to declare Lukpanic pre-history off limits for the moment because I do have some cool material that I just haven't released yet.
Aha! I'll be interested in seeing where you go with that, should you decide to put together an article. In the meantime I'll see what else sparks my imagination; there's certainly no lack of inspiration on the Akana wiki. :)

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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by roninbodhisattva »

Maybe I'll finally take the leap and situate Waxaanu, my latest venture, in Akana. Are there any deserty areas?

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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by Cedh »

You're more than welcome! As for deserty areas, Akana doesn't have any equivalent to the Sahara or Gobi, but there are several smaller deserts (marked in red on this climate map). The most interesting of these in terms of possible interaction with existing languages and cultures would be those on the northwestern coasts of South Peilaš and Zeluzhia. The northern edge of the former is populated by the speakers of my own conlang Tmaśareʔ, and the western half of the latter is occupied by the nation of Zeluzh.

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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by CatDoom »

As an update of my previous posts, I've been developing a Steppe Western language descended from Kohorik's Satnímʔa, which I'm calling C'ihuzi. It's got 39 phonemic consonants, including a 4-way distinction between voiceless, voiced, aspirated, and ejective plosives. It also has a somewhat more analytic grammar than its parent and really irregular noun cases, as a result of the breakdown of the animacy hierarchy and a pretty radical reduction of unstressed syllables. It's still very much a work in progress, but I'm interested to see what people think so far!

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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by Dē Graut Bʉr »

It looks nice so far, though I don't really like the <ö> for /o/ that much. I'd rather use <ó> for that, but it's of course up to you to decide on that.

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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by CatDoom »

Dē Graut Bʉr wrote:It looks nice so far, though I don't really like the <ö> for /o/ that much. I'd rather use <ó> for that, but it's of course up to you to decide on that.
The orthography for Satnimʔa (of which C'ihuzi is a descendent) uses <ö> for /o/, which it really the only reason I'm using it. That may change, however; right now C'huzi vowels are pretty conservative - lots of unstressed vowels (including basically every instance of /ə/) were elided, and there were some height changes as /ʊ/ merged with /u/, /ɔ/ lowered to /ɒ/, and Satnimʔa's ATR harmony turned into height harmony, but a lot of vowels have stayed basically the same.

I'm not sure how realistic that is, so I may put in more vowel changes in the future. I really do need to put together a list of sound changes from Satnimʔa.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

I was curious if Cedh (or any of the other Akana people here) remembered the significance of the color-coding on this map. I've been working on a Western language, and I was curious as to what subdivisions of the family were represented here.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

I made that map at a time when the Western family was much smaller than today. IIRC, only Proto-Western had been described at the time, and only Proto-Coastal-Western and Gezoro had already been posited as descendants. So you can't really match up specific colors with specific branches of the family. Maybe a new version of the map would be in order...

The general picture is not too far off though. Green and yellow would be two as-of-yet unknown descendants of Tmaśareʔ, the two orange hues would be descendants of Empotle7á, the two red colors would be descendants of Çetázó, the two blue colors would be Coastal Western languages, the small purple spots in the east would be Tjakori, and the large purple areas in the northwest would be descendants of Iŋomœ́.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by kodé »

So, I've been perusing the Akana website, and it's grown leaps and bounds from the time I contributed (very little) to it. Now that I think of it, I tried deriving Gezoro from Proto-Western over six years ago :o Holy crap!

If I have any free time over the next year (which I most likely won't), I'd love to re-contribute!
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GrinningManiac wrote:Local pronunciation - /ˈtoʊ.stə/
Ah, so now I know where Towcester pastries originated! Cheers.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

Welcome back! It'd be great to see some new contributions from you, be it Gezoro or something else!


BTW, I had a look at the Gezoro sound changes a while back and figured out a few additional details that would make several more of the attested loanwords fit:
More: show
(The following code is for GSCA v.0.5)

##############################################################################
# Proto-Western to Gezoro
##############################################################################


