Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Pole, the »

Vidurnaktis wrote:So, uhh, I broke the tables on my lang's page and was wondering if anyone with a better grasp of coding than me could fix it. http://akana.conlang.org/wiki/Northeast ... l_Pronouns Danke. :(
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by WeepingElf »

What is a definite/indefinite distinction doing in 1st and 2nd person pronouns? What is the difference between 'a you' and 'the you'?
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Zju »

WeepingElf wrote:What is a definite/indefinite distinction doing in 1st and 2nd person pronouns? What is the difference between 'a you' and 'the you'?
Taking a blind guess here, maybe focus/topic?
An interesting concept, to have the same morphological markers mark def/indef in nouns and adjectives, but focus/topic in pronouns. Perhaps not very stable, though.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Pole, the »

WeepingElf wrote:What is a definite/indefinite distinction doing in 1st and 2nd person pronouns? What is the difference between 'a you' and 'the you'?
Maybe, considering that definiteness can have a plenty of interpretations, it is something along the lines “me, a human ~ me, incidentally” vs “me, the human ~ me and only me”?
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Vijay »

My guess is "one of you" versus "you, specific person." :P

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by communistplot »

Pole, the wrote:
Vidurnaktis wrote:So, uhh, I broke the tables on my lang's page and was wondering if anyone with a better grasp of coding than me could fix it. http://akana.conlang.org/wiki/Northeast ... l_Pronouns Danke. :(
Is it ok now?
Yes danke.

WeepingElf wrote:What is a definite/indefinite distinction doing in 1st and 2nd person pronouns? What is the difference between 'a you' and 'the you'?
It's used as a politeness marker. Using the indefinite form is considered more polite and thus more used when talking to someone higher in station than you, like a village priestess. It also shows humility when referring to oneself using the indefinite form. On the second person it also has the meaning of you in specific and you in general for the definite and indefinite forms respectively.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Travis B. »

Vidurnaktis wrote:On the second person it also has the meaning of you in specific and you in general for the definite and indefinite forms respectively.
That only makes sense in the plural. How can one have a 2nd person singular referent which isn't definite - unless the "2nd person indefinite" isn't really 2nd person to begin with, and is akin to the indefinite use of the 2nd person singular in English?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by communistplot »

I guess the easiest way to explain it is that the indefinite singular acts like a singulative, that is, it represents one (out of a group).
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Zju »

I'm in the process of finalising the Áżädgä lexicon, but never really got the hang of the setting, so I'm asking for help. Which of these objects and concepts exist or could exist in Western Tuysáfa during 0 YP?
More: show

chimney
girder, plank
ball
piglet
canoe
saddle
chair
boat
sail of a boat
angle
palm
brick
window
spade
sickle, scythe
scorpion
hare
rat
wool
pear
wagon, vehicle
jacket
ship
money
chisel
circle
farm
dominion
donkey, wild equine
date
column
daisy
monkey
toad
alcohol
smithing, forging
canyon
horserider
caster, moulder, smelter
plower, plowman
plateau
stork
lemon
horse
bread
cherry
deer
dune
fox
rabbit
owl
pig
goose
walnut
cow
blacksmith
bee
gingko
cockroach
goat
hawk
plaza
jackal
carrot
bean
viper
puma
wolf
bear
pony
sparrow
adder
catfish
salamander
mole
small
otter
foal
fawn, doe
lamb
vixen
ladybug
gosling
calf
duckling
badger
pelican
heron
turtle
savana, rare forest
clam
swamp
jellyfish
falcon
ox
hound
hart, buck
raven
rooster, cock
spirits, liquors
bumblebee
emperor
mug, vessel
statue
cat
glacier
ocean
strawberry
leech
lamb
advisor
ferment
dentist
shepherd
locksmith
sunflower
swordman
poultry
beef
ride a horse
sail a river
sail a sea
pork

What strikes me is the large size of maritime vocabulary of all Leic languages. Perhaps there's a large river in Western Tuysáfa that leads to the sea to the South, which they use to trade with all sorts of different people?

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

There are certainly a few rivers in the Leic region, but I'm not sure about how big they could be - the inland areas are fairly dry, and the main river running west from the Ural-like mountain range turns north towards Ronquian territory.

