Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

[zompist]

The -ud words Faralo borrowed are rantud, fisrantud, sempud, magacud, khislud, rotud. Should these now be -od in Faralo as well? (or -o; khislud and rotud were borrowed without the final -d)

Hmm, I didn't assign stress for Faraghin, but I think I'll say it's always initial, which fits in with Faralo. That puts the -od very often in the third syllable, and I'll say that allophonically it becomes -ud.

But, you say, not all of those words are three syllables! Indeed; so in Faraghin we'd have rantod / fisrantud.

The Faralo don't necessarily reproduce all the variations-- the o/u distinction isn't allophonic to them, so they'd prefer it one way or the other, and they go with -ud. But to introduce some interesting variation, let's say they have hislo and rodo instead of hislu/rodu.

[Corumayas]

I have a few responses to the maps cedh posted. First: I'm worried about Akelodo/Akeladada being so close to the border of the empire; it seems awfully vulnerable. If I were Te:mekas II, I'd probably try to annex as much territory north and east of that river angle as I could; at the least I'd occupy the eastern bank of the E:za across from the city. Probably the borders in that region would be the subject of numerous disputes among Athale:, Huyfarah, Ziphe:, and maybe Buruja downriver; the rest of Te:mekas' reign might well be spent consolidating and defending his conquest.

Second, I think the province of Xo:ron Eiel could be bigger, maybe incorporating the whole area betwee the upper E:za and the Ratheda:n. The hole in the empire near the mountains up there looks kind of odd, especially so close to Zophi:s.

Third, about names in the lower right: I like Ata:x Pe:tan for the large forest, and the province there (which should extend into it I think); it's the cognate of the Faralo name, which is inherited from Ndak Ta. Also, I've decided Mili:r is better than Alir, since I don't think the <m> in Mlir was ever syllabic anyway.

As for Hitatc Wan/Ktacwa, it kind of depends on how the <h> and the <tc>/<c> are meant to be pronounced; I've been taking them as /h/ and /tS/, but maybe that's not what Radius had in mind. Anyway, my guess is that one of Itasian, Kitasian, Itatizan, Kitatizan might be the Ad:ata reflex if it was borrowed around Ndak Ta times. I kind of like Itasian or Itatizan myself, but I'm not super-attached to them. Tasua: as a more recent borrowing sounds plausible enough.

On the language map, I think I'd have Mavakhalan extend to the upper Eza, rather than having that arm of Adhasth reaching up the river there. Otherwise it looks good to me.


Instead of moving forward in history, I seem to be puttering around with retelling the events of the third century from different points of view. I may post the Akeladadan story later.

[Radius Solis]

I have a few responses to the maps cedh posted. First: I'm worried about Akelodo/Akeladada being so close to the border of the empire; it seems awfully vulnerable. If I were Te:mekas II, I'd probably try to annex as much territory north and east of that river angle as I could; at the least I'd occupy the eastern bank of the E:za across from the city. Probably the borders in that region would be the subject of numerous disputes among Athale:, Huyfarah, Ziphe:, and maybe Buruja downriver; the rest of Te:mekas' reign might well be spent consolidating and defending his conquest.

Agreed.

Second, I think the province of Xo:ron Eiel could be bigger, maybe incorporating the whole area betwee the upper E:za and the Ratheda:n. The hole in the empire near the mountains up there looks kind of odd, especially so close to Zophi:s.

Though that stood out to me as well, I wasn't going to argue it... too many other things going on. But I do agree.

Third, about names in the lower right: I like Ata:x Pe:tan for the large forest, and the province there (which should extend into it I think); it's the cognate of the Faralo name, which is inherited from Ndak Ta. Also, I've decided Mili:r is better than Alir, since I don't think the <m> in Mlir was ever syllabic anyway.

As for Hitatc Wan/Ktacwa, it kind of depends on how the <h> and the <tc>/<c> are meant to be pronounced; I've been taking them as /h/ and /tS/, but maybe that's not what Radius had in mind. Anyway, my guess is that one of Itasian, Kitasian, Itatizan, Kitatizan might be the Ad:ata reflex if it was borrowed around Ndak Ta times. I kind of like Itasian or Itatizan myself, but I'm not super-attached to them. Tasua: as a more recent borrowing sounds plausible enough.

I didn't have a lot in mind. Just like Faraghin/Feråjin, These names were meant to fill up space (showing that the valley wasn't just empty aside from the Ndak) and to look like they might represent something in a phonology different from Ndak Ta's, with little thought given to any details.