### Lenition

* bɬ|bl|b w #_
* dɬ|dl d #_
* ʣ z #_
* ʤ j #_
* <+ʃʧ> s #_<stress>*V

* 0 ; ·V<+ʣʤʃʧ>_
* <+ʣʤʃʧ> <+zzɹɹ> V~*_<stress>*V R
* ; 0 _

### ADDED
* <+sʃ> <+zʒ> V~*l_<stress>*V R


### ADDED
### Fricative assimilation

* <+sʃɬ> > _<+sʃɬ>



### Loss of /ʔ/

* ʔ > _C
* ʔ 0 _


### Simplification of /ɬ/

* ɬ l V~*_<stress>*V R
* ɬɬ ll V~*_<stress>*V R
* ɬɬ ɬ _
* ɬ h _C
* ɬ l _


### Palatalisation of laterals

* 0 ; Cʷ*ʰ*_l<stress>*V
* ; 0 <+tdʦʣsznl>ʷ*ʰ*_
* l;l ʎʎ _
* ;l ʎ _


### ADDED
### Palatalisation/lenition of unstressed /ɣ/

* ɣ j V~*_<+ie>
* ɣ j V~*_ˌ<+ie>~*#


### ADDED
### Lenition of voiced CL clusters

* <+bdɣ> > V~*_<+lʎɹ>
! *takadłe > tɔkaːre (> tjakori)


### Unstressed vowel reduction

* <+aeiu> <+ɐæɪʊ> Cʷ*ʰ*_<+ptʦʧkbdʣʤsʃh>C*ʷ*ʰ*<stress>*V
* <+aeiu> ə Cʷ*ʰ*_~<+ptʦʧkbdʣʤsʃh>C*ʷ*ʰ*<stress>*V
* <+aeiu> ə Cʷ*ʰ*_~#
* <+aeiu> 0 ·_
* <+aeiu> 0 Cʷ*ʰ*_# ! TODO: only after single C and certain clusters?
* · 0 _

### ADDED
* a ː a~*<stress>*_~*#
* e ː e~*<stress>*_~*#
* i ː i~*<stress>*_~*#
* u ː u~*<stress>*_~*#


* a ː a~*<stress>*_~*C
* e ː e~*<stress>*_~*C
* i ː i~*<stress>*_~*C
* u ː u~*<stress>*_~*C
* ~<stress> #2#1 _ː~*C
* <+aeiu><stress> #2#1 _~ː~*C
* ː~ #2#1 _
* ~ 0 %_
* <+aeiu><stress> #2#1 _ː

### ADDED
* 0 ŋ V~ː*V~*ː*_<stress>*V
* 0 ŋ V~*ː*V~ː*_<stress>*V
* 0 j Vː*<+iɪeæ>ː*_<stress>*V
* 0 w Vː*<+uʊoɔ>ː*_<stress>*V


* <+aeiu>~* 0 <^stress>_<stress>*V
* <+aeiu>~* 0 <^stress>_<+mnɲŋwjlʎɹɣ>ʷ*<stress>*V


### ADDED
### Merger of sibilants
! TODO: V > i / <+ʧʃʤʒɲ>_ ???

* <+ʧʃʣʤʒ> <+ʦszzz> _

### ADDED
### Sibilant haplology

* <+sz> 0 <+ʦsz>ʰ*V~*_<stress>*V
! *besadzu~ > wesau


### ADDED
### Backing of palatal nasal

* ɲ ŋ _



### Vowel shift

* <+aeiu> ɜ _~
* ~ 0 _
* a ɔ _
* <+ɐəæɪʊ> <+aaɛeɔ> _


### Grassmann's Law

* h ʰ Vː*_C
* ʰ 0 ʦ_
* ʰ 0 Cʷ*_<stress>*V+ː*C*ʷ*ʰ R
* ʰ h Vː*_C


### Fortition of /ɣ/

* ɣɣʷ uɡɡ Cʷ*ʰ*_<stress>*V
* ɣɣ iɡɡ Cʷ*ʰ*_<stress>*V
* ɣʷ uɡ Cʷ*ʰ*_<stress>*V
* ɣ iɡ Cʷ*ʰ*_<stress>*V

### ADDED
* ɣ ɡ #_w
* ɣ 0 #_C


* ɣʷ ɡw #_
* ɣ ɡ #_

* ɣ ː Vː*_ʷ*#

### ADDED
* ɣ ɡ _



### Loss of labialisation

* ʷ 0 _


### Vocalisation of glides

* j i <+eɛ>ː*_C
* j i <+eɛ>_#
* <+jw> <+eu> Vː*_C
* <+jw> <+eu> _#
* <+jw> <+eu> Cʰ*_


### Lenition of velar stops

#* hk ːx Vː*_ʰ*<stress>*V ! not before stressed vowels!
* hk ːx Vː*_ʰ*
* ː 0 _% B
* ʰ 0 x_

