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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:22 am 
Smeric
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Thanks.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:09 pm 
Avisaru
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Suppose I have a conculture where a significant minority speaks a conlang (let's call it Language A for the purposes of this question) with a (C)V(C) syllable structure whose consonant inventory is pretty much Skolt Sami plus /ʔ θ ç h/, but has only /a ə ɨ/ for its phonemic vowels. It's in contact with speakers of the conculture's majority language (call it language B), which has /a e i ə ɨ o u/ for its vowel inventory and otherwise isn't structurally far off from SAE. What allophonic processes are plausible for Language A that might cause speakers of Language B to perceive backness distinctions that don't really exist in Language A? (In other words, what might cause Language B's speakers to hear Language A's /ə/ as closer to a Language B /e/ or /o/, and similarly for Language A's /ɨ/?)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:32 pm 
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StrangerCoug wrote:
Suppose I have a conculture where a significant minority speaks a conlang (let's call it Language A for the purposes of this question) with a (C)V(C) syllable structure whose consonant inventory is pretty much Skolt Sami plus /ʔ θ ç h/, but has only /a ə ɨ/ for its phonemic vowels. It's in contact with speakers of the conculture's majority language (call it language B), which has /a e i ə ɨ o u/ for its vowel inventory and otherwise isn't structurally far off from SAE. What allophonic processes are plausible for Language A that might cause speakers of Language B to perceive backness distinctions that don't really exist in Language A? (In other words, what might cause Language B's speakers to hear Language A's /ə/ as closer to a Language B /e/ or /o/, and similarly for Language A's /ɨ/?)


Fronting when adjacent to palatals, rounding when adjacent to labials, backing adjacent to velars (less likely; I think this is attested but I'm not certain, it would certainly make sense).

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:07 pm 
Smeric
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Sounds that velar to glottal and in between tend to cause backing, while sounds that have some palatal quality tend to front. Labials cause rounding.

These are just tendencies though: Velars are less likely to cause backing than uvulars and other sounds further back, and think I saw at least one natlang grammar that said uvulars caused rounded front vowels!

[h] already exists as an allophone of /x/.

Here's an example I made up:
  1. After /p b m f v/ ⟶ [ɒ̈ ɵ̞ ʉ]
    Before /t d n t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ s z θ ð r l/ ⟶ [ä ə ɨ]
    Before /ʃ ʒ j/ ⟶ [a e̞ i]
    Before /c ɟ ɲ ʃ ʒ ç ʝ ʎ/ ⟶ [ɛ e i2]
    Before /k ɡ ʔ ŋ x ɣ h w/ ⟶ [ɑ ɤ̞ ɯ]
    Before /w/ ⟶ [ɒ o̞ u]
    So now we have /ɨ/ [i i2 ɨ ʉ ɯ u], /ə/ [e e̞ ə ɵ̞ ɤ̞ o̞] and /ä/ [ɛ a ä ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
  2. After nothing ⟶ [ɪ i ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ u e e̞ ə ɵ̞ ɤ̞ o̞ ɛ æ ä ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
    After /p b t d k ɡ ʔ/ ⟶ [i i ɨ ʉ ɯ u e e ɘ ɵ ɤ o ɛ æ ɐ ɞ̞ ʌ̞ ɔ̞]
    After /c ɟ/ ⟶ [i i i y ɯ̈ ü e e e ø ɤ̈ ö ɛ æ æ ɶ̽ ɑ̽ ɒ̽]
    After /m n ŋ r l/ ⟶ [i̞ i ɨ ʉ ɯ u e e̞ ɜ ɞ ʌ ɔ ɛ æ ɐ ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
    After /ɲ/⟶ [i i y ɯ̈ ü e e ë ø̈ ɤ̞̈ ö̞ ɛ æ æ̈ ɶ ɑ̈ ɒ̈2
    After /t͡s d͡z t͡ʃ d͡ʒ s z ʃ ʒ f v θ ð x ɣ h/ ⟶ [i̞ i ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ ʊ e̞ e̞ ɜ ɞ ʌ ɔ æ a ä ɒ̈ ɑ ɒ]
    After /ʃ ʒ ç ʝ j ʎ/ ⟶ [i ɪ ʏ ɯ̽ ʊ e e ë ø̈ ɤ̞̈ ö̞ ɛ a a ɶ ɑ̈ ɒ̈2
    After /w/ ⟶ [i̞ i ɪ̈ u u u e̞ e̞ ɜ ɔ ɔ ɔ æ a ä ɒ ɒ ɒ]
  3. Assume [i ɨ y ɪ ʏ ɪ̈ e ø ë ø̈ ɘ e̞ ə ɛ ɜ æ æ̈ a ä] as Group 1 and the other values as Group 2
    All vowels in Group 2 become Group 1 vowels if the first vowel of the word is a Group 1 vowel and vice versa
  4. Language B borrows the word
    [i y ɨ ʉ ɯ̈ ü ɯ u ɪ ʏ ɪ̈ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ ʊ e ø ë ø̈ ɘ ɤ̈ ö ɤ o e̞ ə ɵ̞ ɤ̞̈ ö̞ ɤ̞ o̞ ɛ ɜ æ æ̈ ɶ̽ ɐ ɞ̞ ɑ̽ ɒ̽ ʌ̞ ɔ̞ a ɶ ä ɒ̈ ɑ̈ ɒ̈2 ɑ ɒ] ⟶ /i i~u ɨ u ɨ u i u ɨ u ɨ u ɨ u e ə e~ə ə ə ə o ə o e ə ə ə o e ə ä ä ə ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä ä/

