Sound Change Quickie Thread

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Cedh »

sangi39 wrote:Anyway, I want to get rid of the plosive-initial clusters of the language and I think I've come up with 2 solutions (other than the one I posted before):

Pre-Solution: Add epenthetic schwa after word-final clusters then either,
1) Simply remove plosives in coda position and when followed by /r/ or /l/ word initially, or
2) Delete word-final plosives and then analyse plosive-initial clusters as syllable onsets both word-initially and word-internally (with other clusters being divided between syllables with the second plosive element being the onset of the second syllable). Plosive-initial clusters then undergo changes similar to written (classical?) to modern Tibetan (as seen here), e.g. *pr > tr (then to in this case), *kl > l and so on.

I like the idea of 2 (that way I could have fun treating i- and u- initial diphthongs as j- and w-final consonant clusters with similar changes) but I'm note sure about "analyse plosive-initial clusters as syllable onsets" having only come across it briefly here:
Wikipedia wrote:Most commonly, a single consonant between vowels is grouped with the following syllable (i.e. /CV.CV/), while two consonants between vowels are split between syllables (i.e. /CVC.CV/). In some languages, however, such as Old Church Slavonic, any group of consonants that can occur at the beginning of a word is grouped with the following syllable; hence, a word such as pazdva would be syllabified /pa.zdva/.
I don't know if this kind of syllabification can actually have any bearing on future sound changes or not.
Definitely. Some not-so-outlandish natlang examples that come to mind:

- The muta cum liquida rule in Latin: Clusters of a plosive followed by a liquid are syllabified as an onset, which means that the preceding syllable is not "heavy", which means that the word accent may fall on the antepenult instead of the penult. This rule had lots of exceptions, and many words that should have been affected by it eventually developed penultimate stress in all major Romance languages (e.g. Latin INTEGRVM 'whole' /ˈin.te.ɡrum/ > VL *entégro > Spanish entero /en'te.ɾo/, French entier /ɑ̃ˈtje/, Portuguese enteiro /ẽˈtej.ɾʊ/ etc.), but these outcomes would have been quite different if the accent had stayed on the antepenultimate, and while I can't think of any clear examples, I'm sure there are a few words somewhere which actually did retain antepenultimate stress.

- Syllable-final devoicing in contemporary German: In my own idiolect, which is not too far from the standard, intervocalic "muta cum liquida" clusters are almost always syllabified as a coda plosive plus an onset liquid, which means that voiced plosives become voiceless in this position, e.g. abreißen 'rip off' [ˈʔap.ʁaɪ.sn̩]. When preceded by another consonant, the same clusters are syllabified as a complex onset and remain voiced (or at least noticeably lenis), even if the preceding consonant is voiceless: ausbreiten 'spread out' [ˈʔaʊs.bʁaɪ.tn̩]. For me, the coda devoicing rule even applies within a morpheme, e.g. Adler 'eagle' [ˈʔaːt.lɐ] (a word that many other native speakers would syllabify differently, and thus pronounce as [ˈʔaː.dlɐ]). However, it does not apply after the vocalic allophone of coda /ʁ/: verbreiten 'distribute' [fɐˈbʁaɪ.tn̩] (but note that there's a morpheme boundary at the syllable break here; I don't think you can actually have -ʁCR- clusters within a single native morpheme).

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Rekettye »

Any of these implausible (all diachronic)?

p > f / $ [+stress]__
k > x / $ [+stress]__
s > Ø / __ #
as > Ø / [--stress] __ #
dz > ts > tʃ > ʃ
ks > ts
ts > s / __ #
Cl > l / __ $ [--stress]
w > Ø / # __
Cw > C / __ $ [--stress]
a > e / [+stress]
aː > au / __ [+labial]
aː > ai / __ [--labial]
e > a / [+stress]
iː > ei
i > ^j > Ø / [--stress] __ #
u > o / [+stress]
uː > oi
ai > e
au > o
V > ə / [--stress] __ $ [+stress]
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by LinguistCat »

Two things for an odd language I work on occasionally, especially since these are probably both going to be unstable:

Sound changes that produce /T/ and /D/, but are not t > T, s > T, d > D or z > D. I'd be good with an odd sound change that produces one or the other and then voice or devoice it in some environments. I've just had the names in this lang for so long I don't want to change them, but I know /T D/ are rare on Earth. Then again, this isn't for an Earth language, tho it is predominantly spoken by "humans".