* kʰl|kl|kʰʎ|kʎ x _<stress>*V


### ADDED
### Vocalisation of word-final postconsonantal resonants
* C ; %_#
* <+mnŋ> ɜ Cʰ*_#
* <+lʎɹ> <+ɔee> Cʰ*_#
* ; < C_#



### Liquid shift

* l ɾ _
* ɹ ʎ _
* ʎ l _


### Vowel length

* h ː Vː*_C
* h ː Vː*_#
* C ː Vː*_%

### ADDED
* 0 ː Cʰ*ˈV_#

### ADDED
* 0 ; Vː*<+lɾ>_<+lɾ><stress>*V
* <+dlɾ> ː Vː*_<+lɾz>
* ; 0 _

### ADDED
* ʦ s _C


* ː 0 _%
* C 0 #_%

* i ː i_
* e ː e_
* ɛ ː ɛ_
* a ː a_
* ɔ ː ɔ_
* u ː u_


I also tried to formalize some changes leading from your Early Gezoro to the Late Gezoro forms you've given for some sample words. This part is not finished, and I found out that it's impossible to derive all LG sample words with the same set of changes so there must be some dialect borrowing involved, but here's what I got for this:


# Early Gezoro to Late Gezoro
##############################################################################

### Nasal condensation & aspiration

* 0 n ɜː*_<ustop><stress>*V
* 0 ʰ n<ustop>_<stress>*V


### Epenthesis

* 0 ə <+lɾz>_<+lɾz>


### Vowel shift

* V<stress> #2#1 _ B
* ː 0 V_V
* ː 0 VV_

#* ː 0 Cʰ*ˌ*V_#
* ː 0 Cʰ*ˌ*V_L

* ɔ u _ːR
! ɜ~tɔːɾ > enthur
#* ɔ a <stress>_ː

* ɔ o _ː ! jatʰɔː > jathō
* ɔu au ˈ_ ! tʰɔu > thau
* ɔu oː _ ! gɜ~zrɔu > gezoro
* eu oː _
* uɔ oː _

* ɔ a <^stress>u_
* ɔ ɜ <^stress>_C
* ɔ ɜ V_#

#* ɔ ɜ <^stress>_#
* ɔ au ˈ_<vobs>
* ɔ au ˈ_R
* ɔ au ˈ_#
* ɔ o _#

* eɜ ɜː _
* ɔɜ au _
* ɔe ai _

* ɜ a ˈ_ː
* ɜː oi _
* ɜ e _

* ɛi|ei iː _
* ɛ e _ː
* ɛ e V_
* ɛ a _

* ɔ a _

* əCV #3#2#3 _ː
* əCˌV #4#2#3#4 _ː
* VːCə #1#2#3#1 _
* VCCə #1#2#3#1 _
* VCə #1#2#1 _
* ə a _

* ː 0 Cʰ*ˌ*V_#
* ː 0 Cʰ*ˌ*V_L
Here's the wikicode for the preliminary Gezoro lexicon I derived this way:
More: show
''63 words.''

