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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:58 pm 
Smeric
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Corumayas wrote:
Radius wrote:
I did notice a necessary change you missed, however: N > n / _#. After all the changes were applied, some word-final [N] remained and had to be converted - perhaps that situation simply didn't arise with the original wordset, I don't know.

I did have
I wrote:
m,ŋ/n/_#
in there; maybe the ŋ got lost in the shuffle somehow (or does it not show up correctly in your browser?).


Mea culpa. There it is, I just completely missed that line.

Corumayas wrote:
Radius wrote:
Also about 3/4 of the vowels in the new list are long, which annoys me, but whichever. :P

I wonder if that's an error in the sound changes, or just a fluke in the new list of words. I think Adata always did have a lot of long vowels, though.


It's probably the latter. When I first made up most of the new words - more than a year ago now - I was not particularly paying attention to Adata's sound changes when I did them, but instead Naidda's. :roll: So to get what I wanted for Naidda, I used fewer nasal-stop clusters, but more consonant clusters overall, resulting in Adata's new words having fewer aspirated stops and more long vowels.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:30 am 
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Legion wrote:
Also, since the crash of Knee Quickie, edeastan language whose grammars when avalaible solely on the wiki are now not visible anymore: that concerns Nuntar's Arie, Whimemsz's Öhat, Ink Pudding's Xa', and your very own Puoni, Radius.


^ This guy knows what he's talking about, you should listen to him.

Also, after investigation, it appears that several daughterlangs are completly missing from the wiki - compare http://www.spinnoff.com/zbb/viewtopic.p ... 816#493816 with http://wiki.penguindeskjob.com/Edastean_languages


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:09 am 
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I wrote both articles, and forgot to update the one on the wiki when I last edited the one on the board. Also, the ZBB post includes languages which are yet to be derived, while the wiki lists only more-or-less finished ones.

I've just updated the wiki article, and fixed broken links in both versions as far as I could.

(And I've removed my own Aradŕy from the wiki list because I scrapped that one a while ago; I'm currently working on a different descendant of Erhadzy, tentatively called Orrótx)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:24 am 
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<tx>? I hope that's not Esperanto-style orthography there...

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:51 am 
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Zhen Lin wrote:
<tx>? I hope that's not Esperanto-style orthography there...

Don't worry, it's just a Catalan-inspired spelling for [tS] ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:53 pm 
Smeric
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Legion wrote:
Legion wrote:
Also, since the crash of Knee Quickie, edeastan language whose grammars when avalaible solely on the wiki are now not visible anymore: that concerns Nuntar's Arie, Whimemsz's Öhat, Ink Pudding's Xa', and your very own Puoni, Radius.


^ This guy knows what he's talking about, you should listen to him.


I know, thanks. I already knew Puoni was lost from the wiki, and that others had been too. The majority of the Puoni material has been rescued from google-cache or reconstructed, so sooner or later I'll get it back online. I'm more concerned about Arie and Xa'. Hopefully Nuntar and Ink Pudding have backups somewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:49 pm 
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NEW ADATA WORDS


Last edited by Radius Solis on Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:18 pm 
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Radius Solis wrote:
I'm more concerned about Arie and Xa'. Hopefully Nuntar and Ink Pudding have backups somewhere.

I have a complete backup of the Arie page but it's not in wiki formatting. I know that I need to stop being lazy and get round to re-wikifying it.....

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Radius Solis wrote:
Very cool. Thank you!

I have an announcement too: the revised version of Ghaf is online. It's still very much a work in progress, but at least now you can see the progress. Comments and constructive criticism are requested!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:29 am 
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Whoa, cool! Ghaf looks very well-described. I'm not sure the feel of the language is necessarily my cup of tea :P but I always appreciate seeing a skillfully done conlang, and this is certainly one.


----


Incidentally, with all that mucking around with Adata I just did, I couldn't help but think of ways I would change it if I could. And so, of course, a sixth Adata daughter - provisionally named Pencek - is in the works. (I'd work on Puoni instead, but all my materials for it are inaccessible on the HD of a dead computer...) However, I'm not highly invested in Pencek and so it's an open question whether it'll end up on the real family tree or not. It is not (yet) an official relay entry.