Less important, I have plenty of ways to get all of /pt pk tp tk kp kt/ (along with unvoiced fricatives + stops and unvoiced stops + fricatives). But is there any reason /tk/ would not simplify while others would? Or /tk/ and one or two others being kept for a short time while the others simplified?

Thanks for any thoughts on these.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by chris_notts »

vampyre_smiles wrote: Less important, I have plenty of ways to get all of /pt pk tp tk kp kt/ (along with unvoiced fricatives + stops and unvoiced stops + fricatives). But is there any reason /tk/ would not simplify while others would? Or /tk/ and one or two others being kept for a short time while the others simplified?
Well, k͡p and g͡b are fairly common as far as doubly articulated stops go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubly_art ... n_in_stops

That suggests that maybe kp might be more stable than the other combinations in your list.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Rekettye wrote:Any of these implausible (all diachronic)?

p > f / $ [+stress]__
k > x / $ [+stress]__
s > Ø / __ #
as > Ø / [--stress] __ #
dz > ts > tʃ > ʃ
ks > ts
ts > s / __ #
Cl > l / __ $ [--stress]
w > Ø / # __
Cw > C / __ $ [--stress]
a > e / [+stress]
aː > au / __ [+labial]
aː > ai / __ [--labial]
e > a / [+stress]
iː > ei
i > ^j > Ø / [--stress] __ #
u > o / [+stress]
uː > oi
ai > e
au > o
V > ə / [--stress] __ $ [+stress]
Looks all quite plausible. Of course, if you want /dz/ to go to /ʃ/ via /ts/, and /ks/ to /ts/ but not any further, you must keep the two /ts/s apart: by having the /ts/ from /dz/ move on to /tʃ/ before /ks/ becomes /ts/. Phonemes have no memory of what they evolved from ;)
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Rekettye »

WeepingElf wrote: Looks all quite plausible. Of course, if you want /dz/ to go to /ʃ/ via /ts/, and /ks/ to /ts/ but not any further, you must keep the two /ts/s apart: by having the /ts/ from /dz/ move on to /tʃ/ before /ks/ becomes /ts/. Phonemes have no memory of what they evolved from ;)
Thanks. If I remember correctly the dz > ts > tʃ is meant to have occurred before the "Old" lang developed, whilst ks > ts only occurs between "Old" and "Middle", so that should be fine. Reminds me to go back and flesh out the historical section a bit more...
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Tropylium »

vampyre_smiles wrote:Sound changes that produce /T/ and /D/, but are not t > T, s > T, d > D or z > D. I'd be good with an odd sound change that produces one or the other and then voice or devoice it in some environments. I've just had the names in this lang for so long I don't want to change them, but I know /T D/ are rare on Earth. Then again, this isn't for an Earth language, tho it is predominantly spoken by "humans".
I'm assuming ts > tθ > θ also would not do? Perhaps something along any of these lines:
n > ð̃ > ð
ɣʲ > ʝ > ð
ɹ > ɹ̝ > ð
l > ɬ > θ
n > n̥ > θ

Some particular environment development from one of the usual obstruents is what I'd probably use however (eg. Latin had sr > θr).
vampyre_smiles wrote:Less important, I have plenty of ways to get all of /pt pk tp tk kp kt/ (along with unvoiced fricatives + stops and unvoiced stops + fricatives). But is there any reason /tk/ would not simplify while others would? Or /tk/ and one or two others being kept for a short time while the others simplified?
Substrate or contact effects from a population whose language had only /tk/?

