Sound Change Quickie Thread
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I find DVN DṼND DṼD more plausible than DVN DṼD directly, but I'm hard-pressed to see how they are implausible on their own. Voiced plosives can become nasals and vice-versa without a lot of difficulty if memory serves.
- GreenBowTie
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
what might cause an unvoiced consonant/cluster at the beginning of a word to voice?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Sandhi (Assimilation to voicedness at the end of the previous word, intervocalic position due to previous word ending in a vowel.GreenBowTie wrote:what might cause an unvoiced consonant/cluster at the beginning of a word to voice?
Unconditioned voicing of intitial stops has happened in Turkish (/k/ > /g/, /t/ > /d/).
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
You've also got initial /s/ in German voicing, and dialectically for fricatives in English (no longer productive? fox > vixen). I'm sure I've heard of it elsewhere as well, but examples aren't coming to me. Clusters I'd think would resist voicing unless it includes a sonorant.
- Pogostick Man
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
(Avatar via Happy Wheels Wiki)
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
Index Diachronica PDF v.10.2
Conworld megathread
AVDIO · VIDEO · DISCO
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yeah, and in Dutch it's not just the initial /s/ that got voiced, but initial /f/ did so as well. Compare English fare, Germen fahren, Dutch varen. In contemporary Dutch word initial fricatives have a tendency to devoice, so that <varen> may be pronounced with a [f], but that's a whole nother story.Pogostick Man wrote:Initial voicing basically seems to be plausible.
χʁɵn̩
gʁonɛ̃g
gɾɪ̃slɑ̃
gʁonɛ̃g
gɾɪ̃slɑ̃
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Not saying that this is no valid example, but it's part of a bigger picture, as intervocalic /s/ was voiced as well.vokzhen wrote:You've also got initial /s/ in German voicing,
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Things like aCi > aCʲi > ajC(i) or aCu > aCʷu > auC(u) are attested (e.g. in Avestan, Livonian, and I've seen one proposal that Germanic umlaut also sort of went like this). Quite probably this could also happen in the other direction i.e. iCa >> Cia, uCa >> Cua.Max1461 wrote:How plausible is vowel metastasis across consonants? Things like uCa -> Cua, or uCa -> aCu? What kinds of environment could trigger it?
If you want to limit the extent to which this happens, then e.g. "poorly palatalizable" or "poorly labializable" consonants can block the change:
ali > alʲi > aili > ail, but ari > ar (without **rʲ)
aku > akʷu > auku > auk, but abu > ab (without **bʷ)
I don't know about full metathesis, that seems unlikely to happen as a systematic change.
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
- KathTheDragon
- Smeric
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Isn't there -Cj- > -iC- for some consonants in some Greek dialects (the others typically having -Cj- > -CC-)?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Yep, Greek too.KathAveara wrote:Isn't there -Cj- > -iC- for some consonants in some Greek dialects (the others typically having -Cj- > -CC-)?
[ˌʔaɪsəˈpʰɻ̊ʷoʊpɪɫ ˈʔæɫkəɦɔɫ]
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
uCV iCV > CuV CiV is quite common initially in Paman apparently. In some languages, even /a/ metathesises when followed by /i u/, which then become the corresponding glides, so /ati/ > /tay/.
- KathTheDragon
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How plausible is t,d > tʰ,t > t:,t ?
- StrangerCoug
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I find the tʰ t: change hard to buy unconditionally. Intervocalically, I can see it.
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I got a few questions about vowel mutation.
Does it (the vowel that causes mutation) only affect the previous vowel? Or can it affect a vowel that comes after it?
Does it only make the affected vowel the same quality as itself, or does it just cause, say, fronting and unrounding or backing and rounding, or perhaps it can do either/or?
Could it affect a vowel before it as well as after it?
Does it (the vowel that causes mutation) only affect the previous vowel? Or can it affect a vowel that comes after it?
Does it only make the affected vowel the same quality as itself, or does it just cause, say, fronting and unrounding or backing and rounding, or perhaps it can do either/or?