So maybe I should provide some. I'm pretty sure I meant all the apparent clusters to actually be clusters - no epenthetic vowels or syllabic consonants in Ktacwa or Hitatc or Mlir. So lets assume these languages are very cluster-tolerant. Then, "c"... I tend to use that for /ts)/ or /tS)/ and that's how I've pronounced those in my head, but this leaves us with a superfluous "t" in "Hitatc". And it's kinda boring, too. So let's go with <c> = palatal stop /c/. When I made up "Ktacwa" I was definitedly thinking x > k, so the "h" probably represented an /x/. If at some point we want more details on these languages than this, I'm happy to let anybody who wants to create one or more of them do so.

On the language map, I think I'd have Mavakhalan extend to the upper Eza, rather than having that arm of Adhasth reaching up the river there. Otherwise it looks good to me.

Agreed.

[Cedh]

First: I'm worried about Akelodo/Akeladada being so close to the border of the empire; it seems awfully vulnerable. If I were Te:mekas II, I'd probably try to annex as much territory north and east of that river angle as I could; at the least I'd occupy the eastern bank of the E:za across from the city. Probably the borders in that region would be the subject of numerous disputes among Athale:, Huyfarah, Ziphe:, and maybe Buruja downriver; the rest of Te:mekas' reign might well be spent consolidating and defending his conquest.

This sounds reasonable. There sure would be frequent border troubles on the left bank of the Ēza. But it's not unlikely that the river would finally end up as the official border anyway; it's probably more than 200m wide at this spot already and thus an excellent natural defence for either side.

Second, I think the province of Xo:ron Eiel could be bigger, maybe incorporating the whole area betwee the upper E:za and the Ratheda:n. The hole in the empire near the mountains up there looks kind of odd, especially so close to Zophi:s.

I figured the Dāiadak would conquer the plain, but maybe not the upper reaches of the valley there. But if there's an independent tribe left in that region, its territory should probably not be as big as I've drawn it.

Third, about names in the lower right: I like Ata:x Pe:tan for the large forest, and the province there (which should extend into it I think); it's the cognate of the Faralo name, which is inherited from Ndak Ta.

D'accord...

As for Hitatc Wan/Ktacwa, it kind of depends on how the <h> and the <tc>/<c> are meant to be pronounced; I've been taking them as /h/ and /tS/, but maybe that's not what Radius had in mind. Anyway, my guess is that one of Itasian, Kitasian, Itatizan, Kitatizan might be the Ad:ata reflex if it was borrowed around Ndak Ta times. I kind of like Itasian or Itatizan myself, but I'm not super-attached to them. Tasua: as a more recent borrowing sounds plausible enough.

I like Itatizan too.

On the language map, I think I'd have Mavakhalan extend to the upper Eza, rather than having that arm of Adhasth reaching up the river there.

I thought so too, only I guessed Adhāsth should be the more important dialect. It all depends on which city is more influential in the region immediately around the mouth of the Khalanu river. Politically at least, Khalanu seems less intent on dominating a territory than Thāras.

Instead of moving forward in history, I seem to be puttering around with retelling the events of the third century from different points of view. I may post the Akeladadan story later.

I'd love to see it!

[Corumayas]

This sounds reasonable. There sure would be frequent border troubles on the left bank of the Ēza. But it's not unlikely that the river would finally end up as the official border anyway; it's probably more than 200m wide at this spot already and thus an excellent natural defence for either side.

That makes sense to me.

I figured the Dāiadak would conquer the plain, but maybe not the upper reaches of the valley there. But if there's an independent tribe left in that region, its territory should probably not be as big as I've drawn it.

I don't know... the Dāiadak are mountain valley people themselves, I think they shouldn't have any trouble controlling such an area (especially one so close to their homeland).

I like Itatizan too.

Based on what Radius said, it might also be something like Kitākizan, if /xitatc/ were borrowed into late Ndak Ta as something like /kitatki/... Itatizan assumes it was borrowed as /itati/.

I thought so too, only I guessed Adhāsth should be the more important dialect. It all depends on which city is more influential in the region immediately around the mouth of the Khalanu river. Politically at least, Khalanu seems less intent on dominating a territory than Thāras.

Perhaps so; on the other hand its linguistic influence could still spread. I'd imagined it dominating the river valley it's in down to the Ēza.

I'd love to see it!

Well, here you go... it's kind of long, and begins and ends kind of vaguely; I was initially just trying to work out the international situation at the point where Radius's story left off, but the middle sort of got out of control and turned into a narration from the point of view of Akeladada, including a brief overview of the last dynasty of Akeladadan kings (based on the last native Babylonian dynasty).


