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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:16 am 
Sumerul
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Sotho has *MP *MB > p_h p_>.

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:31 am 
Smeric
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Ideas:
Glottalisation/pharyngealisation of plosives followed by rhinoglottophilia.
C > /h/ > /h̃/
/h/ + vowel > /h/ + nasal vowel, followed by the transfer of nasalisation to the next consonant

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:19 pm 
Sumerul
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Didn't Basque have something like *VnV > *Vh̃V > VV̯n?

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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:49 pm 
Smeric
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Does this set of changes look legit?

pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:02 pm 
Smeric
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It does to me. As I understand it, preaspiration isn't very common, but I think those changes are still plausible.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:39 pm 
Smeric
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I'm curious about the assymetry between ʰp > x and ʰt > θ in _[C#]. Any particular reason?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:24 pm 
Smeric
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It looks wrong to me for the same reason.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:26 pm 
Smeric
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I didn't even notice that. Oops.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:19 pm 
Smeric
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KathTheDragon wrote:
I'm curious about the assymetry between ʰp > x and ʰt > θ in _[C#]. Any particular reason?

I had two thoughts in that regard:

1. I wanted /ɸ/ to be asymmetric in the group: where /θ x/ can occur in isolation (somewhat more frequently than these three sound changes suggest due to some later sound changes), /ɸ/ always occurs in the cluster /xɸ/.
2. I found acoustically /xɸ/ very easily elided into /x/ in these contexts, whereas /xθ/ seemed to favor /θ/--not very scientific, but it "felt right" to my tongue, if you will.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:24 pm 
Smeric
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I've tested number 2 on myself and found it isn't true for me.

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ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:56 pm 
Smeric
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I want a pushchain of kʷ > k > ć > č > t > ṭ > pʲ > p > pʷ ... for a vertical vowel inventory. /pʲ/ i slabiodental and therefore has to be spread-lipped, which causes a similar sound to palatalization and is seen as the same by the speakers. ṭ is true dental. I dont see any reason why not to do thius since every indicular link in the chain is attested and there would be very few coalescences (/pʷ/ was rare) but IM not sure mouth shape can change as fluidly as does tongue poisition.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:31 pm 
Avisaru
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Zaarin wrote:
Does this set of changes look legit?

pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V

Preaspiration to /x/ is reasonable, but intermediate *xp *xt fricativizing further seems odd. Clusters like these seem to often resist even fairly general fricativization. Compare Proto-Germanic: *pt *kt > *ft *xt and not **fθ **xθ, or modern Greek: φθ χθ: pʰtʰ kʰtʰ > fθ xθ > ft xt.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:07 pm 
Avisaru
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Is it plausible to split a uvular series off from a velar series? If so, how?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:30 pm 
Sumerul
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StrangerCoug wrote:
Is it plausible to split a uvular series off from a velar series? If so, how?

Sure - back velar consonants adjacent to back or more specifically low back vowels, then do something that removes the conditioning environment, e.g. merging low back and low front vowels.

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Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:06 pm 
Smeric
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Tropylium wrote:
Zaarin wrote:
Does this set of changes look legit?

pʰ > ʰp > xɸ, x _[C#]
tʰ > ʰt > xθ, θ _[C#]
kʰ > ʰk > xː > x, xk V_V

Preaspiration to /x/ is reasonable, but intermediate *xp *xt fricativizing further seems odd. Clusters like these seem to often resist even fairly general fricativization. Compare Proto-Germanic: *pt *kt > *ft *xt and not **fθ **xθ, or modern Greek: φθ χθ: pʰtʰ kʰtʰ > fθ xθ > ft xt.

Hmm, that is a fair point.

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What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?”