{| {{bluetable|lightbluebg sortable l}}
|-
! word
! PoS
! gloss
! etymology
|-
| da || n || land || [dɔ] ← ''*dłeʔa''
|-
| digos || adj || good || ''*duγa-sV''
|-
| edo || n || lord ||
|-
| enthur || v || cook* || [ɜ̃tɔːr] ← ''*ʔũta-ʔału'' 'smell with tooth = savor'
|-
| gekhoig || n || ore || [kɔkʰeɔk] ← ''*kʰãʔa-kʰeyakʷi'' 'black sand'
|-
| gekhoija || n || mine || (gekhoig + -ja)
|-
| gezor || adj || great, powerful || [gɜ̃zrɔu] ← ''*γãdže-lawV'' 'big people' / [gezrɔu] ← ''*γedže-lawV'' 'running people'
|-
| gwaunkhōs || n || pine-tree(s) || ← ''*γĩwa'' 'pine' + ???
|-
| gwekud || n || eagle || ''*γʷekudu''
|-
| honkhoi || v || masturbate || {{red|/h/ ???}}
|-
| isesigen || n || metallurgy* ||
|-
| jama || n || sun || [jɔma] ← ''*yama''
|-
| jain || n || wine ||
|-
| jairan || adj || drunk || (jain + -ran)
|-
| jathō || n || garden || [jatʰɔː] ← ''*yatʰa-γ'' or ''*yatʰa-wa''
|-
| jaud || adj || old || [jɔd] ← ''*yada-''
|-
| jēŋē || n || uncle ||
|-
| jubleg || n || cheese ||
|-
| kaitja || n || gold || (kait + -ja)
|-
| kasran || adj || friendly || (kats + -ran)
|-
| kats || n || friend || ''*kaca''
|-
| kēx || n || anvil* || ''*kʰełka'' 'stone'
|-
| kuthau || v || steal* ||
|-
| khas || n || dung || [kʰes] ← ''*kʰesa''
|-
| khiŋjara || n || assembly, council || [kʰiŋeɔr] ← *kʰiña-ʔaya-ła 'result of being together'
|-
| khiŋrala || n || poem, composition || ← *kʰiña- 'together'
|-
| khōja || n || grove || (khō + -ja)
|-
| khōnkhai || n || tin ||
|-
| khusram || n || olive ||
|-
| khūtho || n || sweat ||
|-
| lōjaig || n || iron || (lōjai + -g)
|-
| lōjai || n || god ||
|-
| mala || v || shine || [mɔlɛ] ← ''*maše''
|-
| mina || n || mother || ''*mina''
|-
| muhaldim || n || baker || {{red|/h/ ???}}
|-
| nalaror || n || horse || [nɔlrɜ̃l] ← ''*nače-łãši'' 'tamed horse'
|-
| nalaxempha || n || domestic animal || ''*nače-kłepʰã'' 'tamed animal'
|-
| nintha || n || bread ||
|-
| ran || v || do agriculture || [rɔñ] < ''*lalaña'' 'dig'
|-
| ranja || n || field || (ran + -ja)
|-
| rau || n || penis || [rɔ] ← ''*la'' 'man'
|-
| raune || v || own, possess ||
|-
| relek || v || ride || [rɜ̃lɛk] ← ''*łãši-čeka'' 'sit on a horse'
|-
| reso || n || fox ||
|-
| resoran || adj || cunning* || (reso + -ran)
|-
| saignedja || n || village || (saigned + -ja)
|-
| sakits || n || garlic ||
|-
| sēzo || n || hammer || ??? + ''*-dzũ'' 'tool'
|-
| tusran || adj || safe || (tuts + -ran)
|-
| tuts || n || house, home || ''*tuca'' 'house'
|-
| thaislo || n || moon || [tʰɔesleu] ← ''*tʰayaʔu šešewa'' 'milk star'
|-
| thau || v || create, make, do || [tʰɔu] ← ''*tʰawa'' 'bend'
|-
| thed || v || have sex || [tʰɜ̃d] ← ''tʰũdu''
|-
| thedja || n || brothel || (thed + -ja)
|-
| thēran || adj || beautiful, attractive (of people) || (thed + -ran)
|-
| thjakori || top || Tjakori || ← ''*takadłe'' 'grassland' (presumably borrowed from Tjakori)
|-
| thunoi || n || elder brother* || ''*tʰunyaʔã'' 'uncle, brother'
|-
| tsaras || n || dawn || {{green|[cf. Thāras]}}
|-
| tseginig || n || chain ||
|-
| wakhē || adj || holy || ''*bakʰe'' 'holiness'
|-
| waum || v || wait || ''*błama'' 'fart'
|-
| wesau || n || sword || ''*besadzũ'' 'knife'
|-
| zemra || n || copper || ''*dzama-łaγa'' 'red eye'
|-
|}

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by kodé »

Great stuff! Makes me wish I weren't so lazy (a.k.a. busy with real life).
linguoboy wrote:
GrinningManiac wrote:Local pronunciation - /ˈtoʊ.stə/
Ah, so now I know where Towcester pastries originated! Cheers.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

To those in the know:

I was wondering if anyone had developed the Doanu dialect of Lukpanic beyond the examples on the comparison chart. I've been developing a language in the northwest, and it's been bugging me that I've had to draw all my Coastal-Western loanwords from Ishoʻu ʻOhu, when a Doanuan sister would probably make more sense. I figured I might take a crack at developing a far-western Coastal Western language, but I don't want to contradict anybody or step on any toes.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

As far as I know, nobody has done any work on Doanu Lukpanic so far. (I have had some ideas for another Lukpanic dialect, but they don't fit in with the Doanu example words [one of my ideas was palatalisation of *k *g before *i *a, followed by unconditional *kp *gb > k g], so if I get around to doing anything with this, it would need to be spoken somewhere else, probably out west on those islands.) As a result, you're free to develop something for Doanu (or Iəvaku, of course).