In the first and second centuries, the middle Eigə valley was a kind of buffer region between the Rathedān and Huyfárah; Buruja and the Ndok kingdoms of Axôltseubeu were neutral ground where the Dāiadak and Fáralo came to talk and trade. During the latter half of the second century Huyfárah stagnated under the waning Balanin dynasty, allowing Buruja and the Ndok kingdoms to extend their influence to the north and east. Meanwhile the Rathedān was torn by intercity wars which periodically overflowed into nearby regions, prompting several of the kingdoms of the Eigə valley to band together for mutual defense. Under the leadership of Taizeu-ibauxeu I, king of Ngahêxôldod, central Axôltseubeu was unified into a kind of confederacy of kingdoms, somewhat similar to the Dāiadak League of a century earlier in the Rathedān.

Meanwhile, the Rathedān had been united under Athalēan rule, and the Dāiadak began to expand again. When they annexed the lower Milīr valley in 231, they found their new frontier impinging on the borders of Ngahêxôldod (now ruled by Taizeu-ibauxeu II). After several years of skirmishes and disputes, the two states fixed their borders with the treaty of 237.

Taizeu-ibauxeu may have been eager to resolve the conflict with Athalē because he needed to be free to defend his eastern borders. Huyfárah's new emperor, Etou I, was securing his western provinces by pushing the border further west, bringing his armies right to the eastern fringes of Axôltseubeu. By his death, the Ndok kingdoms were virtually sandwiched between the two empires. The last part of Taizeu-ibauxeu's reign was occupied in strengthening his defenses while carefully balancing diplomatic relations with both Athalē and Ussor.

Taizeu-ibauxeu II died in 254 (after a long 43-year reign), and was succeeded by his son Roit-neheu. Almost immediately the crisis began: in 255 Etou II launched a massive invasion of Axôltseubeu. Roit-neheu sent to Athalē for help; the Dāiadak ruler, Mikha, responded, bringing his army across the Eigə to cut the Fáralo emperor's poorly defended supply lines. Etou was forced to withdraw; shortly after, he had to hurry home to put down a violent uprising in Ussor. He was unable to turn his attention to Axôltseubeu again for many years.

The kingdoms of Axôltseubeu had been badly shaken, however. The defenses had been shattered, and the infrastructure of the region severely damaged. Athalē was happy to provide assistance: borders were secured with the help of Dāiadak soldiers, fortifications and other public works were rebuilt with the help of Dāiadak engineers (and Dāiadak gold). But popular opinion in Ngahêxôldod was resentful; it seemed unthinkable that the king of kings, divine ruler of a great and ancient city, should allow the land to be overrun by these upstart heathen llama-herders and tinsmiths from the hills. Roit-neheu, blamed as much for the loss of the kingdom's prestige as for the invasion itself, was assassinated in 256.

Axôltseubeu fell into political turmoil for a few years. The next king of Ngahêxôldod, Taizeu-mabarô, was barely able to control the city itself, let alone the country outside its gates, and died under suspicious circumstances himself in 260 (followed shortly by his two young sons). Finally Gexoitsoi-ibauxeu, son of an influential high priestess, seized power, brought the kingdom firmly under control, and set about rebuilding.

During the chaos, Athalēan influence in Axôltseubeu had expanded enormously. The Dāiadak now controlled most of the Eigə trade, held fortifications along the eastern borders, and dominated the many kingdoms of the valley through aggressive diplomacy. For years Gexoitsoi-ibauxeu bided his time, working carefully to restore Ngahêxôldod's independence and its leadership in the region, quietly seeking new trading partners and making alliances without openly defying Athalē.

In 274, the Athalēan ruler Uremas I died; his heir, Tēmekas II, was an untried boy of sixteen. Gexoitsoi-ibauxeu saw his chance, and rebelled, expelling Dāiadak merchants, diplomats, engineers, and soldiers from all the kingdoms under his control. Tēmekas responded with unexpected vigor, invading Axôltseubeu the following spring. After two years of hard fighting, he captured Ngahêxôldod and was enthroned as king of kings in the ancient temple of Itsdehad. Gexoitsoi-ibauxeu was taken to Athalē in chains, and died there the following year.

It took two more years to subdue the remaining kingdoms of the Eigə valley. Tēmekas' attempts to advance up the Boíəba were blocked by the sturdy defenses of Oigop'oibeuxeu; and so Axôltseubeu was permanently split in two. Most of the Eigə valley was incorporated into the burgeoning Dāiadak empire; the Boíəba valley solidified into a single, newly unified and forcefully defended state under the rule of Oigop'oibeuxeu.

