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zompist bboard • View topic - Sound Change Quickie Thread

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:05 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:58 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:10 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:06 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:01 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:11 am 
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Just that was my train of thought; but as discussed above, the Germanic and Italic developments can be explained without assuming that the *Dh set was realized differently in NW IE than in Greco-Aryan. That dialectal division is of course not impossible, but the evidence is not all that forceful, and it is more parsimonious not to assume it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:13 pm 
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The Sphinx language only had eight vowels (red text below), similar to its descendant—Intergalactic Standard (green text below). Would the changes involved have been logical, noting the related processes in parentheses?

[äɑ] (backing)
[ɛe] (closing)
[ʏi] (closing, fronting, unrounding)
[ɔo] (closing)
[ɯu] (rounding)
[äʏ̯ɑi] (centering?, closing, unrounding)
[äɯ̯ɑu] (backing, rounding)
[ɔʏ̯oi] (closing, fronting, unrounding)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:43 am 
Avisaru
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Those sound changes make perfect sense.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 am 
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Indeed, the sound changes make perfect sense in the sense that they're rebalancing a wildly unnatural inventory; having front-rounded and back-unrounded close vowels but not front-unrounded and back-rounded is highly unnatural.

As sound changes go though they are by no means the most radical you could be; there's far more you could do, like stress-based hanky-panky, umlaut and the like. Just check out Proto-Uralic to Saamic for the of the craziest stuff to ever happen with vowels you'll ever see.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:50 am 
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It is no secret to anyone that the current vowel system of English - both General American and RP - is chronologically unstable, but what stable systems can it potentially evolve or collapse into, aside from the standard /i e a o u/?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:38 am 
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@Knit Tie
See thread

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:53 am 
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The AmEng dialects that have managed to avoid the NCVS and the cot-caught merger have systems that aren't too unstable. Estonian with the rhotic vowel instead of the two front rounded vowels, essentially. Plenty of room for the diphthongs to bounce around and provide sociolinguistic distinctions without major restructuring. Might see more consonant shifts.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:37 am 
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Christ, you're right! GA English vowel systems without the two sound changes you mentioned really do look semi-stable and symmetrical, a la Maasai with one extra rhotic vowel, so it doesn't look to me like anything major is going to happen to them. Do you think nothing at all will change in the forseeable future, though, or we will still see some minor changes like the arrangement of all vowels into tense-lax pairs or the loss of near-close vowels?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:55 pm 
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Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:16 pm 
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new maxim: all discussions of historical phonology eventually degenerate into being about either the PIE stop system or about the English vowel system (and, apparently, sometimes both).

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:31 am 
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Speaking of vowel shifts, does anyone have information on the Latin -> Old French vowel shift? Index Diachronica has a list, but it's hard to try to model anything on it.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:44 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:10 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:36 am 
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:-D
Does the maxim apply when the discussion is not in English?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:24 am 
Lebom
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So I have this phonology:

/m mˤ n n̪ˤ/
/p pˤ b bˤ t t̪ˤ d d̪ˤ k g q (ʔ)/
/f fˤ v vˤ s s̪ˤ z z̪ˤ ʃ ʃˤ ʒ ʒˤ χ h ħ ʕ/
/l l̪ˤ ɾ ɾ̪ˤ/
/w j/
/i ɛ u ɑ/

And I want to eliminate all the pharyngealised consonants in a naturalistic-feeling way while keeping the number of phonemes as high as possible. So far, my idea was first to go to this, where the non-emphatic alveolar fricatives palatalise and push all the postalveolars together into /ɬ/ and /g/ becomes /ʁ/:

/m mˤ n n̪ˤ/
/p pˤ b bˤ t t̪ˢˤ d d̪ᶻˤ k q (ʔ)/
/f fˤ v vˤ ʃ s̪ˤ ʒ z̪ˤ ɬ χ ʁ h ħ ʕ/
/l ɮ̪ˤ ɾ ʒˤ/
/w j/
/i ɛ u ɑ/

And then to this, where the emphatic /n/ velarises, /ɮ̪ˤ/ merges with /l/, /ʒˤ/ with /ʒ/ and /ɬ/ with /s̪/.

/m n ŋ/
/p pˤ b bˤ t̪ t̪s̪ˤ d̪ d̪z̪ˤ k q (ʔ)/
/f fˤ v vˤ ʃ s̪ ʒ z̪ χ ʁ h ħ ʕ/
/l~ɮ ɾ/
/w j/
/i ɛ u ɑ/

What do you think?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:06 pm 
Smeric
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Most of it looks fine to me, but I have a bit of trouble buying /n̪ˤ/ > /ŋ/. Why not /n/ > /ɲ/, /n̪ˤ/ > /n/. If you don't like /ɲ/, it could easily become /j/ or even /ŋ/.

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