And since your main interest seems to be a Coastal Western language, that'd be very cool too!

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by the duke of nuke »

It's lovely to see that progress on Akana continues, and though I've been absent I'd love to get back into it :)

CatDoom: I've certainly not done anything with the Doanu or Iəvaku dialects, and I'm pretty sure the Doanu examples on the Lukpanic languages page aren't set in stone (though it would make sense to follow the gist of them).
I have had some thoughts on a language spoken around the Lukpanic coast in a previous era, Proto-Tulameya, but it's at an early stage and shouldn't be considered canon; if you'd like I could post my notes on lexicon and morphology, and you could derive a daughter to taste. If it's not what you're looking for, no worries.

Dunomapuka's recent work on Huyfárah has also caught my attention, and I'd like to know if people are interested in coordinating or collaborating over the late first and early second century in Huyfarah, Kasca and the lower Eigə. For my part, Woltu Falla still needs some polish. (I also noticed that Yād, gsandi's derivative of Æðadĕ set in the 1600s, has a very similar consonant inventory to Woltu Falla and wondered if there might have been contact involved...)
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

the duke of nuke wrote:I have had some thoughts on a language spoken around the Lukpanic coast in a previous era, Proto-Tulameya, but it's at an early stage and shouldn't be considered canon; if you'd like I could post my notes on lexicon and morphology, and you could derive a daughter to taste. If it's not what you're looking for, no worries.
Sure! That would be great! The exact territory of the ʔuuleoh is fairly nebulous right now, and I've been using an unrelated conlang of mine as a vague substratal influence, but I'm always up for a new source of loanwords!

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by the duke of nuke »

Hi CatDoom - glad you're interested :) I had a look at the main thread here and it looks like the timeline runs, roughly, as follows:

up to -2200 YP: Proto-Tulameya spoken around the western "Lukpanic coast" and associated inland area; (?late) Pre-Proto-Lukpanic spoken on the northwest coast
up to -2000 YP: Early Lukpanic peoples move south along the coast. They encounter Tulameya garden agriculturalists, whose language begins to heavily influence their own
from -1500 YP: Lukpanic Coast is now truly Lukpanic, with coastal Tulameya assimilated or displaced. Early city-states appear.

It would make sense to me that the Lukpanab, through the late third millennium, became increasingly adept at exploiting the littoral and its resources, rather than the more land-oriented Tulameya. At any rate, you have the option of your substrate being either one of the far-western Lukpanic dialects, a member of another Pre-Proto-Lukpanic branch, or one of the Tulameya languages.

Speaking of which: the preliminary lexicon of 99 words (almost all nouns) is up, and the page is now moved to its own location: http://akana.conlang.org/wiki/Proto-Tulameya. The general direction I have for Proto-Tulameya should by now be fairly clear. It's got a moderately simple phonology and morphophonology. Roots are mostly disyllabic, although some are one or three syllables. It's strongly prefixing, and lightly agglutinative (words will probably have one or two prefixes at most; compounding should be moderately common).
Gramatically I've not defined much, but the following are features:
  • Words often can function as more than one part of speech. For instance the name Tulameya comes from tula "sun" and meya "down, below"; if it were *meyatula that would mean "under the sun" as meya would function as a preposition, but in this case means something like "low sun" or "setting sun".
  • Tulameya is secundative, like Yoruba and for that matter Proto-Lukpanic: it has a nominative case for subjects, a primative (hope that's the right name!) for monotransitive objects and for ditransitive indirect objects (themes), and a secundative for ditransitive direct objects (recipients).
  • The cases are marked by prefixing; prepositions are frequently used as prefixes on an unmarked noun, creating something like a series of locative cases.
The lexicon needs filling out, especially with adjectives and verbs. Please feel free to add to it!

If there are glaring issues or inconsistencies, please let me know and we can work out how to tackle them.

Dunomapuka: I'd be interested to see your work on Pre-Proto-Lukpanic, as it might well inform progress in this area. I understand that it does predate ʔuuleomoh considerably but it'd be great to get more of the "bigger picture". :)
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by dunomapuka »

the duke of nuke wrote:Dunomapuka: I'd be interested to see your work on Pre-Proto-Lukpanic, as it might well inform progress in this area. I understand that it does predate ʔuuleomoh considerably but it'd be great to get more of the "bigger picture". :)
I'm struggling to come up with a less clumsy name than "Pre-Proto-Lukpanic." Not feeling "Macro-Lukpanic" either, I want to avoid the name "Lukpanic" altogether.