As for the vocabulary, have a look here:
More: show

chimney
girder, plank
ball
piglet
canoe
saddle (doubtful)
chair
boat
sail of a boat
angle
palm
brick
window (yes, but not with a glass pane)
spade
sickle, scythe
scorpion
hare
rat
wool
pear
wagon, vehicle (yes, but not with wheels - some Ronquian languages therefore have the definition 'travois, sledge' for the corresponding concept)
jacket
ship
money (doubtful)
chisel
circle
farm
dominion
donkey, wild equine
date
column
daisy
monkey
toad
alcohol (more likely: names for a few specific alcoholic drinks, but no general term)
smithing, forging
canyon (better: 'valley')
horserider (doubtful)
caster, moulder, smelter (unlikely as profession names, but the activities are known)
plower, plowman (unlikely as a profession name, but the activity is known)
plateau
stork
lemon
horse
bread
cherry
deer
dune
fox
rabbit
owl
pig
goose
walnut
cow
blacksmith
bee
gingko
cockroach
goat
hawk
plaza
jackal
carrot (not native to Tuysáfa)
bean
viper
puma
wolf
bear
pony
sparrow
adder
catfish
salamander
mole
small
otter
foal
fawn, doe
lamb
vixen
ladybug
gosling
calf
duckling
badger
pelican
heron
turtle
savana, rare forest
clam
swamp
jellyfish
falcon
ox
hound
hart, buck
raven
rooster, cock
spirits, liquors
bumblebee
emperor (doubtful; the early West Tuysáfa states are probably small kingdoms rather than large empires)
mug, vessel
statue
cat
glacier (unlikely; the climate is warm and the mountains aren't that high)
ocean
strawberry
leech
lamb
advisor
ferment
dentist (very unlikely)
shepherd
locksmith (unlikely as a separate profession)
sunflower
swordman
poultry
beef
ride a horse (doubtful)
sail a river
sail a sea
pork
wheel (definitely not known in Tuysáfa at this time)

A few of the animals and/or plants probably don't occur natively in Tuysáfa, but most of them could. Maybe do a quick search for them on the wiki, and if you only find the word in languages from Peilaš, the species probably doesn't exist in Tuysáfa.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Frislander »

Can I just put some information on my Tuysáfa (proto-)lang here, because the forum seems to be a bit dead. It's meant to be spoken close to and in contact with Ronquian (and indeed already has a few Ronquian loans in it) and is mildly agglutinating with head marking on the verbs.

Phonemes

/t ʈ t͡ɕ k kʷ/ <<t tr c k kw>>
/tʰ ʈʰ t͡ɕʰ kʰ kʷʰ/ <<th trh ch kh khw>>
/d ɖ d͡ʑ g gʷ/ <<d dr j g gw>>
/s ʂ ɕ h/ <<s sr x h>>
/n~ŋ/ <<n>>
/l j w/ <<l y w>>

The alveolar nasal is realised as a velar nasal when adjacent to velars and before a pause.

/i ɛ ə u ɑ/ <<i e ə u a>>

The vowels bar the schwa may appear in long or short (long is denoted by a macron). Also, if a schwa would appear before another vowel for any reason it is deleted.

Phonotactics: (C)V(t,k,n,l,s)

The coda stops allophonically assimilate in voicing to the following consonant.

Nominal morphology

Nouns have a base case of absolutive and may take one of three other case prefixes: ergative (sə-), instrumental (kwa-) and locative (nun-).

kwacēnal
INST-spear
With (the) spear

nunlāsru
LOC-hut
In (the) hut

Nouns may also take possessive prefixes when the possessor is an SAP: these take the forms:

Code: Select all

    SING DUAL  PLUR
1st ja-  jaja- jūk-
2nd ne-  nene- nīk-
negwenda
2.POSS-meal
Your meal

jajahānda
1.POSS.DU-story
The two of us' story

When both case prefixes and possessive prefixes occur on a noun, the possessive prefixes come first.

watənak nīksəlemak
1.ABS-TRA.PST-hit 2.POSS.PL-ERG-shaman
Your shaman hit/cursed me!
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Zju »

Cedh wrote:There are certainly a few rivers in the Leic region, but I'm not sure about how big they could be - the inland areas are fairly dry, and the main river running west from the Ural-like mountain range turns north towards Ronquian territory.
Is there a map of the rivers somewhere? The Akana wiki certainly doesn't have one.

