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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:18 am 
Sanno
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Thanks for the reply, Cedh! Good stuff to think about


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:01 pm 
Avisaru
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Shoutout to all those working on Rompian: how much should Proto-Muyan be influenced by Rompian, given their relative proximity in Northwest Tuysáfa?

EDIT: Could I also say that I might want to redo the phonology of Proto-Muyan in the near-future, perhaps getting rid of the voiced stop series and adding another vowel or two.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:11 am 
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Oh man, I should really finish Pyvyy, given how little I have left, and in the recent months I've been getting ideas about redoing my pan-Tuysáfa language family. In the meantime I've been wondering if setting up some DBs would make reconstruction of PR easier.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:37 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:59 am 
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Just added ejctives to the inventory of Proto-Muyan.

Also, I've been thinking and I'm feeling that with the language as it stands it's getting more and more difficult to justify it being called "Muyan" from an in-world perspective. I'm thinking I should therefore change the name, but without daughter languages I don't feel I can do that yet. I'd probably base any future name off of the relfexes of the proto-form *wawá:k "language".

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:36 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:24 am 
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I've made a proposal for the history of Huyfárah and Kasca during the second millennium. Feel free to praise or pick apart as you like.

In 1100, the kingdom of Woldulaš controlled the entire Oltu valley as well as the city of Mæmedéi. Apart from that, all of Huyfárah and Kasca was divided into small city-states. The most influential of these was Mɨdu, followed by Azbǽbu and Buruya. Woldulaš was lagging behind a bit economically, though Ussor was on its way to become one of the main trading centres again.

In northern Kasca, a flooding had created a new, navigable canal through the delta. This greatly changed the economic prospects of that poor region. Soon the city-state of Wippwo appeared along the new channel, and it quickly grew to become one of the strongest city-states in Kasca. The other Kascan city-states, feeling threatened, attacked Wippwo, but Wippwo defeated them all and unified all of Kasca. During the following centuries, the Republic of Wippwo started continued to grow stronger and stronger, and by the fifteenth century, the economic power of Mɨdu was overshadowed by that of Wippwo.

The people of Mɨdu weren’t particularly pleased with this development. In the early sixteenth century, an intelligent young man named $$$ came up with an ambitious plan to make Mɨdu the centre of the world, both economically and culturally. This included strengthened cooperation with Azbǽbu and Buruya, the latter of which helped circumventing the Aiwa valley’s dependence on Wippwo, and a brand new university whose purpose was to educate the best traders, craftsmen and navigators. Merchants and craftsmen from all over the then-known world were invited to Mɨdu, and sailors from Mɨdu sailed far beyond the existing colonies and founded trading posts as far away as southern Peilaš and eastern Tuysáfa.

This started a rivalry between Mɨdu and Wippwo which would continue for centuries. Mɨdu used its alliances with Buruya and Azbǽbu to gain more power, while Wippwo made use of its control over both the delta and the Dagæm islands to try to control as much of the trade in the Aiwa valley and the Bay of Kasca as possible, and both tried to make their own trading posts – Wippwo had followed in Mɨdu’s footsteps and started founded trading posts in distant lands too – the most powerful. Although they never admitted it in public, both sides also paid pirates to attack the other’s trading ships.

Meanwhile, in Woldulaš, which was lagging behind again, a new king had come to power who wished to make Ussor Great Again. Unfortunately, he turned out to not be a very competent leader, and after he’d tried following Mɨdu’s and Wippwo’s examples and failed, he went on trying to find Ussor’s wealth within the kingdom instead. What this basically meant in practice was that the other cities within the kingdom had to pay enormous tributes to contribute to Ussor’s wealth, and at the same time, he started expanding Woldulaš to the north and the east, so those areas could start paying tributes too.

Soon afterwards Mæmedéi declared itself independent from Woldulaš and joined the confederation of Mɨdu instead. Following this, Woldulaš declared war on both Mæmedéi and Mɨdu, and Wippwo then saw its chance to crush their rivals, and so they joined Ussor in the war. However, as people elsewhere in Woldulaš rebelled too, Ussor was quickly captured by rebels from the inland parts of the Oltu valley and subsequently Mɨdu and its allies – Buruya and Azbǽbu now also got involved in the conflict – attacked Wippwo. This war severely damaged the economy of both sides, and soon afterwards they declared peace.

Woldulaš was no longer a single political unit. It was split into several city-states which all joined the confederation, which by this time, rather unoriginally, became known as ze Tselas “the One-country”, and which in English will be referred to as “the Union”. All members agreed that Wippwo would not be allowed to be part of it, though Wippwo didn’t want to, anyway. For a while Wippwo and the Union continued to fight for dominance, but eventually, when a few generations had passed and the conflict had cooled down quite a bit, both sides realized it would be better to cooperate and then Wippwo joined the Union too.

Following its accession to the Union, Wippwo adopted Nåmúþ its main trade language, and as a consequence, there has for the past century or so been a more general language shift from Wippwo to Nåmúþ.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:18 pm 
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Nice sketch.

When does Peilaš get the printing press? Has the date of that invention been canonized yet?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:27 am 
Avisaru
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Glad you like it.

According to the timeline, the printing press was invented in 1289, "probably" in Rathedān.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:56 pm 
Lebom
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When does writing reach West, Central and East Tuysáfa?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:32 am 
Sanno
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That hasn't been worked out in detail yet, I believe. Let's see:

- By 0 YP, the Katapaki are probably the most advanced civilization in Tuysáfa in many regards. However, thedukeofnuke writes about "the lack of a real writing system" in their culture.