Etou II could not fail to respond to the Dāiadak conquest of southern Axôltseubeu; but despite repeated campaigns he could do no more than prevent Tēmekas from annexing even more territory to the north and east. A new status quo emerged: the border between Huyfárah and Athalē now followed the Eigə between Ngahêxôldod and Buruja. Southern Axôltseubeu became thoroughly Dāiadakized. Three states remained as buffers-- Oigop'oibeuxeu in the Boíəba valley, Buruja on the middle Eigə, and southern Kasca (mostly under the rule of Palwe by now) on the lower Eigə and along the coast southward.


Kings of Ngahêxôldod (?Thirteenth Dynasty)
Taizeu-ibauxeu I r. 190-211
Taizeu-ibauxeu II r. 211-254
Roit-neheu r. 254-256 (assassinated)
Taizeu-mabarô r. 256-260 (probably assassinated)
Gexoitsoi-ibauxeu r. 260-277 (d. 278)
Tēmekas r. 277-310

Code: Select all

        Taizeuibauxeu I
               |
        Taizeuibauxeu II
    ___________|___________
   |                       |
Roitneheu   Taizeumabarô = d. =? Gexoitsoibauxeu
                   ______|______
                  |             |
              Euspokneheu   Taizeuneheu

[Zhen Lin]

So, it seems both Huyfárah and Axôltseubeu have internal political trouble fairly often - what about Athalē/Rathedān?

[Corumayas]

Well, there's plenty of that going on in Athalē during this period too. Here's an updated timeline of how things fit together, incorporating Radius et al.'s stories for Athalē and Huyfárah with mine for Lasomo.


from 140 on --- conflicts and battles between Thāras, Khalanu, Athalē, etc.
c 170-180 --- Semōn the Elder (general and statesman) rises to power in Athalē
183 --- fall of Thāras; royal family taken to Athalē as hostages
c 190 --- marriage of Idores of Thāras to Makīla, grandchild of Semōn the Elder; Taizeuibauxeu I founds Thirteenth Dynasty of Ngahêxôldod
196 --- fall of Khalanu; Rathedān united under Athalēan rule
199 --- Semōn the Elder d.; Semōn the Younger seizes power
201 --- assassination of Semōn the Younger; oligarchy restored
from 200 on --- renewed expansion of Athalē into the upper Eigə and Milīr valleys
ca 200-700 --- Common Vulgar Adāta
207, 213 --- attempted coups in Athalē
211 --- Taizeuibauxeu II succeeds as king of Ngahêxôldod
late 220s --- Balanin civil war in Huyfárah; first Huyfárahan Golden Age ends
c 228 --- Aiathi gains control of the Athalēan khiara
229-231 --- Itatizan War-- empire of Athalē absorbs the lower Milīr
c 230 --- ascension of Etou I in Huyfárah; under his rule Huyfárah expands west to the borders of Axôltseubeu
234 --- Aiathi d., succeeded by his son Phanal; conflict with Ndok kingdoms
237 --- treaty between Athalē and Ngahêxôldod fixes their mutual border
244 --- plague in Etewg Peidæm forest, maybe elsewhere too; Phanal d., Tēmekas I takes power in Athalē
ca 250 --- Etou I d., ascension of Etou II in Huyfárah
253 --- Tēmekas I d., succeeded by his son Mikha in Athalē
254 --- Taizeuibauxeu II d., his son Roitneheu succeeds in Ngahêxôldod
ca 255 --- failed Fáralo invasion of Axôltseubeu: Athalēans cut supply lines of Etou II at the request of Roitneheu
256 --- Roitneheu assassinated, Taizeumabarô takes power in Ngahêxôldod; Axôltseubeu weakened, Athalē expands its influence
257 --- Mikha assassinated; Uremas I takes power in Athalē
260 --- Taizeumabarô d., probably assassinated; Gexoitsoibauxeu seizes power in Ngahêxôldod
274 --- Uremas I d., succeeded by his son Tēmekas II; Gexoitsoibauxeu revolts against Athalēan domination
275 --- Tēmekas II invades Axôltseubeu
277 --- fall of Ngahêxôldod: empire of Athalē absorbs southern Axôltseubeu
ca 295 --- Etou II d., ascension of Gadein I in Huyfárah
310 --- Tēmekas II d., followed by his son Tēmekas III; his second son Uremas II succeeds in Athalē
ca 310 --- Gadein I d., ascension of Etou III; Etúgə revival in Huyfárah
ca 320 --- exodus of the Puoni from Huyfárah
325 --- Uremas II d. in Athalē
c 330 --- Kasca and Buruja become vassal states of Huyfárah by treaty
c 340-400 --- second Huyfárahan Golden Age
c 350 --- empire of Athalē absorbs Xōron Eiel, reaches maximum extent


If you don't like anything, we can change it! And if you feel like adding things or extending the detailed history further into the fourth century, feel free. I don't know if I'll have time to work on it much more this week.

