Sound Change Quickie Thread

[Pole, the]

Is this plausible ?
ɐ̃ ĩ õ ũ ẽ > ɐn in on un en
or
ɐ̃ ĩ õ ũ ẽ > ɐ: i: o: u: e:
or
ɐ̃ ĩ õ ũ ẽ > ɐ i o u e

All of these three are ok.

[Kilanie]

Daedalon, all your vowel changes work.

And what could be done to with [w̃] and [j̃] ?

They might just lose the nasalisation. You could also have them influence surrounding sounds, so that [gw̃a] > [ŋw̃a] > [ŋʷa] or [ŋʷã] or something similar. Intervocalically or word-initially, perhaps > [nw] and [nj].

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

I have the fictional race of mine, The Ḵsīnesīr, have a language.

The language I'm working on, Vrkhazhian, is supposed to be a decendant of the Ḵsīnesīr's language.

Problem is, the Ḵsīnesīr don't have lips because they're face is covered in bony-plating!

So, how could the descendant language generate bilabials and create rounding of vowels (the back vowels in the ancestor are all unrounded, while the descendant has them all rounded)?

There would be intermediate languages in between the Ḵsīnesīr language and Vrkhazhian. It's not direct ancestry.

[sangi39]

Problem is, the Ḵsīnesīr don't have lips because they're face is covered in bony-plating!

Biologically, or as some kind of cultural practice? I'd assume the latter, unless Vrkhazhian is the descendent of Ḵsīnesīr adopted by a lip-possessing species.

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

Problem is, the Ḵsīnesīr don't have lips because they're face is covered in bony-plating!

Biologically, or as some kind of cultural practice? I'd assume the latter, unless Vrkhazhian is the descendent of Ḵsīnesīr adopted by a lip-possessing species.

Biologically, they have no lips:
http://zeebwiki.org/index.php?title=%E1 ... nes%C4%ABr

Yes, Vrkhazhian is a language spoken by humans that descended from the languages that the Khsinesir spoke. It belongs to the Hašakaṃ language family, of the Northern variety.
In turn, Proto-Hašakaṃ is a descendant of Proto-Seḍ-Ašīrran, which is what the Khsinesir that first came into contact with humans first spoke.

[Mugitus]

My proto-lang contains the phonemes /dʑ g/ in its inventory and a descendant language lacks those two phonemes, how can I eliminate them realistically? Thanks!

[Daedolon]

My proto-lang contains the phonemes /dʑ g/ in its inventory and a descendant language lacks those two phonemes, how can I eliminate them realistically? Thanks!

dʑ > dz > dz̻ > dð > ð > ∅
g > k > x > h >∅

[Mugitus]

My proto-lang contains the phonemes /dʑ g/ in its inventory and a descendant language lacks those two phonemes, how can I eliminate them realistically? Thanks!

dʑ > dz > dz̻ > dð > ð > ∅
g > k > x > h >∅

Thank you

[sangi39]

My proto-lang contains the phonemes /dʑ g/ in its inventory and a descendant language lacks those two phonemes, how can I eliminate them realistically? Thanks!

dʑ > dz > dz̻ > dð > ð > ∅
g > k > x > h >∅

Thank you

You could even go down a different root and have:

dʑ > ʑ > j > ∅
g > ɣ > ɰ > ∅

Those last two changes might have effects on neighbouring vowels, e.g. lengthening, fronting, etc.

Saying that, if you already have /j/ and /w/, /ɰ/ could merge into the latter. You don't have to take the next step in completely deleting them from the inventory since, as far as the speakers are concerned, they aren't distinct sounds now.

[Genome]

What is the quickest way to go from ʔ to tʃ?

[Kilanie]

My proto-lang contains the phonemes /dʑ g/ in its inventory and a descendant language lacks those two phonemes, how can I eliminate them realistically? Thanks!

dʑ > dz > dz̻ > dð > ð > ∅
g > k > x > h >∅

Thank you

You could even go down a different root and have:

dʑ > ʑ > j > ∅
g > ɣ > ɰ > ∅

I'd like to add that some of these changes would be pretty unlikely to occur universally. For instance, g > k probably won't occur between vowels. Make sure to take phonetic environment into account.

[احمکي ارش-ھجن]

I have the fictional race of mine, The Ḵsīnesīr, have a language.

The language I'm working on, Vrkhazhian, is supposed to be a decendant of the Ḵsīnesīr's language.

Problem is, the Ḵsīnesīr biologically don't have lips because they're face is covered in bony-plating!

So, how could the descendant language, which is spoken by humans, generate bilabials and create rounding of vowels (the back vowels in the ancestor are all unrounded, while the descendant has them all rounded)?

There would be intermediate languages in between the Ḵsīnesīr language and Vrkhazhian. It's not direct ancestry.

Still need an answer to this...

[CatDoom]

I have the fictional race of mine, The Ḵsīnesīr, have a language.

The language I'm working on, Vrkhazhian, is supposed to be a decendant of the Ḵsīnesīr's language.

Problem is, the Ḵsīnesīr biologically don't have lips because they're face is covered in bony-plating!

So, how could the descendant language, which is spoken by humans, generate bilabials and create rounding of vowels (the back vowels in the ancestor are all unrounded, while the descendant has them all rounded)?