- Deraighaw is said to be attested in a native writing system ("Deraighaw-A") that was in use for a few centuries and died out around -1000 YP. If it died out, it probably wasn't adopted by any relevant other ethnic groups.

- A couple of other Leic languages around 0 YP (Wih, Vij, LL) have a verb for "write". In Wih and Vij this word also means "draw", which is likely the original meaning. Vijiš also has a related noun for "writing system".

- Cednìtıt, also spoken about 0 YP, has two verbs for "write", both of them with other primary meanings ("etch, carve" and "arrange"), and a derived noun for "diary, journal".

- Fáralo ships explore the Ttiruku archipelago and probably the southwestern edge of Tuysáfa around 400 YP, but stop doing so soon afterwards because of internal conflict in Huyfárah. Regular contact between the Eigə sphere and Tuysáfa is probably not (re-)established before 800-1000 YP or so, at which point in time Peilaš should still have a small but significant technological advantage compared to at least western Tuysáfa.

- The Kennan colonise the northwestern tip of Tuysáfa between 400 and 600 YP and bring writing with them, in the form of an alphabet that's probably ultimately derived from the Ndak Ta script, but with several intermediates (most importantly the Takuña abugida, I would think). I've always assumed the target region to not have known writing before this.

- There's an independent native invention of writing in Anatolionesia (Ōmishiman alphasyllabary is mentioned to exist at c. 2500 YP), but it's not known when this occurred, and it need not have affected continental Tuysáfa all that quickly either, although it could.


I'm personally sceptical about the Leic and Cednìtıt words for writing. First of all, they were coined without serious previous discussion about the spread of technologies. Second, if the Katapaki are the most advanced civilisation in Tuysáfa at this time (urbanised but not yet a centralised political entity; just starting to adopt the first iron tools), it seems a bit unlikely to imagine a native invention of writing somewhere else, and any writing system in Tuysáfa at this time must be native because systems from Peilaš would only be able to be imported about 400 years later. Third, the Leic and Cednìtıt words could easily be redefined to just their non-writing-related meaning, as nothing depends on them.

In my opinion it would indeed be best to redefine those words, and have writing be introduced to the continent later, from three directions at a similar time: the Kennan alphabet from the northwest (Wendoth & Ronquian languages, starting c. 500 YP), the Fáralo alphabet from the southwest (Mbingmik & Leic languages, starting either c. 400 YP or c. 800 YP), and a native Hazāka syllabary that's closely related to the Anatolionesian script (Dumic & T1 languages, then spreading westwards, starting at some point between 300 and 1000 YP).

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:08 am 
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 8:53 am 
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About the Three Waves Theory: what is the current consensus on Ultimundic? And if Proto-Isles is not Ultimundic, then what languages are being referred to?

Also just a reminder that for half of the Isles languages the grammar is still only accessible by external link, so probably should be put onto the wiki for safekeeping. And could someone do the same for Dimana Lokud, currently the backup link goes to Web Archive.

(I'd really rather not do this myself because I have exams starting on Wednesday which will keep me busy for more than a month.)

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 4:05 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 5:08 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:23 am 
Avisaru
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Suggestion: we put the descendants of Proto-Muyan on the western penninsula, across the channel from where Rrób Tè Jĕhnò is on this map (see below). We posit that they had a formerly wider distribution further to the east, but that they were pushed back by Rompian speakers.



And then we explain the more radical developments/retentions of Rrób Tè Jĕhnò (retroflex stops, a three-way tenius/aspirated/ejective contrast in stops, word-final tone, the prefix-based expansion of the verbal complex) as being down to substrate effects from former Muyan languages in the territory the Rrób Tè Jĕhnò speakers now reside in, since Muyan shares many of those features.

This arrangement gives handy space for contact with Wendoth languages as well as Rompian, though it does make the migration theory hard to the explain, though still perfectly plausible (maybe Muyan speakers were the vectors of the arrival of agriculture from further east?). The contact considerations make this my preferred choice over placing it, say, just west of where A-Rox Ŋʷoskʷuɣmʲa is situated, but still keeps it well within the maritime-European climate zone I wanted for it.

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Last edited by Frislander on Mon May 15, 2017 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:22 am 
Avisaru
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Also, would it be OK, if I started a stub article for Koyek? Because right now the only way to get to the information on it is to go through a tiny numbered and nigh-on invisible external link next to the redlink on the Edastean languages page, when it probably deserves at least a small introductory article on the wiki like that for its sister Kozado.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 3:28 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 7:04 am 
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I'll just throw this out there: I currently don't have an etymology for the word "Muyan". It's definitely not an endonym, because Muyan as a family lacks bilabials, so it has to come from some other source. I'd like some suggestions for possible alternatives (with their etymologies) or possible origins for the currently form if you want. I'm thinking the name is/will be of Ronquian and Wendoth origin, because those are the two closest language groups.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:09 pm 
Avisaru
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I'm dead angry right now because I just wrote up some interesting stuff on Proto-Muyan's moods and questions and I misclicked somewhere and it was all lost! It takes way to long to do those examples, and now I'm gonna have to go write them up again :cry:

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:03 am 
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The original proto-NT grammar PDF link is now broken, and would rather the "more updated" version to be in a more accessible file format, preferably PDF.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:19 pm 
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:49 am 
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Someone should probably go through the wiki and add to the "Articles" category all those articles which haven't yet been added there, because the link to that page is labelled "All Articles" when it isn't.

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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 1:54 pm 
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I don't quite see the point of having such a category as a list of all the pages can be accessed by Special:AllPages…

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