Re professions, they rather name temporary occupations, like a person who drives a car is a driver even though he doesn't work as one.
Can I just put some information on my Tuysáfa (proto-)lang here, because the forum seems to be a bit dead.
You could also post it in the Akana wiki.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Frislander »

Who's working on the Eigə-Isthmus, Hitatc and !Ho languages right now? There doesn't seem to be that much on either family on the wiki: is that intentional?
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

Frislander wrote:Who's working on the Eigə-Isthmus, Hitatc and !Ho languages right now? There doesn't seem to be that much on either family on the wiki: is that intentional?
!Ho was introduced by Radius, but he never published much about the family (apart from a few words and a phonology that's buried somewhere in the Cursed Relay thread). The whole Xšali sphere was basically considered his personal domain; I'm not sure if that might change now that he's not an active contributor anymore.

Somewhat similarly, the Hitatc family was sketched out by me a couple of years ago, but I never did much with it. I have a couple of correspondences with its supposedly closest relative Proto-Peninsular laid out, and a few sound changes within the family too, but only a very rough draft of the protolang. I'm up for collaboration on this family though, and/or willing to hand it over to someone who's interested. Also see this thread on the Akana forum, especially my posts from 2013 (starting here).
(Proto-Hitatc might actually be a good project for you if you call your own style "'historically aware' rather than 'historically based'".)

The situation for Eigə-Isthmus is a bit different. There, what is known about the protolanguage has been reconstructed from the supposed daughters, which were little more than names (Ngauro, Meshi), wordlists (Miwan) or naming languages (Faraghin). The reconstruction was a group project, but a central role was played by Corumayas. He's not regularly active anymore, but he seems to be still reading news about Akana, and might be interested in reviving Eigə-Isthmus. In any case, he probably has some additional material that's neither on the wiki nor in the forum thread yet. Also, Thedukeofnuke has published the beginnings of a grammar sketch of Meshi, which is based on the reconstructed material (but doesn't go much beyond it). It's probably a good idea to try and talk to the two of them if you want to do something in the family. Since so little about Eigə-Isthmus grammar is known at this point, it would actually be great to get more input and creativity though (as long as that's in line with the existing material, of course).

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Frislander »

Cedh wrote:Somewhat similarly, the Hitatc family was sketched out by me a couple of years ago, but I never did much with it. I have a couple of correspondences with its supposedly closest relative Proto-Peninsular laid out, and a few sound changes within the family too, but only a very rough draft of the protolang. I'm up for collaboration on this family though, and/or willing to hand it over to someone who's interested. Also see this thread on the Akana forum, especially my posts from 2013 (starting here).
(Proto-Hitatc might actually be a good project for you if you call your own style "'historically aware' rather than 'historically based'".)
I might be willing to take it on, but there's a bit of a problem with that. My taste in phonology is for the smaller end, and if I want to go big I'll go full-out with ejectives and such like. I avoid having a voicing distinction in the stops unless either 1. there's a third distinction on top of that (see Proto-Muyan for an example)or 2. there are holes or asymmetries (e.g. /p b t k/ or /b t (d) k/). Voiceless nasals are nifty, but I haven't used them before, and I find my interest in phonology to be more in what's missing that what's there.

I also prefer if at all possible to have some form of polypersonalism in my languages, though I'm OK with pronominal clitics, so since these don't seem to be present in the proto-lang I'd be less inclined to take over responsibility for it.

The same points appear to apply for Eigə-Isthmus as well.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

I'm totally with you in terms of aesthetics. And since very little about the Hitatc family is set in stone, you could definitely change things according to your taste, as long as the historical context still makes sense.

A smaller phoneme inventory doesn't actually seem unlikely, as (a) none of the "attested" words from Hitatc languages contains a voiced obstruent, and (b) Proto-Hitatc's closest relative Proto-Peninsular has only 13 consonants with no voicing distinction and 3 vowels. However, the correspondences between PPI and PHtc shouldn't be too obvious, that's why I've been thinking more along the lines of Proto-Tæm-Hou *pʰ tʰ cʰ kʰ qʰ > PHtc *p t c k q but PPI *f s ç h x in most positions, and PTH *p t c k q > PHtc *b d ɟ g ʁ but PPI *p t t k k.

As for polypersonalism, PPI doesn't have participant marking on the verb at all, and since PHtc must be the more conservative language for chronological reasons (it's spoken about 1500 years before PPI and probably only 500 years after the latest common ancestor language), it probably shouldn't have verbal participant marking either. Pronominal clitics might be okay though if they're not yet too tightly bound, and may of course further grammaticalise into full polypersonal marking in the later Hitatc languages.