The backstory will involve the spreading of Adata via Anaitist missionaries and colonists to the tribal Miw who lived in the backwater forest region between Rathedan and the coast. A Metis-style blended culture and ethnicity resulted, including heavy Miw influences on Adata, and the region remained a backwater for many more centuries, cut off from the more affluent civilizations. The speakers of Pencek call themselves Tactak Urkec - the "Forgotten Daiadak".


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:41 am 
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Radius Solis wrote:
Incidentally, with all that mucking around with Adata I just did, I couldn't help but think of ways I would change it if I could. And so, of course, a sixth Adata daughter - provisionally named Pencek - is in the works. (I'd work on Puoni instead, but all my materials for it are inaccessible on the HD of a dead computer...) However, I'm not highly invested in Pencek and so it's an open question whether it'll end up on the real family tree or not. It is not (yet) an official relay entry.

The backstory will involve the spreading of Adata via Anaitist missionaries and colonists to the tribal Miw who lived in the backwater forest region between Rathedan and the coast. A Metis-style blended culture and ethnicity resulted, including heavy Miw influences on Adata, and the region remained a backwater for many more centuries, cut off from the more affluent civilizations. The speakers of Pencek call themselves Tactak Urkec - the "Forgotten Daiadak".


Actually, that'll be the seventh, cause I've already secretly been working on the sixth daughter for quite a while now :p

The name is Koyek, it will be a dead, liturgical language, belonging to same sub-branch than Kozado, kinda the Edastean Tokharian :D


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:49 am 
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A sample of the revised Ayāsthi.

Quote:
ər'äüwə śip, śënaxaƞ, atśëen'ax jëzax ġezor, atśëen'ax jëzax'a lah'a kāġat, atśëen'ax mēxat'a zamm əƞ þōllı:

“êlany afëen'ä əw'ōfāxāsë'a meśś'ä, eśś rȳlah əx'r'afeƞ afëen'axa as'-ēxoƞ êlliƞ. ārȳlah kazyh əx'r'äüƞ śip: “meśś'ax ər'atśeƞ jëzax pera. ər'opfëān'a âjëzaxalah'a āxāraƞ. ənśip ər'þaƞ y'nax. jal ə afëen'ax əw-ōfāxāsë'a meśś'ax ər'afeźy y-jëpfə.”

“i, atśëen'ä mēxat'a zamm əƞ þōllı, ġoll afëen'ä əw'ōfāxāsë'a meśś'ä, êlany nonańëen'ä atsə-rȳlah afëen'axa as'-ēxoƞ êlliƞ, y'r'zanonaƞ êlə-zāsy'a opfä. y'r'zamëzāxon'a ənśip y'r'awafaƞ ton'ä êlə-mënə mall. y'r'äüƞ śip: “ō ejaxy'ä, atśëen'ājə xēny'a āźē, âjëzaxalah kazyh pafaźëen'axa êlliƞ y-jëpfə əx'r'opfōnapfanan'yƞ. ənśip əx'ər'sāseƞ paźëen'axa kālah'a lahjōsin'ājə, ō ejaxy'ä! īēnarafawə ā əl-jōsiƞ!”

“opfä ər'ratsowə leźē'a maw'ä. ər'ulaw'yƞ ənśip ər'sapfiwə wapfor êll'-isëan'ä. y'r'petsan'a ā muxëen'axa iƞ ńē-lāt kerr. yx'ər'petsan'a. y'r'äüen'a âjāsī, ən'āū ən'āġārrı, ənśip y'r'pëlaran'a êlə-lah'a kāġat.”


In IPA, with spaces corresponding to prosodic words:

Quote:
əɹæywə ɕip, ɕenɑxɑ̃, ɑtɕeɛnɑx jezɑx ɦɛzɔɹ, ɑtɕeɛnɑx jezɑxɑ lɑhɑ kɑːɦɑt, atɕeɛnɑx mɛːxɑtɑ zɑmː ə̃ θɔːllɨ̆:

“elɑnɨ ɑfeɛnæ əwɔːɸɑːxaːseɑ, ɛɕː rɨːlɑh əxɹɑɸɛ̃ ɑɸeɛnɑxɑ ɑsɛːxɔ̃ ellĩ. ɑːrɨːlɑh kɑzɨh əxɹæỹ ɕip: “mɛɕːɑx əɹɑtɕɛ̃ jezɑx pɛɹɑ. əɹɔpfeɑːnɑ æːjezɑxɑlɑhɑ ɑːxɑːɹɑ̃. ənɕip eɹθɑ̃ ɨnɑx. jɑl ə ɑɸeɛnɑx əwɔːɸɑːxɑːseɑ meɕːɑx əɹɑɸeʑɨ ɨjepfə.”

