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zompist bboard • View topic - Sound Change Quickie Thread

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:01 am 
Lebom
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Intergalactic Standard and Baikal have merged [ʁ ɹ l] into [ʟ̠]. What effect would that have on [ɬ]? According to , the resulting change doesn't have a letter and may be completely unattested. Also, [r] has merged into [ʀ] due to the loss of [ɹ].


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:14 am 
Smeric
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I doubt [ʟ̠] is stable as a phoneme anyway. It probably shift to a velar and pair with /ʟ̝̊/

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:25 am 
Sumerul
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I likewise highly doubt [ʟ̠] would exist for long, and question the likelihood of a sound change that would produce it in the first place. Same thing with its voiceless fricative counterpart.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:35 am 
Lebom
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Okay. Then, the merger will have been [ɹ l ʟ→ʁ].

Reposting the following because the original was lost in the shuffle of another conversation:
For a bit of context, <nk ng> assimilate into [ŋ] word-finally and preceding a word-final [ɑ o u] in Intergalactic Standard. If this would create minimal pairs, the words retain their former <nk ng> spellings, as opposed to the shortened <n> spellings of unpaired words. Would [ni→ɲ] preceding a word-final [ɑ o u] be a logical progression as well?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:45 am 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:07 pm 
Lebom
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Is it possible to somehow turn palatals into retroflexes, or vice versa?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:54 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:25 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:40 pm 
Smeric
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Machvano Vlax Romani has /t͡ʃʰ/ > [ʈr] and /d͡ʒ/ > [ɖr].


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:11 pm 
Sumerul
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Palatals became apical postalveolar in Mandarin, and Slavic has apical postalveolars as outcomes of palatalizing sound changes.

Aren't true retroflexes very rare outside Dravidian? And do they ever contrast with apical postalveolars?

A voiceless velar lateral fricative is attested in a few languages in New Guinea. As for where to go from there, Hiw developed gL\) from *r and is currently merging it into G, so L\_0 L\ > x G seems reasonable. But you wouldn't have so many consonants merging into velar laterals, much less postvelar. Maybe K l > s` r\, r\ > L\; could also have s` > L\_0.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:12 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:40 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:11 am 
Lebom
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To continue bothering people with my conlang, would you say that /ʕ/ and /ʁ/ merging together into /ɰ/, which then subsequently becomes /ə̯/ in coda to form centralising diphthongs is plausible? Also, how can you turn /ʃ/ and /ʒ/ into /s̪/ through an intermediate without using /ɬ/, and what can you do with /ɫ̪ˤ/ and /ɾ̪ˤ/ that isn't too outlandish aside from merging them with regular liquids?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:21 am 
Smeric
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Is the dental flap a variant of the coronal, always pharyngealizedm? I think that the pharyngealization would stick around longer than the dental articulation.


Spanish did something very similar with its sibilants....
The palatal sibilants turned into apical sounds, which skipped past the alveolar sound and into the dental.

÷÷÷÷÷




Neither my phone nor my pc is capable of adding "pharyngealization " to its dictionary, I'm guessing it hits a limit of number of letters. Sorry for persistent typos.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:51 pm 
Lebom
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The dental flap is indeed a variant of the coronal, and I'm trying to get rid of the pharyngealised series as a whole.

As for the postalveolars, I'm afraid simply shifting them to /s̪/ won't work, as I'm trying to, essentially, have /s/ and /ʃ/ switch places. Or did you mean something else by that Spanish example?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:57 pm 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:49 am 
Sumerul
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s > θ (Zhuang, Turkmen, Burmese)
ʃ > s
θ > ʃ (Biblical Hebrew)

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:40 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:50 pm 
Smeric
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What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:00 pm 
Lebom
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:56 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:32 am 
Lebom
Lebom

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[Redacted for further discussion in my inventory questions topic.]


Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:19 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:57 am 
Sumerul
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apparently Mandan did that

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:06 am 
Lebom
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Would it be possible, in some hypothetical future variety of English, for methathesis to occur thay would switch syllabic sonoranit into the coda of the preceding syllable, e.g.:

castle /kʰæsɫ̩/ → /kʰæɫs/
nation /neɪ̯ʃn̩/ → /neɪ̯nʃ/
acre /eɪ̯ʔkɻ̩/ → /eɪ̯ɻʔk/

Or should I go for something more indirect, e.g.:

castle /kʰæsɫ̩/ → /kʰæsɫə/ → /kʰæɫsə/ → /kʰæɫs/
or castle /kʰæsɫ̩/ → /kʰæsəɫ/ → /kʰæsɫə/ → /'kʰæɫsə/ → /kʰæɫs/?

I've also got another question: what conditional sound changes do people here like the most? I've been trying to put some in my conlang's diachronica, but I don't know which ones to choose.


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