There would be intermediate languages in between the Ḵsīnesīr language and Vrkhazhian. It's not direct ancestry.

Still need an answer to this...

Well, back vowels and /ɰ/ could spontaneously become rounded; back vowels tend to be rounded cross-linguistically, I think because it makes them more audible and distinct. Consonants before rounded vowels could subsequently become labialized as a minor phonetic detail. After that, labialized velars like [kʷ] could turn into labials, which is an attested sound change in ta number of Oto-Manguean languages. Subsequent vowel shifts could result in them becoming phonemic.

Other labials could, of course, come into the language through borrowing, and new words with labials could arise as compounds of borrowings with Ḵsīnesīr-descended words. Likewise, languages have been known to borrow derivational affixes from one another, and borrowing an affix with a labial could spread labials throughout the language. FInally, the human speakers of Vrkhazhian could innovate new words with labials, particularly "baby talk" words like 'mama' and 'papa' and onomatopoeia like 'bubble'.

[Pogostick Man]

What is the quickest way to go from ʔ to tʃ?

Have it turn into [j] and then fortite. This would probably happen only around front vowels.

[Pole, the]

What is the quickest way to go from ʔ to tʃ?

ʔ → tʃ.

The quickest, not the most plausible, tho.

[WeepingElf]

What is the quickest way to go from ʔ to tʃ?

I would say, via /k/. But this shows the problem with such questions: We need to know which other phonemes exist in the language to come up with a helpful answer. It probably has /k/, which is a very common phoneme, so the change /ʔ/ > /k/ > /tʃ/ would cause problems with old /k/s.

[KathTheDragon]

Is /tl dl/ > /tɬ dɮ/ > /tʃ dʒ/ plausible?

[WeepingElf]

Is /tl dl/ > /tɬ dɮ/ > /tʃ dʒ/ plausible?

I see no problems with that.

[Genome]

What is the quickest way to go from ʔ to tʃ?

I would say, via /k/. But this shows the problem with such questions: We need to know which other phonemes exist in the language to come up with a helpful answer. It probably has /k/, which is a very common phoneme, so the change /ʔ/ > /k/ > /tʃ/ would cause problems with old /k/s.

Here is the phonology:
Consonants: p t k q ʔ s ʃ ɸ h j w
Vowels: i e a o
and
Syllable Structure (just in case): (C)(j/w)V(C)

[Click]

Is word-initial VC → CV (metathesis) plausible?

[Pole, the]

Is /kʰ/ → /kˤ/ plausible?

[Chagen]

I have for Proto-Pasuu a five vowel system of /a i e o u/ each with short, long, and overlong variants. What could I do for a daughterlang?

In Pazmat I kept the short system the same but screwed with the long and overlong systems:
/a: i: e: o: u:/ /e: aw i: a: o:/
/a:: i:: e:: o:: u::/ /ej u: aj oj u:/

In Sefir I merged the long with the short, the long retaining their qualities but the overlongs breaking by acquiring offglides and the short merging quite a bit:
/a i e o u/ /a e a a u/
/a:: i:: e:: o:: u::/ /aj iy ej oj uw/ /aj i ej aj u/

But I'm not sure on what I can do for the third language I want to derive from Proto-Pasuu, Qulshni. I'm not too versed on vowel changes compared to consonant ones.

PP's phonology is explained here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43003

[Pogostick Man]

Is /kʰ/ → /kˤ/ plausible?

I wouldn't say so, unless a change from aspirate to ejective is attested somewhere. Even then, if *kʰ is the only phoneme to change it strikes me as somewhat unnaturalistic.

I have for Proto-Pasuu a five vowel system of /a i e o u/ each with short, long, and overlong variants. What could I do for a daughterlang? [. . .]

If you're going for unconditional changes, vowel length to tone jumped out at me (this appears to have happened in Athabaskan). I'd say keep it a bit more interesting, though, and maybe try for some conditional changes. You could nasalize vowels before prenasalized stops and then have them lower or lengthen after developing offglides while you collapse the rest of your length system.

[WeepingElf]

Is /kʰ/ → /kˤ/ plausible?

I wouldn't say so, unless a change from aspirate to ejective is attested somewhere.

/kˤ/ is not an ejective.

[Chagen]

If you're going for unconditional changes, vowel length to tone jumped out at me (this appears to have happened in Athabaskan). I'd say keep it a bit more interesting, though, and maybe try for some conditional changes. You could nasalize vowels before prenasalized stops and then have them lower or lengthen after developing offglides while you collapse the rest of your length system.

Wow, how did I not think of nasalization...I decided to that for another one of the Pasuu languages, Jawąs/Jawans. Prenasalized aspirates become nasal stops, but the modal prenasalized ones become voiced stops and nasalize the previous vowel (this is phonemic because the pre-nasalized palatalized stops become modal voiced stops as well but don't nasalize the previous vowel). Then /ĩ ẽ ũ õ ã/ > /ẽ ẽ õ ã ã/ Length remains phonemic though. So:

PP *ᵐbʰroⁿd- > Jws. mrąd- (cf. Pazmat bron-, Sefir mron- Qulshni brun-)
PPᵐbʰroⁿdʰ- > Jws. mrod- (cf. Pazmat brod-, Sefir mron-, Qulshni brudh-)

Thanks. I think I'll keep the tone idea for another Pasuu lang.