“i, ɑtɕeɛnæ mɛːxɑtɑ zɑmm ə̃ θɔːllɨ̆, ɦɔlː ɑɸeɛnæ əwɔːɸɑːxɑːseɑ mɛɕːæ, elɑnɨ nɔnɑɲeɛnæ ɑtsəɹɨːlɑh ɑɸeɛnɑxɑ ɑsɛːxɔ̃ eːllĩ, ɨɹzɑnɔnɑ̃ eləzɑːsɨɑ ɔpɸæ. ɨɹzɑmezɑːxɔnɑ ənɕip ɨɹɑwɑɸɑ̃ tɔnæ eləmenə mɑll. ɨɹæỹ ɕip: “ɔː ɛjɑxɨæ, ɑtɕeɛnɑːjə xɛːnɨɑ ɑːʑɛː, æːjezɑxɑlɑh kɑzɨh pɑfɑʑeɛnɑxɑ eːllĩ ɨjepɸə əxɹɔpɸɔːnɑpɸɑnanɨ̃. ənɕip əxəɹsɑːsɛ̃ pɑʑeɛnɑxɑ kɑːlɑhɑ lɑhjɔːsinɑːjə, ɔː ɛjɑxɨæ! i:ɛːnɑrɑfɑwə ɑː əljɔːsĩ!”

“opɸæ əɹɹɑtsɔwə lɛʑɛːɑ mɑwæ. əɹulɑʉ̃ ənɕip ərsapɸiwə wɑpɸɔɹ eːlliseɑnæ. ɨɹpɛtsɑnɑ ɑː muxeɛnɑxɑ ĩ ɲɛː lɑːt kɛɹː. ɨxərpɛtsɑnɑ. ɨɹæyɛnɑ æːjɑːsiː, ənɑːuː ənɑːɦɑːɹɹɨ̆, ənɕip ɨɹpelɑrɑnɑ eːləlɑhɑ kɑːɦat.”

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:42 am 
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I've made a surprising degree of progress with Pencek in a comparatively short time (usually it takes me months to get anywhere at all with a conlang, if I ever do, which usually I don't).

The last time I did so well was with Puoni; similarly, I experienced a quick spate of intensive conlanging and then gradually lost steam. What I'm doing right this time that I didn't then, is to publish in presentable format everything I do as soon as I'm reasonably sure it's finalized. Currently presented are background/history/dialectology, phonology, and morphology. Watch that space for the upcoming additions of syntax, sample text, and lexicon sections. Of those, as always, syntax will necessarily be the bulkiest, trickiest, and most time-consuming of sections. I've already written a goodly amount of it, but it may be days before I get it wikified (which is next on my list).



I have a good feeling about this. I am absolutely forbidding myself from allowing this to balloon into an unmanageably huge project with grandiose ambitions, which has long been Puoni's major obstacle. I'm trying to follow the famous NASA slogan, what was it? "Cheaper, Faster, Better", or summat. That means there will definitely be inadequate description of dozens of topics. Sorry; maybe I'll get to them later, but ruthlessly ignoring all the non-core material is what's allowing me to keep going so strongly.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:12 am 
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What is given so far is very interesting. The 1100th year of the prophet corresponds to about 300 years after the collapse of Athalē, according to my chronology. Perhaps I should expand my history somewhat, and also add samples of "mediaeval" Adāta (analogous to mediaeval Latin) in my revised Ayāsth.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:45 am 
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Argh, I must stop ignoring this thread for weeks at a time.