Maybe Paic (pronounced "pay-ic") -- referring to Pai, or Mother Earth.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

One option would be to simply use a geographical term, like "Littoral" or "Coast-Woodland" or something. Another would be to name the macro-family after a noteworthy cognate found across many of the related languages, as in the case of the irl "Utian" languages, which are named for the word "uti," meaning "two," which is found in various forms in several Miwok and Costanoan languages.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

So here's a bit of an odd question; has anyone ever written up a description of the star system Akana occupies? I've searched the wiki, and all I could discover is that there are, in fact, other planets in the system, since they're mentioned in the article on the Etúgə.

Rest assured that I'm not trying to shoehorn sci-fi elements into the setting; rather, I'm working on a conculture that places a great deal of stock in astrology, and I'd like to develop names for any planets observable from Akana with the naked eye.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by the duke of nuke »

Just about everything established is in on the wiki's Ndak Calendar page. There's further discussion in a small number of other places, though. You could trawl through the older Cursed Relay thread, but I recommend having a look at the wiki page on Anaitism and the forum threads on astronomy, creation myths, and mathematics.

I am certainly interested in planets and would be happy to help or provide input. On the other hand I won't object to what you come up with as long as it's realistic and interesting :)
Points to bear in mind are that the moon is more distant (it orbits more slowly than ours but is big enough to create eclipses) and Akana's year is slightly longer than ours (although its overall climate is comparable to Earth), so most likely Akana's sun is slightly more distant but also slightly brighter and probably hotter. It should be possible to run the numbers to get a realistic size for the sun and orbital distance of Akana itself - I have some old calculators for that somewhere...

EDIT: I am reminded that the Akanaran day might not be the same length as ours (perhaps it is slightly shorter). The above still applies, though: the month is 50% longer than our own while the year is about 5% longer, so the ratio of Akana-moon to Akana-sun distances is presumably larger than the ratio of Earth-moon to Earth-sun distances.
Also, if the moon is a bit larger than ours, could it be more selenologically interesting than ours? Maybe with ice caps, volcanoes, etc. like Mars or the Galilean moons... (a bit "out there" perhaps, but not implausible).
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by the duke of nuke »

I realise this a double post, but I've done the maths and have come up with some interesting conclusions. I believe it's already established that Akana is the same mass as the Earth and receives roughly the same amount of heat from its sun. It is definitely established that the solar year is 384.1 days long and the month is 44.96 days.

First off, we can make the day as long or as short as we want within reason, but I've decided on two basic starting points: an Akanaran synodic day the same length as ours, or an Akanaran year the same length as ours. (Synodic is the motion or period relative to the sun, while sidereal is the motion or period relative to the "fixed stars".) All of these calculations assume circular orbits - I can account for eccentricity if we want, though.

With an Akanaran synodic day the same as ours, at 24 hours:
- The year is about 5% longer than ours.
- To receive the same amount of solar radiation, Akana will orbit a G1 star marginally brighter and hotter than ours. Its orbital distance is 1.047 AU, and the apparent diameter of the sun is about 3% less.
- The moon orbits at a distance of 496150 km to keep the synodic month the right length.

With an Akanaran year the same length as ours:
- The synodic day is about 5% shorter than ours, at 22 hours 49 minutes 21 seconds (to the nearest second).
- The moon orbits at 479787 km.

Either way some things are apparent about the moon.
- In order to cause total eclipses, the moon must be 4497 km across (4466 km for the latter case) at a bare minimum, probably more like 5000 km. This puts it in the league of Solar System objects like Callisto (4820 km), Mercury (4879 km), Titan (5152 km), and Ganymede (5262 km).
- If we went for an example of 5000 km diameter, and a density of 3300 g/cc like our own moon, it would have a mass of 0.036 times the Earth (or Akana), very close to three times the mass of our moon. (Yes, Callisto, Titan, and Ganymede are much less dense, but they're icy. Mercury is much more dense because it's largely iron. I think Earth's Moon, Io, and possibly Europa and Mars are better models for a mostly rocky body, indicating a density between 3000 and 4000 g/cc.)
- Tidal forces would be strong. This is mitigated by the greater distance to the moon (inverse squares means that the relative strength of gravitational attraction compared to our Earth-Moon system is 60% for the first scenario and 64% for the second). However, even in the first scenario and with a 0.036 Earth-mass moon, tidal forces would be 80% greater than those exerted on Earth by our Moon.