I'll have a look at my notes about these languages and see if I can condense them into an up-to-date summary for you.

(According to my latest understanding, there are no true voiceless nasals in PHtc anymore, but rather hN clusters, which are supposed to yield nasal reflexes in Eastern Hitatc but voiceless fricatives in Western Hitatc.)

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Arzena »

Has it been worked out how the Peninsular languages spread? I had an inclination to put a few loanwords from that family into my never ending revisions of Shtasa but I don't know which Peninsular language I should trace the origins to.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Corumayas »

Hmm. Peninsular languages aren't spoken close to the Shtåså homeland – the Mrisaŋfa Peninsula is pretty far to the east. But I suppose they could come into contact at the height of the Anheshnalåks' empire; or maybe loans could be passed through an in-between language (such as Xšali).

The Peninsular family is supposed to have a major isogloss running from northwest to southeast along the Peninsula; northeast of this line are the Ehlaut languages, while southwest of it are the Äschlaut languages.
Zhen Lin, in the [url=http://zhenlin.nfshost.com/akana/proto-peninsular/proto-peninsular.html]Proto-Peninsular grammar[/url], wrote:The Äschlaut group is characterised by a sibilant reflex for Proto-Peninsular */ç/, such as [ʃ] or [ɕ], as well as a uvular pronunciation of */r/; the Ehlaut group, on the other hand, may be thought of as the branches which did not have Äschlaut characteristics.
Of the described daughters, Lotoka, Kibülʌiṅ, and Vylessa are Ehlaut, while Gaadràmarneš (which is said to be spoken in the southwest of the Peninsula) is Äschlaut. Merneha doesn't appear to quite fit in either group – it has velar or uvular fricatives for both *ç and *r – but it could be an Äschlaut language that has backed its earlier *[ʃ] to [x].

So I think the most westerly Peninsular languages must be Gaadràmarneš and Merneha. (Gaadràmarneš is spoken a few centuries later than Shtåså, around -100 YP, so you should probably undo the last block or two of sound changes before you borrow any words from it.)

(If you just wanted some non-inherited vocabulary, though, it might actually be more realistic to just invent it a priori; there are probably lots of languages in the Xšali region that haven't been described yet, and that would be more likely sources of borrowing than Peninsular.)


Incidentally, I'm still tinkering with Eigǝ-Isthmus, and hope to post some minor revisions to the wiki soonish...
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Arzena »

Thanks for the insightful post, Corumayas. An in-between language lines up with what I was planning. The loan words wouldn't be many; I'm thinking they would be for foods and goods new to the Anheshnalaks as a result of their migration to the south. I'm also thinking of a biography for an Ibn-Battuta / Marco Polo epic traveller who travels the length of the Peninsula and the Xshali Empire.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Corumayas »

Sounds interesting! It's really too bad that Radius never got around to describing the Xšali sphere in much detail.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Cedh »

@Arzena:

What Corumayas said. Except that I've always considered Merneha an Ehlaut language too, and assumed it would be spoken on the northeastern side of the peninsula. In any case, it is grammatically closer to Kibülʌin than to any other described Peninsular language, and IIRC Kib even has a couple of loanwords from Merneha.

Also, you could easily create yet another Peninsular language which moves further into Xšali territory yourself, even if it is sketchy. If you do that, it might be a good idea to share a few early sound changes with Gaadramarneš.



@Frislander:

Sorry for taking so long, but here's a small summary. Basically, most of the things you need to know about the Hitatc family are (written or linked) in the forum thread, but not everything in the forum thread is relevant:

Post 1:
- Phoneme inventory of Pirikõsu: Valid, but don't worry about that; I can always rederive it.
- Family tree: Valid, except that Proto-Tæm-Hou and Proto-Hitatc might have been spoken a bit later than described there.
- Design goals: The first two points are not valid anymore (noun classes and case), but the third and fourth points are (verbal morphology and reduplication). The profiles for Pirikõsu and Ktacwa are still valid too, but the profile for Proto-Hitatc may change - except that there's a new design goal to make it demonstrably related to Proto-Peninsular.

Post 16:
- This post contains all known Hitatc loanwords in other languages, which must remain valid.

Post 18:
- This post sums up my latest plans for Proto-Hitatc grammar. All listed morphemes have cognates in Proto-Peninsular.
- The phonology is not necessarily final, but changing it would mean that new PHtc :: PPI correspondences would have to be worked out.