Let's see, what appears to be of consequence for my work on AhH? If Ayāsth is being revised, there'll be ramifications, since I've been borrowing moderately heavily and was intending more. And new Adāta words! W00t, though it'll eventually double my workload when they propagate up to me. Anything else?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:58 am 
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There will be changes to vowels (I've thrown out a lot of the umlaut, but I kept the /i u/ lowering to /e o/), as well as consonants at morpheme boundaries. For example, the name becomes [AjAsT1_X], gaining an ultrashort vowel. An example of the elimination of umlaut is [Ar\Az\eE~], instead of [Ar\az\eE~], and an example of the elimination of sandhi is [kA:lAhAx] instead of [kA:lAzAx]. Consequently, the frequency of [æ œ y] will probably decrease significantly (they will still arise from diphthongs, e.g. */ai/ > /æ/; */abi/ > /awi/ > /ay/; */abe/ > /awe/ > /aœ/).

One problem with the new Adata words... there are some consonant-final verbs, which Adāta does not seem to have a conjugation for.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:38 am 
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Zhen Lin wrote:
There will be changes to vowels (I've thrown out a lot of the umlaut, but I kept the /i u/ lowering to /e o/), as well as consonants at morpheme boundaries. For example, the name becomes [AjAsT1_X], gaining an ultrashort vowel. An example of the elimination of umlaut is [Ar\Az\eE~], instead of [Ar\az\eE~], and an example of the elimination of sandhi is [kA:lAhAx] instead of [kA:lAzAx]. Consequently, the frequency of [æ œ y] will probably decrease significantly (they will still arise from diphthongs, e.g. */ai/ > /æ/; */abi/ > /awi/ > /ay/; */abe/ > /awe/ > /aœ/).

One problem with the new Adata words... there are some consonant-final verbs, which Adāta does not seem to have a conjugation for.


I was confronted with that problem earlier, so I looked at Ndak Ta, searching for consonant ending verbs, and see how they evolved in Adata - it turned out Adata simply adds -a to these verbs (except in the citation form, singular active habitual) - irregularity might arise, you have to check the etymon to be sure.

Thus "asêtin" (to discuss), from ndak ta "ntsertim" will conjugate like "zin" (to live) :

asêtin
asêtiman
asêtimasi

asêtimathi
asêtimabe
asêtimâ

asêtimal
asêtimâna
asêtimâsi

asêtimâthi
asêtimâbe
asêtimâa


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:33 am 
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Zhen Lin wrote:
One problem with the new Adata words... there are some consonant-final verbs, which Adāta does not seem to have a conjugation for.


As far as I can tell, Legion's got the right answer. Adata verbs ending in consonants in the citation form are the one that have different stems listed in Dewrad's original lexicon; the stem form typically just adds -a, except for when the final consonant is an /n/ deriving from NT /m/, in which case it becomes /m/ in the stem when inflected. There may be a few irregulars floating around though, I don't know.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:38 pm 
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Zhen Lin wrote:
For example, the name becomes [AjAsT1_X], [...]

Hm, I wonder what Early AhH speakers would do about an ultra-short vowel. If they simply convert that [1_X] to a [1], which seems plausible, then the name of my lang changes to Ājty he-Heloun...

Oh, and thanks for using examples that I've borrowed. I anticipate there being many more yet, in particular a fair number of high-prestige items, and I was going to run them all by you to check the sound-changes after I finished (that's why they're all marked with ? so far).

----

I've just looked through what there is so far of Pencek, and I've gotta ask about the unconditional change /m/ > /n/. Is there any precedent for that? I wouldn't've imagined it could happen. In codas or weak positions only, sure; maybe as part of a broader cataclysmic loss of labials, but no, you keep /p/; maybe if /n/ was lost or nearly lost earlier, so that /m/ was the only common nasal, but that's not the case either.

Eager to see more, though. And I like the perfective allomorphy, and I envy your skill at sociolinguistic historizing.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:45 am 
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4pq1injbok wrote:
Zhen Lin wrote:
For example, the name becomes [AjAsT1_X], [...]

Hm, I wonder what Early AhH speakers would do about an ultra-short vowel. If they simply convert that [1_X] to a [1], which seems plausible, then the name of my lang changes to Ājty he-Heloun...