[Radius Solis]

I love it! Sometimes it's fun to get into history-telling mode, isn't it. Pretty much everything here works for me, with a few minor nitpicks:

- I can't really see the Athalean Empire expanding all the way to the other side of Tah Ici, which you implied but didn't state. The forest is a big barrier, firstly; secondly there's no good path around it, as you state that Buruja remained independent (and of course Huyfarah forms a barrier north of Buruja). Further, my Pencek history was written under the assumption that it was a border hinterland of the Empire... if the Empire ever expanded further into the forest than its northwestern quadrant, then I'll need to severely revise the Pencek sociolinguistic history.

- Oigop'oibeuxeu/Ziphe comes out of your history independent and strong-ish. Were we still going to have it be invaded later? I've been thinking about how some descendents of the Feråjin might end up in the right position and inclination to do this (a Goths-like migration of a warrior people, most of the distance being covered on the other side of the northern mountains with them coming back down above the Ziphe river and first raiding, then occupying Oigop'oibeuxeu).

[Zhen Lin]

Well, there's plenty of that going on in Athalē during this period too.

Yes, but nothing that brings disaster for the nation, unlike Axôltseubeu or Huyfárah. Anyway, it isn't really a criticism so much as an observation - it seems, to me, that the successful empires in real life were also fairly resilient against internal political strife.

[Radius Solis]

While considering today the names of the rulers and associated nobles of Rathedan (most of which I made up myself, admittedly), I noticed a pattern and thought it might be cool to build a Daiadak cultural note on it.

Proposal: Daiadak nobility had a habit of adding suffixes to their children's names, especially children they had hope of achieving some power (although any noble had the right to bear such a name). These suffixes served a marker of noble blood and that one was thusly due respect. Commoners who tried giving such suffixes to their own children earned public ridicule, or in some citystates, could even be punished.

Historians in Athale traced their development from a system of noble patronymics that in earlier centuries were strictly-enforced labels of lineage from particular ancestors. By -400 YP, however, the noble families of Rathedan had intermarried enough over the centuries that most could claim a number of lineages - but use of multiple patronymics came to be seen as pompous. When they could thus no longer serve as useful markers of family membership, the number of such names in use declined as nobles used only those deemed more prestigious. Further, the forms of these names were shortened and by the time of the Prophet Zarakatias had become simple suffixes.

By the second century YP, only about a dozen suffixes were still in common use, and most had become segregated by gender. Some were more popular in some citystates than others.

Feminine:
-:la -- used across Rathedan (always follows a long vowel) (Naio:la, Maki:la)
-oze -- fashionable in Radias, Athale, and Hiphago
-ni -- prevalent in Khalanu and Zophis

Unisex:
-thi -- popular in Athale, Tharas, and Hiphago (Aiathi)
-ra: -- mostly Mezaras and Nitaze

Masculine:
-as -- widespread but especially prestigious in Radias and Athale; derives from Radias, legendary founder of that citystate (Te:mekas, Uremas)
-es -- a form of -as used mostly in Tharas (Idores)
-:tus -- traditional in Khalanu, rare elsewhere (always follows a long vowel)
-al -- commonly believed to derive from "Athale" although scholars ascribed it a different origin; common only in that city. Sometimes takes the form -ale: (Phanal)
-non -- widespread and common
-mi:x -- primarily Khanalu and Zophis
-ur -- Popular in Mezaras; also found in Nitaze and Radias, but rare elsewhere

[Zhen Lin]

Proposal: Daiadak nobility had a habit of adding suffixes to their children's names, especially children they had hope of achieving some power (although any noble had the right to bear such a name). These suffixes served a marker of noble blood and that one was thusly due respect. Commoners who tried giving such suffixes to their own children earned public ridicule, or in some citystates, could even be punished.

Very plausible. But wouldn't punishment require some kind of central registry of names?

Now, for some random fun - reflexes in Ayāsthi and Mavakhalan.

-:la -- A -:llı, MK -la
-oze -- A -oşş, MK -oze
-ni -- A -ņə, MK -ň
-thi -- A -sy, MK -š
-ra: -- A -ra, MK -ro
-as -- A -ah, MK -a
-es -- A -eh, MK -e
-:tus -- A -:ṫyh, MK -t
-al -- A -al, MK -al
-ale: -- A -alē, MK -alê
-non -- A -noṁ, MK -nǫ
-mi:x -- A -mī, MK -mi
-ur -- A -ur/-yr/-wr, MK -ôr

[Radius Solis]

Very plausible. But wouldn't punishment require some kind of central registry of names?