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Last edited by mèþru on Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:16 pm 
Avisaru
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mèþru wrote:
[h] already exists as an allophone of /x/.

I had intended /h/ and /x/ to be separate phonemes, but hey, maybe they merge at some point :P

Edited to add: Or even better, Language B speakers can't hear the difference between /x/ and /h/ and they get merged when it makes it way over to Language B. I'm not willing to say no...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:37 pm 
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Edited post

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:10 pm 
Avisaru
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When it comes to bilabial trills, I know they can originate from /b/ before rounded vowels and from /mb/ clusters, but does the alternative origin of bilabial stop + flap/trill sound reasonable as well?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:55 pm 
Smeric
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Sure

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:50 am 
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How would I be able to make /ɹ̩/ and /az/ cognates?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:12 am 
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احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:
How would I be able to make /ɹ̩/ and /az/ cognates?

Language A: *əz > əɹ > ɹ̩
Language B: *əz > az

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Most lenitions of /s/ seem to take /z/ or /h/ as initial pathways; i.e.

/s/ > /h/ > /∅/
/s/ > /z/ > /ʐ/ or /r/ or /ɹ/

Can anyone think of any other outcomes for lenited /s/, or any other initial pathways? Especially in a voiced environment?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:15 pm 
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How would you approach the following ones?

/k/ → /tsk/ // V[+short]_{a o u}, V[+short]_$
/k/ → /ts/ // _{a o u}
/θ/ → /tx/
/ks/ → /x/

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:32 pm 
Smeric
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Pole, the wrote:
How would you approach the following ones?
/θ/ → /tx/

θ ---> ṭ (dental) ---> t (known from some AmEng dialects) ---> tʰ ----> tx
Any preeixisting /t/ would have to be sheltered from the change by a Duke-of-York sound shift, since /tx/ without bare /t/ would be very peculiar.
Quote:
/ks/ → /x/

Similar. ks----> kx ("strongly aspirated" ) -----> x


Others not likely without similar shifts affecting /k/ in other environments. How big is the pohonology?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:40 pm 
Smeric
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Soap wrote:
Others not likely without similar shifts affecting /k/ in other environments. How big is the pohonology?

It looks roughly like that:
/m n/
/p b t d (tʃ) k ɡ/
/f v (θ) s z (ʃ) x/
/l r j w/

Later on, /tʃ ʃ/ → /tʃˠ ʃˠ/ → /tsx sx/.