Retaining only /tp tk/ would be easy via an intermediate such as *θp θk, after which the two-stop clusters remaining would do whatever, and then these two would snap back to having /t/, but distinguishing between them doesn't really seem like it could have any particularly natural internal motivation. (Finnish, for example, inherits the situation of /tk/-without-/tp/ already from Proto-Uralic.)
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Tropylium »

Rekettye wrote:Any of these implausible (all diachronic)?
All are plausible, if occasionally unusual. The two I'd pick out as the oddest are these:
Rekettye wrote:as > Ø / [--stress] __ #
u > o / [+stress]
For the 1st… segments don't get lost in series of 2; but something like a > ə / _C#, s > ∅ / _#, ə > ∅ / _# of course would work easily — as would various kinds of analogy, in case this is a specific grammatical ending.
For the 2nd, my impression is that this is typically an unconditional change (as in Romance) that may however be followed by raising of unstress'd /o/ > /u/ (as in various Iberian Romance varieties). It also tends to go hand in hand with i > e (which is also suggested by iː uː > ei oi).
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by LinguistCat »

chris_notts wrote:
vampyre_smiles wrote: Less important, I have plenty of ways to get all of /pt pk tp tk kp kt/ (along with unvoiced fricatives + stops and unvoiced stops + fricatives). But is there any reason /tk/ would not simplify while others would? Or /tk/ and one or two others being kept for a short time while the others simplified?
Well, k͡p and g͡b are fairly common as far as doubly articulated stops go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubly_art ... n_in_stops

That suggests that maybe kp might be more stable than the other combinations in your list.
Yeah I was thinking about that, so I might have those too... And just say that /tk/ is only found in fossilized form in names.
Tropylium wrote:
vampyre_smiles wrote:Sound changes that produce /T/ and /D/, but are not t > T, s > T, d > D or z > D. I'd be good with an odd sound change that produces one or the other and then voice or devoice it in some environments. I've just had the names in this lang for so long I don't want to change them, but I know /T D/ are rare on Earth. Then again, this isn't for an Earth language, tho it is predominantly spoken by "humans".
I'm assuming ts > tθ > θ also would not do? Perhaps something along any of these lines:
n > ð̃ > ð
ɣʲ > ʝ > ð
ɹ > ɹ̝ > ð
l > ɬ > θ
n > n̥ > θ

Some particular environment development from one of the usual obstruents is what I'd probably use however (eg. Latin had sr > θr).
vampyre_smiles wrote:Less important, I have plenty of ways to get all of /pt pk tp tk kp kt/ (along with unvoiced fricatives + stops and unvoiced stops + fricatives). But is there any reason /tk/ would not simplify while others would? Or /tk/ and one or two others being kept for a short time while the others simplified?
Substrate or contact effects from a population whose language had only /tk/?

Retaining only /tp tk/ would be easy via an intermediate such as *θp θk, after which the two-stop clusters remaining would do whatever, and then these two would snap back to having /t/, but distinguishing between them doesn't really seem like it could have any particularly natural internal motivation. (Finnish, for example, inherits the situation of /tk/-without-/tp/ already from Proto-Uralic.)
I like quite a few of the sound changes for /T D/. I'll probably go with something for word final and something else word-internally. I don't think I have anything with either sound word initially.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by tezcatlip0ca »

What could be a plausible parent phoneme for [n], [ʃ] and [dʲ]?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Thry »

d + welsh ll? If it needs to be one, welsh ll, explain dj through fortition ll > dll > dl > dj
ll > l > n is easy enough and ll > sh is plausilble IMO.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

n̰, and your coronal nasals are laminal postalveolar
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by tezcatlip0ca »

Nortaneous wrote:n̰, and your coronal nasals are laminal postalveolar
What do you mean? A creaky-voiced n? How does that even give anything not covered by a regular n?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

presumably you don't want to lose /n/ to get /dʲ/, and glottalized nasal -> voiced stop is attested. but i'm not sure how to get /ʃ/ from that.

maybe a voiceless prestopped nasal /tn̥/, or a prenasalized stop /nt/ or /ntʃ/, or a prenasalized fricative /nʃ/ (this is what i'd go with if i were you -- something similar is reconstructed for chinese, for cases where some dialects have fricatives and others have nasals)
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Kezdő »

I'm trying to derive two languages from a common ancestor. There'll be two others to be worked out later as well. Any ideas for a rather open inventory? I'm thinking of [ᴚ] for some solutions.