Oh, I dunno, it doesn't need to be systematic. But a person can hardly go through life without a number of other people finding out their name, and a commoner having a noble name is something that would be remarked on, so word of the parents' indiscretion will eventually reach people who would be offended by it or are loyal to such.

[Zhen Lin]

True. Now that we have forenames out of the way, what about surnames? While it is true that western nations (and oddly, Japan) were a bit late adopting surnames for everyone, there are cultures which have had family names for much, much longer (China). Although patronymics could fit the part, given that there seem to be noble families/houses, perhaps we could have something more elaborate.

Proposal for the naming conventions and family structure:

All children are given one birth name by their parents. As a matter of tradition, fathers name sons and mothers name daughters.

A person's birth name is the name they are known by for the rest of their lives, with these exceptions: when a person is recognised as a noble person in their own right, they are required to take on an appellation in recognition of their new status. Taking on an appellation (and indeed, any name change) is regarded as a very serious matter; in the case of persons of non-noble descent gaining noble status, the right to select an appellation may be given to the sponsoring noble in gratitude. Children of noble descent, on the other hand, usually select their own appellation. Regnal names are considered an extension of this practice.

The nobility is structured into houses, which are divided into branches. (At this point I will assume the Dāiadak are matriarchal.) Upon marriage, men enter the house of their wife, leaving the house of their mother, but are entitled to start their own branch at any time after the birth of their first child. Starting their own branch disqualifies them from inheriting leadership of the wife's branch. A single branch is identified as the "main" branch, and its oldest woman is identified as the matriarch of the house, while her husband (or son, but not son-in-law) is the de facto head of the house. Leadership in a branch follows female line descent. Marriages between members of closely related branches are discouraged. Marriage between the main branches of two different houses is regarded as a very serious affair, particularly if the man is the eldest son of a widowed matriarch and the woman is an unmarried matriarch; it is tantamount to merging the two houses.

Commoners do not have family names, at least until the time when the government deems it useful to track people. Informal appellations may be used, for example, a man's profession. Unlike the formal appellations of the nobility, informal appellations are secondary to the birth name and are also postpositional.

All boys use patronymics and all girls use matronymics, regardless of descent. Patronyms and matronyms are usually dropped in adulthood or in the event of the death of the father (if patronymic) or the mother (if matronymic).

Full name structures:
Noble, main branch: <appellation> <birth name> ax house ax <house>
Noble, other branch: <appellation> <birth name> ax <branch> ax <house>
Boy, noble: <birth name> son ax <patronym> ax <branch> ax <house>
Girl, noble: <birth name> daughter ax <matronym> ax <branch> ax <house>

Commoner: <birth name> <informal appellation>
Boy, commoner: <birth name> son ax <patronym> <appellation of father>
Girl, commoner: <birth name> daughter ax <matronym> <appellation of mother>

[Radius Solis]

It's good. Really it's too bad that with such a nice description of naming conventions, we don't have many specific namable people to discuss.

My one suggestion is to allow these conventions to vary somewhat from city to city. Perhaps this is a description of the conventions of Athale, while noble houses in Radias and Zophis are patriarchal and in Mezaras house leadership falls to the oldest member regardless of gender, and citizens of Khalanu keep their m/patronyms their whole lives. Or something along those lines.

[Corumayas]

I can't really see the Athalean Empire expanding all the way to the other side of Tah Ici, which you implied but didn't state.

I tried to leave that kind of vague because I wasn't sure how large of an area in Tah Ici you needed for Pencek. It sounds like it's smaller than I thought; we can adjust the story accordingly.

Oigop'oibeuxeu/Ziphe comes out of your history independent and strong-ish. Were we still going to have it be invaded later? I've been thinking about how some descendents of the Feråjin might end up in the right position and inclination to do this (a Goths-like migration of a warrior people, most of the distance being covered on the other side of the northern mountains with them coming back down above the Ziphe river and first raiding, then occupying Oigop'oibeuxeu).

I needed to explain why Ziphe didn't become part of either empire at that point. I figure it'll decline later; maybe the migration you describe could happen around the 6-7-800s?

BTW, if the Feråjin travel north of the mountains they could interact with Qedik. That could be fun... it's a little better described than Ndok Aiso, though as I recall it doesn't have much of a lexicon (sound changes are there though).