Edit:
Would it be plausible to have /θ/ → (fortition) /tθ/ → /tx/ instead?

And also /k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:15 pm 
Lebom
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Pole, the wrote:
Soap wrote:
Others not likely without similar shifts affecting /k/ in other environments. How big is the pohonology?

It looks roughly like that:
/m n/
/p b t d (tʃ) k ɡ/
/f v (θ) s z (ʃ) x/
/l r j w/

Later on, /tʃ ʃ/ → /tʃˠ ʃˠ/ → /tsx sx/.

Edit:
Would it be plausible to have /θ/ → (fortition) /tθ/ → /tx/ instead?

And also /k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?

How about /kː ɡː/ → /t͡ʃk d͡ʒg/ // [V +front]_, followed by /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ → /t͡s d͡z/? You don't need intermediate steps for /tʃ ʃ/ → /tsx sx/, [t͡s] and [t͡ʃ] are in free variation in some Dravid language I can't remember.





Given that vowels have inherent slight tone differences - going from highest to lowet [i] [ɛ] [a] [ɔ] [u] - how likely is that tone difference of a second unstressed vowel turning into pitch accent, while the vowels themselve reducing to [ɪ] [ɐ] [ʊ]? A quite common word type is CV(J)CV, stress is on first syllable.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:57 pm 
Avisaru
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احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:
How would I be able to make /ɹ̩/ and /az/ cognates?

Boring but straightforward version: /ɹ̩/ < *ɹ̩z > /az/.

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Can anyone think of any other outcomes for lenited /s/, or any other initial pathways? Especially in a voiced environment?

Nganasan has /j/ as the voiced alternant of /s/ (the other pairs are /h/ : /b/, /t/ : /ð/, /k/ : /g/). This is from earlier palatal *ś, though.

Pole, the wrote:
/k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?

Geminate dissimilation is not really a thing that happens.

For a bit more of a roundabout, this should be workable: kː gː > ʰkː ɠ > hk ʔg > hk ɦg > xk ɣg > çk ʝg > tɕk dʑg > tsk dg.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Tropylium wrote:
Pole, the wrote:
/k ɡ/ → /kː ɡː/ // [V+short]_ → (dissimilation) /tk dɡ/ → /tsk dɡ/?

Geminate dissimilation is not really a thing that happens.

It might be anecdotal, but Polish miękki, lekki → dialectal/colloquial miętki, letki.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:10 pm 
Smeric
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What about
kː ɡː → k.k ɡ.ɡ → t.k d.ɡ

Although I think that either both voiced and voiceless plosives should affricate or neither do.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:44 pm 
Smeric
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I think I could see that happening.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:13 pm 
Smeric
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Pole, the wrote:
Would it be plausible to have /θ/ → (fortition) /tθ/ → /tx/ instead?
?
yes, I should've thought of that first,sorry.

I'm on phone only for time being,sorry for messy typing.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:57 am 
Avisaru
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Has there been recorded an unconditional change of [ɔ/o] to [œ/ø]?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:26 pm 
Lebom
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ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:
Has there been recorded an unconditional change of [ɔ/o] to [œ/ø]?


More or less, yes, at least if it's part of a larger vowel system where there's another shorter/laxer o-like consonant. E.g. in some English varieties, such as the Baltimore dialect, /oʊ/ is fronted almost all the way to /øʊ/ or even /eʊ/. Meanwhile the shorter, laxer /ɔ/ stays behind. This is because long vowels tend to front or be raised.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:16 pm 
Avisaru
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So, is there a possibility it'd become fronted without any other o-like vowel? I'm thinking of something similar to the change in French from [u] to [y].

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:15 pm 
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What are ways to develop word-initial geminates of obstruents (although they would be phonetically realized as tense)? Looking mostly for /p t d k s/.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:21 pm 
Smeric
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احمکي ارش-ھجن wrote:
What are ways to develop word-initial geminates of obstruents (although they would be phonetically realized as tense)? Looking mostly for /p t d k s/.

The easiest way is probably Sandhi.


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