It's a cool scenario, but noticeably different from Earth... :)


And on the planets, there are some interesting possibilities:
- Large inner-system planets, by which I mean "hot Neptunes/Jupiters/super-earths". Apparently these can form in a system with Earth-like planets. The upshot would be one or more very bright "evening/morning stars" like Venus but more so, and a greater opportunity for astronomers to study transits, phases of planets, and so on.
- Orbital resonances of visible planets. These are just really cool all round, allowing for planets that show up in highly predictable places and intervals, ripe for symbolic interpretation.
- I also note that Tsinakan was, at least by the third century, identified with a predictable 43-year comet. I wonder what non-Ndok make of it...
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

Hmm... I was under the impression that gas giants that close to a star had most likely migrated from a more distant orbit, meaning that it likely would have disrupted rocky planet formation to some degree and "swept up" some of the matter from which planets might form. Remember also that the gravity of Jupiter is apparently responsible for preventing the asteroid belt from forming into a single larger mass, and the distance between the middle of the Asteroid belt and Jupiter seems to be (if I'm looking at the diagram right) roughly similar to the distance between the belt and the sun.

Admittedly, I'm no astrophysicist, and there's apparently not that much mass in the asteroid belt (Wikipedia says it only has 4% the mass of the moon, in total), so maybe a bigger ball of planet-stuff would be less disrupted by a nearby giant, especially if it was a relatively small one rather a behemoth like Jupiter.

One option I've considered is using the tables in GURPS Space to randomly generate a star system. It would be easier to do so now that you've worked out the rough properties of the star and Akana's orbital distance for me. I've often found that generating a few setting elements at random provides a wellspring of new ideas I wouldn't otherwise have considered.

Edit:

So here's a bare-bones rundown of a system I came up with using said random tables. Note that these numbers are based on pretty rough math, so I'm sure someone smarter than me could refine them for extra verisimilitude.

I'm assuming here that the Akanan year is 384.1 Akanan days lonng, and Akana's sun (henceforth "Tol") is of similar mass and roughly similar age to our own, but has a luminosity of about 1.096 suns. Based on the calculations I have immediately available, that would let Akana be at about the same temperature as the earth at a distance of 1.047.

The names I've assigned the planets are mostly for my convenience and aren't meant to reflect anything about the culture of the Empire of Athalē.

The Tolar System:

Tol 1 ("Alizadu")

The object nearest Tol, at a distance of 0.1610 AU, is a Chthonian planet, the remains of a small gas giant that has had most of its mass stripped away as a result of its proximity to the star. The resulting solid core has a radius 1.265 times that of Akana (or earth), though it may be significantly denser. Zarā is tide-locked to Tol, with the day side reaching a mean temperature in excess of 825 K while the night side regularly experiences temperatures below 69 K, and it's orbital period is 23.6 Akanan days.

The Asteroid Belt

A narrow belt of debris separates Tol 1 from Tol 2

Tol 2 ("Zarā")

At a distance of 0.4653 AU, Anaitī is best imagined as a hotter, drier Venus, with a superdense atmosphere of carbon dioxide creating a runaway greenhouse effect that keeps the surface temperature high enough to melt rock. Anaitī has a radius 0.8718 times that of Akana, and an orbital period of 115.9 Akanan days.

Tol 3 ("Zilūa")

Orbiting at 0.6980 AU, Tol 3 is the closest object to Akana aside from her moon. Zilūa is an airless rock somewhat smaller than Mercury, with a radius .3088 times that of Akana and an orbital period of 213.0 Akanan days.

Tol 4 is akana

Tol 5

Tol 5 is a rocky planetoid orbiting at a distance of 1.604 AU. With a diameter .006822 times that of Akana, it is significantly smaller than Earth's moon, and I'm not sure that it would be visible from Akana without the aid of a telescope. It has an orbital period of 742 days.

Tol 6 ("Xaxō")

Orbiting at a distance of 2.405 AU, Aiūnaka is a frozen planet with a thin atmosphere of Nitrogen and Carbon Dioxide. With a radius .6133 times that of Akana it's larger than Mars, but is also somewhat colder, with a mean surface temperature of 183.0 K. It has an orbital period of 1,362 Akanan days.

Tol 7

Orbiting at a distance of 4.331 AU, Tol 7 is a ball of ice in between Zilūa and Tol 5 in size, with a radius .3328 times that of Akana. Again, I'm not certain if this would be visible on Akana. It has an orbital period of 3,292 days.