Yes, but nothing that brings disaster for the nation, unlike Axôltseubeu or Huyfárah. Anyway, it isn't really a criticism so much as an observation - it seems, to me, that the successful empires in real life were also fairly resilient against internal political strife.

Yeah; this part of the timeline does strike me as a little odd:

ca 255 --- failed Fáralo invasion of Axôltseubeu: Athalēans cut supply lines of Etou II at the request of Roitneheu (uprisings in Huyfarah follow)
256 --- Roitneheu assassinated, Taizeumabarô takes power in Ngahêxôldod; Axôltseubeu weakened, Athalē expands its influence
257 --- Mikha assassinated; Uremas I takes power in Athalē
260 --- Taizeumabarô d., probably assassinated; Gexoitsoibauxeu seizes power in Ngahêxôldod

Apparently it was a particularly bad time to be a ruler. But unlike the troubles in Huyfarah and Lasomo, the assassination of Mikha doesn't seem to affect the external politics of Athalē at all. Maybe this is because the Daiadak empire was less centralized than Huyfarah, yet more stable than Lasomo...?


The discussion of names is interesting! I'm not sure about Zhen Lin's decision that the Daiadak are matriarchal though; firstly, I think you mean matrilineal (especially since all the important political figures so far are male); and secondly, the rulers of Athalē seem to be inheriting through their fathers rather than mothers...

[Cedh]

Apparently it was a particularly bad time to be a ruler. But unlike the troubles in Huyfarah and Lasomo, the assassination of Mikha doesn't seem to affect the external politics of Athalē at all. Maybe this is because the Daiadak empire was less centralized than Huyfarah, yet more stable than Lasomo...?

Probably; and maybe also because Uremas was a more proficient politician than Taizeu-mabarô.

BTW, if the Feråjin travel north of the mountains they could interact with Qedik. That could be fun... it's a little better described than Ndok Aiso, though as I recall it doesn't have much of a lexicon (sound changes are there though).

That's what I was thinking, too. If we put Proto-Ferogh /fErOG1n/ through Qedik sound changes (which is an approach a bit too simple, but well) we'd get something like /pp\izu<\i?/...

Full name structures

The Adāta for "son" is zed, and "daughter" is taran. "house" could be zeia (originally: "house/home as a building") or mūia "place of origin", but I suppose it'd be better to coin a new word for "family" and/or "lineage/dynasty", both of which don't exist in the Adāta (and Ndak Ta) vocabulary yet.

So :
Noble, main branch: <appellation> <birth> ax "house" ax <house>
Noble, other branch: <appellation> <birth> ax <branch> ax <house>
Boy, noble: <birth> zed ax <patronym> ax <branch> ax <house>
Girl, noble: <birth> taran ax <matronym> ax <branch> ax <house>

Commoner: <birth> <informal>
Boy, commoner: <birth> zed ax <patronym> <appellation>
Girl, commoner: <birth> taran ax <matronym> <appellation>

[Dewrad]

/me coughs.

While I'm not averse to Zhen Lin's suggestion, I will however put my foot down about the Daiadak being matriarchal. There might well be traces of earlier (pre-Ndak) matrifocal tendencies, such as the main deity being female, but I've always conceived of the Daiadak as being pretty patriarchal- more so than the Ndak (as I've always had a conception of the Gezoro as being patriarchal nomadic types).

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

[Radius Solis]

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

It's you that left us with barely any derivational processes.

[Dewrad]

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

It's you that left us with barely any derivational processes.

And it's you that left us with only four derivational affixes >:| However, I shall over the weekend endeavour to add an addendum to the Adata (which again can be freely ignored by those later down the chain should they wish to), which will collect and possibly expand the derivational processes shown in the lexicon.

[Radius Solis]

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

It's you that left us with barely any derivational processes.

And it's you that left us with only four derivational affixes >:| However, I shall over the weekend endeavour to add an addendum to the Adata (which again can be freely ignored by those later down the chain should they wish to), which will collect and possibly expand the derivational processes shown in the lexicon.

That would be nice. And yes, Ndak Ta had only four - but where are the reflexes of those four in Adata. I ask you. And it's not like you didn't have two thousand years of time depth to play with. It's not exactly difficult to create derivational morphology out of content words. Zompist did! I did!

That said, when I did the new words for Adata, two of NT's four have reflexes among the words... lau > -lo: for places/locations and -bu, which ended up only in a few fossilized words because we decided to replace it in most words with Gezoro -ja, if you recall.

[Zhen Lin]

ta becomes a verb, and it appears that there are almost no examples of ta derivatives. -bu is common, and there seem to be enough non-obscure derivations for it to be productive. -du is not so common, and the derivations are obscure... -ja and -lō are somewhat more common, but the derivations are somewhat obscure. The diminutive -le and the causative uphō- (?) seem to be missing entirely, which is a pity...