Zabantun (a.k.a. Old Xšazaric)
/m, n/
/p b, t, d, k, g/
/ɸ, β, θ, ð, s, z, ʃ, ʒ, x/
/tʃ, dʒ, xʃ or ɧ/
/j, h/
/ɾ/
/l/

/i, u/
/ɛ/
/a/

Old Qoheric
/m, n, ɲ, ŋ/
/p, b, t, d, c, ɟ, k, g, q, ɢ/
/f, v, θ, ð, s, z, ʃ, ʒ, ç, ʝ, x, ɣ, χ, h/
/j/
/r/
/ɾ/
/l, ʎ/

/i, u/
/a/

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Tropylium »

Just comparing inventories will not limit much the reconstruction. This might be the simplest outline possible though:

/m n/
/p t k q/
/b d g ɢ/
/ɸ θ s x χ h/
/β ð z ɣ/
/l ɾ j/
/i a u/
"palatal factor" *J (could be something like i-umlaut, CjV clusters, or just plain *ɛ)

Zabantun:
- introduction of /ɧ/
- velars > postalveolars
-- with x ɣ > ɧ j
- uvulars > velars
-*J >> ɛ (most likely from *a, if a split)
- conditional palatalization s z > ʃ ʒ (conditions might differ from those in Qh; or you could just have shibilants already in the protolang)

Qoheric:
- ɸ β > f v
- introduction of *r *ŋ (one idea that comes to mind that will easily reproduce the lack of /ɴ/ is simplification of a series of clusters *mβ *nð *nz *ŋɣ, with the first two merging to m n; you could also add them to the protolang and delete them in some way in Zb.)
- conditional palatalization of consonants:
-- velars > palatals
-- s z > ʃ ʒ
-- l > ʎ
- vowel changes to taste if you want palatalized consonants to occur before back vowels (eg. Zb /tʃɛ dʒɛ/ etc. might correspond to Qh /ca ɟa/ etc.)

---

As for this:
Aiďos wrote:What could be a plausible parent phoneme for [n], [ʃ] and [dʲ]?
The simplest solution might be *nʲ:
1) *nʲ > *n
2) *nʲ > *ndʲ > dʲ
3) ... dʲ > *dʒ > *ʒ > ʃ (or if that route's out of the question, something like *ndʲ >> nʒ >> ʃ )

If you wanted /dʲ/ or /ʃ/ as the outgroup, that'd probably take something more complicated.
Nortaneous wrote:a prenasalized stop /nt/ or /ntʃ/, or a prenasalized fricative /nʃ/ (this is what i'd go with if i were you -- something similar is reconstructed for chinese, for cases where some dialects have fricatives and others have nasals
I'd expect that reconstruction to rely on on having an entire series of nasal/fric correspondences, tho.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

when Middle Chinese is reconstructed with prenasalized consonants it's only /mv/ and some sort of postalveolar thing I think
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Qwynegold »

Rekettye wrote:a > e / [+stress]
e > a / [+stress]
I think this might be problematic. You're either undoing an earlier sound change, or making two phonemes swap places with each other. Either way is odd.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Rekettye »