Post 23:
- Contains some thoughts about my latest vision of the correspondences. (I have more detail on my local computer; I can post that too if you're interested.)

Post 29:
- Contains the imagined PPI cognates for the PHtc morphemes mentioned in the sketch grammar in post 18.

Everything else in the thread can safely be ignored. There are a few small ideas I'd still like to use, but they're really not that important. Also, everything on the wiki except for the broad historical context and the phonology of Pirikõsu (and to a lesser extent the phonology of Ktacwa) can safely be ignored too.

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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Frislander »

I'm busy right now (university applications and stuff), but I do have a few ideas. Firstly, unless anyone else knows an easy way of deriving ejectives, we might posit that the original contrast was plain-ejective corresponding to what is currently unvoiced-voiced. The contrast can be lost in most of the daughters with ejectives becoming plain stops, including Proto-Penninsular (with additional changes to even out the phoneme frequencies), but not Ktacwa. This would be like Akana's own glottalic theory, though one or more of the daughters preserves the ejectives.

Edit: further idea: a sprachbund encompassing Pirikõsu, some Penninsular languages, perhaps Miwan and a divergent Fáralo dialect/daughter.

The other small idea was with the verb template - move the 'location' markers into the preverbs.
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Re: Akana Conlang Relay 2011 (The Never Ending Relay)

Post by Rajavritra »

Hello, I think this is the right place for me to introduce myself?

I'm Rajavlitra from the akanaforums, I'm currently focused on the development of the Omishiman islands with Thedukeofnuke.

Hope I'd jump in to see what's up.
Arr:
vlitramonster.tumblr.com
vlitramonster.deviantart.com

Worldbuilding:
adiaproject.miraheze.org

dendana
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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by dendana »

Hello everyone! First of all, I just want to say that Akana is an amazing collabworld! There are so many highly-developed languages and such attention to detail, and I've been admiring it from a distance for a long time. It really has a lot of very unique aesthetics as well.

I wanted to contribute to Akana, so I'm creating a descendant of Buruya Nzaysa called Vuuyin Zayxa [ʋúujɨ̃ zájʃǝ], if that's okay. (The name is cognate with Buruya Nzaysa, because I think the language is associated with influence from Buruya, as opposed to influence from former Huyfárah.) It will be situated in the river valley north of Buruya in about 1300-1500 YP. Does the river have a name?

I am planning to include a lot of influence from (Southern) Fáralo and its descendant Namɨdu, as well as Ndok Aisô and Naidda at an earlier stage, and Æðadĕ at a later stage.

My guess is that during the rule of Huyfárah over the river valley, Buruya Nzaysa and Fáralo were both in use, and the form of Buruya Nzaysa spoken there probably converged in grammar to Fáralo to some extent. After Huyfárah no longer governed the region, the post-Buruya Nzaysa language probably began to diverge significantly due to the reduced contact with the outside.

I created my userpage on the wiki here, and I'm beginning to work on the documentation for Vuuyin Zayxa there as well. Maybe I'll create a thread here on the ZBB about it some time too.

Some features I am including in Vuuyin Zayxa are:
  • Development of sandhi where word-final vowels are nasalized before voiced stops, nasals, and fricatives.
  • Glottalized and nasalized vowels which interact with a pitch-accent system.
  • Part of Buruya Nzaysa's complex auxiliary system is reinterpreted as a set of absolutive pronouns that decline for aspect.
  • Other auxiliaries are treated as prefixes on the verb.
  • The topic determiner becomes an ergative proclitic.
  • Numbers over 3 have been borrowed from Fáralo.
I would love to hear what you all think of Vuuyin Zayxa, and what else I might want to keep in mind as I continue to build it! Thanks!

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Arzena
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Re: Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

Post by Arzena »

Hi dendana, your language is spoken to the northwest and is a contemporary of Wippwo, a daughter of Naidda that I've created!

According to Zompist's rough notes (he was in charge of Wippwo before I took it over from him), a trading republic a la Venice developed in the Kasca delta that spoke Wippwo, making it a domineering language of sorts for its time. Of course, this is Akana, and so our timelines are more wibbly-wobbly rather than set in stone. I'm interested to see what you do with Vuuyin Zayxa!
A New Yorker wrote:Isn't it sort of a relief to talk about the English Premier League instead of the sad state of publishing?
Abi wrote:At this point it seems pretty apparent that PIE was simply an ancient esperanto gone awry.
Shtåså, Empotle7á, Neire Wippwo

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