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:46 am 
Lebom
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Would it be possible to have sound changes first result in /s̺ z̺/ > /ʃ ʒ/, and then have /ʒ dz/ > /z/, so that the most common sibilants in the language are /ʃ/ and /z/?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:24 am 
Smeric
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Knit Tie wrote:
Would it be possible to have sound changes first result in /s̺ z̺/ > /ʃ ʒ/, and then have /ʒ dz/ > /z/, so that the most common sibilants in the language are /ʃ/ and /z/?

s z > ʃ ʒ, no problem.
dz > z, no problem

I am, however, a little skeptical of ʒ > z but not ʃ > s.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:07 pm 
Smeric
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Is there a separate/ s/ that survives, or is this language entirely without plain /s/? I think Hungarian has/ S z/ as the most common but also has /Z s/ in comparable quantities.

/Z/>/z/ moving alone would be most likely if it shifted to a more open articulation than the voiceless . C.f. d turning dental in some langs but leaving t behind.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:40 pm 
Smeric
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Hungarian has plenty of /s/ but not so much /ʒ/. EDIT: Or at least that's my impression. I'm pretty sure about the /s/ part but a bit more uncertain about /ʒ/.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:52 pm 
Lebom
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Soap wrote:
Is there a separate/ s/ that survives, or is this language entirely without plain /s/? I think Hungarian has/ S z/ as the most common but also has /Z s/ in comparable quantities.

/Z/>/z/ moving alone would be most likely if it shifted to a more open articulation than the voiceless . C.f. d turning dental in some langs but leaving t behind.


The proto-language had /t tˤ d dˤ s sˤ z zˤ/ which became /t ts d dz ʃ s ʒ z/ later on. So yeah, there's a plain /s/, it's just rarer than the /ʃ/ and considered marked by the native speakers. And funnily enough, the /z/ really is very strongly dental in the standard dialect.


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:51 pm 
Lebom
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Actually, speaking of coronals, what are the people's favourite reasonably-bland coronal consonant systems? I've been stumped as to what I want my conlang's to be in the end and so I think I'd just give somebody here the sincerest form of flattery.

In terms of general phonology, there's a strong voicing distinction in both plosives and fricatives and historical presence of pharyngealised coronals that I'm trying to eliminate through diachronic changes. In terms of particular phonology, as mentoned above, there're /t tˤ d dˤ s sˤ z zˤ ʃ ʃˤ ʒ ʒˤ ɾ ɾˤ l lˤ/ historically, which become /t ts d dz ʃ s ʒ z ʃ ʃ ʃ ʃ ɾ ʒ l l/ later on in the current version, respectively, though I don't quite like how the result sounds.


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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:39 am 
Lebom
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Welp, my last question seems to have been to vague, so how about this one:

I want to make Bantu, specifically Swahili, influence to cause development of this post-nasal fortition & voicing:

N(f v p) → mb
Nt → nd
N(s z ts) → ndz
N(ʃ ʒ j) → ɲdʒ, with [dʒ] not being otherwise found anywhere else
N(k g x ɣ) → ŋg
Nw → ŋgw
N(l ɾ) → ndr, which is the only three-consonant cluster allowed in the language

Also due to Bantu influence, the nasal clusters above will simplify to just nasals when preceded by another nasal cluster in the next syllable, e.g.

/imbindi/ → [imbini]
/anrinʃu/ → [andriɲdʒu] → [andriɲu]
/kanɣanwu/ → [kaŋgaŋgwu] → [kaŋgaŋu]

And the resulting /ɲ/ and /ŋ/ are not phonemic, but merely allophones of /m/ or /n/ in the complex environment described above.

Does that look good?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:17 am 
Sanci
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How do these changes look?

ts tɬ tɕ→ s ɬ ɕ (but ts' tɬ' tɕ' preserved)
(later)
p’ k’ q’ → pf’ kx’ qχ’ → f’ x’ χ’
f' → f

Assuming an initial inventory without ejective fricatives?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:38 pm 
Avisaru
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I like the first line, and I'm hard-pressed to come up with a reason to reject the rest.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:31 am 
Sanci
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Is there any chance of unconditioned s > ts, if there are other sources of s to fill in the gap?


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