Yeah I'll have to rethink this.
Qwynegold wrote:
Rekettye wrote:a > e / [+stress]
e > a / [+stress]
I think this might be problematic. You're either undoing an earlier sound change, or making two phonemes swap places with each other. Either way is odd.
That's exactly what I was doing - making them swap places. Without thinking too much. What I should do is draw out the vowel space and sketch out the "drag" effects of vowel shift - I'll get right on that.
Tropylium wrote:For the 1st… segments don't get lost in series of 2; but something like a > ə / _C#, s > ∅ / _#, ə > ∅ / _# of course would work easily — as would various kinds of analogy, in case this is a specific grammatical ending.
Precisely - this is the Lithuanian -as noun ending, which I want to get rid of. Either it could have simply -s in the proto-lang (i.e. the vowel could have been dropped already as in Latvian) and then it would be covered by s > ∅ / _#, or some form of analogy as you say.
Tropylium wrote:For the 2nd, my impression is that this is typically an unconditional change (as in Romance) that may however be followed by raising of unstress'd /o/ > /u/ (as in various Iberian Romance varieties). It also tends to go hand in hand with i > e (which is also suggested by iː uː > ei oi).
This is the same issue Qwynegold raised about the vowel shift, which I'll have a head-scratch about.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Rekettye »

Does anyone think the following (deliberately unstable) vowel system could come about:

/i u ɑ ɛ ɤ~o ø̞ə/

The idea is that */e/ lowered to /ɛ/ and */ø:/ to /ø̞/ with a schwa offglide (not sure how to fit the centralising bit in though). This is putting pressure on /ɤ~o/ which historically was */ɤ/ and is gradually shifting to /o/. There is also rounding harmony...

Plausible?
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Thry »

Why not, look at Bulgarian.

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Bob Johnson »

Rekettye wrote:/i u ɑ ɛ ɤ~o ø̞ə/

The idea is that */e/ lowered to /ɛ/ and */ø:/ to /ø̞/ with a schwa offglide
Was there only one long vowel? If not, what happened to them?

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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Rekettye »

Bob Johnson wrote:Was there only one long vowel? If not, what happened to them?
I don't know yet. Maybe I should make the system /i i: u u: ɑ ɑ: ɛ ɛ: ɤ~o ɤ:~o: ø̞ ø̞ə/? Or make all the long vowels diphthongs with offglides? It isn't quite as interesting then though.

Or perhaps it could be explained by something like reanalysis of long vowels into sequences of two of the same vowel - that's what the current system is meant to be, i.e. /uu/ realised as [u:]. In that case, maybe I should make it simply /ø̞/ which, when doubled, is realised as a diphthong with a schwa offglide.

Or maybe something to do with stress - it could be that all vowels were long in stressed syllables, and at that point the /ø/ vowel became /øə/ when stressed. After the length distinction was lost, the "long" form /ø̞ə/ was what remained.

Or, boringly, just add /e/ and get rid of the schwa offglide.

EDIT: OTOH, it might be possible to end up with /ø̞ə/ without it starting as a long vowel */ø:/ - maybe the offglide developed through coalescence, or consonant deletion.
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by Nate »

Are the following sound changes realistic? The changes are for a romlang idea. And would it be realistic for these to be the only instances of æ, œ, and y? The instances would be widespread (mostly in the accusative case), but restricted to these positions.

a → ə → œ̃ /_N(C)# (probably not going to use this one, but I'm curious)
aː → ã /_N(C)#
e → ɛ → æ̃ /_N(C)#
eː → e → ɛ /_N(C)#
i → ỹ /_N(C)#
iː → i /_N(C)#
u → œ̃ /_N(C)#
uː → u /_N(C)#
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Re: Sound Change Quickie Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Nate wrote:Are the following sound changes realistic? The changes are for a romlang idea. And would it be realistic for these to be the only instances of æ, œ, and y? The instances would be widespread (mostly in the accusative case), but restricted to these positions.

a → ə → œ̃ /_N(C)# (probably not going to use this one, but I'm curious)
aː → ã /_N(C)#
e → ɛ → æ̃ /_N(C)#
eː → e → ɛ /_N(C)#
i → ỹ /_N(C)#
iː → i /_N(C)#
u → œ̃ /_N(C)#
uː → u /_N(C)#
What bugs me is that /æ/, /œ/ and /y/ only occur nasalizedly. You should also have unnasalized /æ/, /œ/ and /y/, I think. Languages tend to have fewer nasalized than unnasalized vowels, not more. And why does /a:/ nasalize while the other long vowels don't?
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

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