Could it affect a vowel before it as well as after it?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- StrangerCoug
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
It can affect following vowels as well. If it affects previous vowels, it's called regressive metaphony; if it affects following vowels, you have progressive metaphony.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Does it (the vowel that causes mutation) only affect the previous vowel? Or can it affect a vowel that comes after it?
All of those are quite plausible. Turkish has two types of vowel harmony, you may want to look at how this affects suffixes in the language.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Does it only make the affected vowel the same quality as itself, or does it just cause, say, fronting and unrounding or backing and rounding, or perhaps it can do either/or?
I'm not aware of any attestations thereto.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Could it affect a vowel before it as well as after it?
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
I do believe regressive is far more common, though. I wouldn't be surprised if i-mutation alone makes up the majority of known instances of metaphony, though I myself don't know.StrangerCoug wrote:It can affect following vowels as well. If it affects previous vowels, it's called regressive metaphony; if it affects following vowels, you have progressive metaphony.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Does it (the vowel that causes mutation) only affect the previous vowel? Or can it affect a vowel that comes after it?
From a synchronic point of view some vowel harmony works like this, where the presence of one set of vowels present anywhere in the word affects a change in all other vowels in the word (though afaict basing it off the root is [far] more common). Diachronically, though, I'm not aware of any instances off the top of my head.I'm not aware of any attestations thereto.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Could it affect a vowel before it as well as after it?
- Nortaneous
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
re: aspiration -- no, but if you want something to do with it, look up Monguor. it went #CVCʰV > CʰVCV, #VCʰV > xVCV, but i don't know the details
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
- KathTheDragon
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Is that in response to me?Nortaneous wrote:re: aspiration -- no, but if you want something to do with it, look up Monguor. it went #CVCʰV > CʰVCV, #VCʰV > xVCV, but i don't know the details
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
- Avisaru
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Ah, no, I'm not looking for vowel harmony. I'm doing the mutations for the ablaut that leads to a triconsonsonantal root system.StrangerCoug wrote:It can affect following vowels as well. If it affects previous vowels, it's called regressive metaphony; if it affects following vowels, you have progressive metaphony.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Does it (the vowel that causes mutation) only affect the previous vowel? Or can it affect a vowel that comes after it?All of those are quite plausible. Turkish has two types of vowel harmony, you may want to look at how this affects suffixes in the language.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Does it only make the affected vowel the same quality as itself, or does it just cause, say, fronting and unrounding or backing and rounding, or perhaps it can do either/or?I'm not aware of any attestations thereto.احمک ارش-ھجنو wrote:Could it affect a vowel before it as well as after it?
Something like:
sudan (active present) + e (object pronoun) sudane (passive present) esudane (passive present) suden (passive present), but also nuesudane nisuden (passive past)
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- StrangerCoug
- Avisaru
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
If you're not interested in vowel harmony, then regressive metaphony would probably be your better bet, since I believe vowel harmony usually operates on progressive metaphony.
- احمکي ارش-ھجن
- Avisaru
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Ah, but, I have to use progressive metaphony to get the unmarked active stem CuCaCStrangerCoug wrote:If you're not interested in vowel harmony, then regressive metaphony would probably be your better bet, since I believe vowel harmony usually operates on progressive metaphony.
sodan usodan usudan sudan
menit umenit umunit munit
It has to be this way.
Also, I never asked, but could there be e-mutation and o-mutation? even schwa-mutation?
ʾAšol ḵavad pulqam ʾifbižen lav ʾifšimeḻ lit maseḡrad lav lit n͛ubad. ʾUpulasim ṗal sa-panžun lav sa-ḥadṇ lav ṗal šarmaḵeš lit ʾaẏṭ waẏyadanun wižqanam.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
- Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
How plausible is xl, hl ɬ, noting that several languages that the language is in intimate contact with have /ɬ/.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Extremely.
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Thanks.vokzhen wrote:Extremely.
"But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”
Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread
Would you say that the shifts ç > x and ʃ > x are about equally plausible?