Tol 8 and 9 ("Anaitī" and "Aiūnaka")

Anaitī and Aiūnaka, orbiting at 7.363 AU and 12.52 AU, respectively, are gas giants of roughly similar size, each having a radius about ten times that of Akana and about 200 times the mass. This places them about halfway between Saturn and Jupiter in size. Their orbital periods are 7,298 days and 16,180 days, respectively.

Tol 10 and 11

These are a pair of very small gas giants with only 2.876 times the diameter of Akana and 10 times the mass apiece. Orbiting at 20.03 AU and 28.04 AU, respectively, with orbital periods of 32,740 and 54,230 days, I would imagine that these aren't visible from Akana with the naked eye.

---

So what do you guys think?

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by the duke of nuke »

You have some rather interesting ideas there! I think that combining random methods (e.g. GURPS tables, StarGen, IFOS) with some degree of deliberate selection will give the best results.

Comments on the example you've generated:

- Are you using an Akanaran day the same length as ours? We know there are 384.1 Akanaran synodic days in their year.
- Planets #5, #7, #10, #11, and the asteroid belt would be effectively invisible with the naked eye. For this reason they're not very interesting from a conworlding point of view until Akana develops substantial telescopes, probably the third millennium. #6 and #9 would also be quite dim. (I've calculated the rough apparent magnitudes for them based on likely albedos; the more negative, the brighter.)
- A chthonian planet might not be visible either, as it would be very close to Tol in the sky and so "drowned out" by sunlight - especially at superior conjunction (with Tol between it and Akana) when it would be brightest. This is already a problem with Mercury at 0.4 AU.

- The above would mean your example had five planets visible to the naked eye:
#2 would be bright (brighter than any star, and a little brighter than Venus) just before dawn and just after dusk, and invisible at other times. Apparent magnitude ~ -4.5.
#3 would be another morning and evening star, but dimmer (althoughstill within the 20 or so brightest stars). Apparent magnitude ~ +1.
#6 would be about the same brightness at maximum, dimmer (within top 200 stars) when nearer the sun, but would be visible more often and show retrograde motion. Apparent magnitude ~ +1 ~ +3.
#8 would be in the dozen brightest stars, comparable to Saturn, and show retrograde motion. Apparent magnitude ~ 0 ~ +0.5.
#9 would be around the brightness of the top 100 stars. Apparent magnitude ~ +2.5.
For reference, Halley's Comet has an apparent magnitude that varies between -2 and +2 (perhaps a good model for the Tsinakan comet). The brightest star in our sky is Sirius, at -1.47.


Now, I like the characteristics of #2, and if we make #3 a bit bigger we could have the appealing option of two quite bright "morning and evening" stars. The existense of a chthonian planet (like #1) and asteroid/debris belt also work for me as they allow for Akanarans to study transits once they have basic optical equipment, perhaps second millennium; if the innermost planet were a little bigger/further out this would be easier.
(I've read that gas giants can move to the inner part of a planetary system with terrestrials forming in their wake, so the existence of Akana isn't a reason not to include them.)

I think the outer system could be made more interesting, though. If we have an outer terrestrial planet larger or nearer (around the 1.5-2 AU mark) than your #5 or #6 it gives us a nice visible planet showing retrograde motion; perhaps an icy or cloudy planet and maybe a super-earth. Gas giants are always good, and your #8 and #9 seem like decent models - though I still like the idea of a 1:2 or 2:3 orbital resonance.


I feel this could do with some input from other members of the project as there's opportunity here to provide some interesting scenarios for conworlding, espeically the cultural implications of the planets.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by CatDoom »

Thanks for the analysis! I absolutely agree that we should get some input from anybody who's interested. I put this together purely as a jumping-off point, so any changes that would make it more interesting are fine by me. I like the idea of having two bright, Venus-like morning/evening stars, and it would be nice to have a more visible, fast-moving Mercury-like planet.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by the duke of nuke »

:) Mm, certainly. Your example actually gives #2 and #3 very similar orbital parameters to Mercury and Venuis respectively, just that the Mercury analogue would be much brighter.

(And on a cultural note - apparently early Greek culture identified "morning" and "evening" Mercury and Venus as different bodies, Apollo and Phosphorus in the morning and Hermes and Hesperus in the evening, respectively. The Baylonians and Chinese don't seem to have had the same confusion, though.)
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