While I'm not averse to Zhen Lin's suggestion, I will however put my foot down about the Daiadak being matriarchal. There might well be traces of earlier (pre-Ndak) matrifocal tendencies, such as the main deity being female, but I've always conceived of the Daiadak as being pretty patriarchal- more so than the Ndak (as I've always had a conception of the Gezoro as being patriarchal nomadic types).

Adjustments, then. Women enter the house of their husbands and leave the house of their fathers, the oldest man is identified as the patriarch and usually also the de facto head of the house, leadership follows male line descent.

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

Hmm, consonant clusters... Nonetheless, it is a sensible derivation.

[Corumayas]

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

Hmm, consonant clusters... Nonetheless, it is a sensible derivation.

I think it would become zēra. The rule VC --> V: /_C applies to other compounds.

Also, let's take a closer look at the basic family terminology that already exists. In addition to meze "father", mina "mother", zed "son", and taran "daughter", we have a distinction between thunē "elder brother" and mēkat "brother"; but no such distinction for omō "sister". There's zēiē "uncle" but (so far) no word for aunt. There's dephi "child" (in the phrase dephi ax mina aka translated "son of his mother") and ababu "illegitimate child". And there's nuxāpu "head of household".

This all sounds like it fits quite well with the patriarchal version of Zhen Lin's scenario.


Edit: Unrelatedly-- our Feråjin-speaking wanderers could pick up loans and influences from:
-Faraghin
-early/classical Faralo
-possibly Mûtsipsa' (either directly, or through Faralo, or both)?
-Qedik
-one or more unknown, unrelated languages (maybe some Western nomads distantly related to the Gezoro?)
-late Ziphēan Ndok Aisô
-later Faralo
-late vulgar Adāta or early Æðadĕ, Aðāsth, Mavakhalan, etc.

Given all that, Feråjin itself probably doesn't need to be terribly well-developed for someone to come up with the daughter language these folks speak once they're settled in Lasomo.

[Radius Solis]

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

Hmm, consonant clusters... Nonetheless, it is a sensible derivation.

I think it would become zēra. The rule VC --> V: /_C applies to other compounds.

I don't, because I have no idea how Dewrad formed that word. Where is there a -ra suffix? The plural/collective derivation, as described in the grammar, is a prefixed ā-.

Edit: Unrelatedly-- our Feråjin-speaking wanderers could pick up loans and influences from:
-Faraghin
-early/classical Faralo
-possibly Mûtsipsa' (either directly, or through Faralo, or both)?
-Qedik
-one or more unknown, unrelated languages (maybe some Western nomads distantly related to the Gezoro?)
-late Ziphēan Ndok Aisô
-later Faralo
-late vulgar Adāta or early Æðadĕ, Aðāsth, Mavakhalan, etc.

Given all that, Feråjin itself probably doesn't need to be terribly well-developed for someone to come up with the daughter language these folks speak once they're settled in Lasomo.

All true, but I'm nevertheless having fun trying to provide a partial diachronic basis for Faraghin/jin all the way back to a Proto-Isthmus spoken 1000 years before Ndak Ta. It's not necessarily going to be a complete job, however - I'm only working out enough to get some nice grammar going. Then all the later influences will have a solid skeleton to be the flesh of.

[Corumayas]

Also, how about zedra for "family" (son + collective)? I'd really like it if we could make as much use of Adata's existing derivational processes rather than inventing new roots willy-nilly.

Hmm, consonant clusters... Nonetheless, it is a sensible derivation.

I think it would become zēra. The rule VC --> V: /_C applies to other compounds.

I don't, because I have no idea how Dewrad formed that word. Where is there a -ra suffix? The plural/collective derivation, as described in the grammar, is a prefixed ā-.

It's not in the grammar, but I found it in the etymology of one word in the lexicon:

lōzera religion [G. lōjai "god" + -ra "collective"]

Maybe it's an old Gezoro derivation that's no longer productive?

All true, but I'm nevertheless having fun trying to provide a partial diachronic basis for Faraghin/jin all the way back to a Proto-Isthmus spoken 1000 years before Ndak Ta. It's not necessarily going to be a complete job, however - I'm only working out enough to get some nice grammar going. Then all the later influences will have a solid skeleton to be the flesh of.

Cool! I look forward to seeing it. (How many languages do you have in the works now???)

[Radius Solis]

Aha, you found the -ra. Alright then!

Also, I have never had less than half a dozen langauges in the works at any given time since 2004.