That is an option, but don't forget there's already a /1 1:/ (and perhaps possibly even [M] as an allophone of /u/...)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:31 pm 
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4pq1injbok wrote:

I've just looked through what there is so far of Pencek, and I've gotta ask about the unconditional change /m/ > /n/. Is there any precedent for that? I wouldn't've imagined it could happen. In codas or weak positions only, sure; maybe as part of a broader cataclysmic loss of labials, but no, you keep /p/; maybe if /n/ was lost or nearly lost earlier, so that /m/ was the only common nasal, but that's not the case either.


Well, I was considering it to be part of a broader simplification of sonorant consonants: the liquids merging into a single liquid, and the nasals merging into a single nasal.

Granted, I'm not sure unconditional m>n is attested either, but languages with no other nasals but /n/ certainly are, so how did they get that way? Given that virtually all languages with at least two nasals have both an /m/ and an /n/, and assuming that not all languages with only /n/ have always been like that, then /m/ must have been unconditionally lost in at least some languages. The question is, lost in what way? I don't know, but I have a hunch that the number of such instances must be too large to explain entirely with cataclysmic losses of labials, which are quite rare.

Since I wanted an /n/-only language, in deciding how to accomplish that I considered not the absolute likelihood of m>n, but the comparative likelihood of m > n vs. m > 0 vs. m > something else like p. I opted for merging it into a phoneme that sounds similar instead of one that merely occurs at a similar POA; this then fit nicely with the simultaneous collapse of the l-r distinction.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:54 pm 
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Quote:
zarākhāseiāh rōmnak ar abhitshiu ship: āmnakkh ar abhibbh ēill imn.


The above is a transliteration of a transcription of late old Ayāsthi (Adhāsth) into a hypothetical Adāta alphabet... it looks vaguely Gaelic for some reason?

I'll probably write a sketch of old Ayāsthi as well.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:46 am 
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Ahem.

*cough* *cough*

Even though I'm no longer the relay coordinator, I'm going to pull rank and make a ruling:

Anybody is free to invent words in their source language whenever the author of that language didn't provide something you want to have. Publishment of such words encouraged but not required.

Derivers from small-lexicon languages (e.g. Ayasth) and their descendents, take note.

Okay, good. Now that's out of the way, let me go backxplain several dozen basic verbs into Adata that it didn't have even in the expansion... meh.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:47 am 
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Just posting to say that despite the extremely long time since i last posted, I've finished Yēt - in all its 34 page complexity :P. I'll upload it when I can get the server i use to work (which should be soon).

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:13 pm 
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Radius Solis wrote:
Anybody is free to invent words in their source language whenever the author of that language didn't provide something you want to have. Publishment of such words encouraged but not required.

Wait, seriously? I certainly see where you're coming from, and indeed, in the talideon wiki's take on this experiment, I did a fair amount of this. But then, that was quite necessary, 'cause our starting lexicon there was the items of the Babel text and nothing else; here we already have plenty of material.

If you're inventing a word out of whole cloth, it certainly makes sense to do so by projecting it back to the source lang, to get something with the general phonological feel of an evolved word, and to pick up whatever morphological alternations your sound changes bring about, and whatever. But positing this word to have been part of the source language all along? That feels, well, somewhat violating. Certainly I've already made a number of conscious decisions about the AhH lexis: semantic space will split this way, so that these semantic distinctions will be made but not those; these other concepts I don't want lexicalized at all -- it's not always just a matter of non-provision. And I wouldn't especially like having that ridden over roughshod.

And (on a theme I've touched on before) don't forget that there are plenty of ways aside from complete invention to get a word for X that don't necessitate your source language having had a word for X. Semantic shifts especially; but also borrowings, and fossilization of compounds or derived forms, &c. These have the further benefit (beyond parsimony) of being much more interesting than plain invention, from the etymological perspective.

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Quote:
[...] then /m/ must have been unconditionally lost in at least some languages. The question is, lost in what way? I don't know, but I have a hunch that the number of such instances must be too large to explain entirely with cataclysmic losses of labials, which are quite rare.

True. But my own hunch is that in these cases it'd more likely be something like /m/ > /b/ or /m/ > /w/, or indeed /m/ > /0/.


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