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 Post subject: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:56 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:04 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:07 pm 
Smeric
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cool idea, yours... but I disagree with the choice of the velar nasal: most langs don't have it, so shouldn't it not be in your repertoire?

Also, this could do with a survey of the world's more common sounds. WALS isn't comprehensive.

Still, if this was a youtube channel, I would hit the subscribe button.

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:11 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:28 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:30 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:33 pm 
Smeric
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I think contrasting gemination might be more common than any funky nasals [velar, nasal] or a glottal stop

or contrasting series of palatalized or something

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:11 pm 
Sanci
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/p t tʃ k/
/b d dʒ g/
/f s ʃ x h/
/m n ɲ/
/l ʎ r/
/w j/

Makes more sense IMHO, because you'd be able to describe a palatal series contrasting with a «plain» series: /tʃ ʤ ʃ ɲ ʎ/ vs. /t d s n l/. It seems pretty average to me.

EDIT: would /c/ and /ɟ/ instead of /ʧ/ and /ʤ/ be far too alien? Are they too unstable/uncommon for an avrelang?


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 Post subject: Re: Morphology
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:01 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:24 pm 
Avisaru
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I have some thoughts on the consonants.
First of all, I have a sense that most languages, on average, are a little weird. So it is average to be odd. I also have an idea that palatal consonants in general are not that common. Palatalised, yes, maybe, but not fully palatal. And glottal stops are extremely common worldwide, although they are not phonemic in most languages. But most languages don't have /x/. /x/ is not less weird than /ŋ/ and /ʔ/. However, Torco's comment about contrasting geminates is very apt. And I think I'm in the end going to drop both /ŋ/ and /ʔ/ for /n:/ and /l:/. It makes sense.
However, I'm at a loss as to what to do with syllable structure. What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:38 pm 
Lebom
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(C)(V)

doooo iiiiiiiiit

:D


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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:43 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:51 pm 
Avisaru
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And just to finish of the morphological typology:

Features 73-76
Moods. Is there an optative? No. Is there situational possibility marking? Yes, but not morphological. Verbal constructions are used.
Is there epistemic possibility marking? Well, yes, but not morphological and it does not use verbal constructions. Fun! We have options. Well, what are they? Clitics or adverbs. Adverbs is way boring, and since we have the option, here, we are going with epistemic possibility clitics. It may not be the most average way to do it, but hey—it will make the language look average on WALS and CALS, and that is largely the goal here. And finally, there is no overlap between situational and epistemic possibility and necessity marking. That is consistent with what we have so far. And it gives us the possibility to mark necessity morphologically. Filling those empty slots on 'em verbs, one by one.

Features 77-78
Evidentiality. Well, bummer. There are no grammatical evidential in avrelang.

Features 79-80
These conclude our morphology section. These articles answer the question we have all been waiting for. Does my avrelang utilise suppletion in verbs? Well: Not according to tense/aspect. And what do you know? Not according to number either.

That concludes morphology typology. Now I just have to fill in the gaps. But first I must finish that pesky phonology. I've been thinking about that syllable structure, and here's what I think:
CVC is really boring and since we don't have to go with the most boring feature, that's not the goal here. We are aiming for interesting, yet average. That leaves CCV and CCVC. Let's have a vote, shall we? While there are some initial clusters, does avrelang have coda consonants or does it not? Trailsend, can I count you as not in favour of codas?

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:55 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:00 pm 
Avisaru
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Maybe you're right. Grr… I don't know what to do. To be honest, I have a little bit of a gripe with palatal laterals. Besides, I don't think the lateral really is forming any kind of symmetry with other things, there. There's no back-lateral, for example. So adding a palatal one would not add symmetry. So how about a palatal nasal and something else? Maybe even a full series of nasals, including a velar one? Or a palatal nasal and a glottal stop? Or a palatal nasal and a flap, introducing a third liquid?

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:41 pm 
Lebom
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I had this Idea before, but never followed up on it. I might start it up again, but it looks like you're much more committed to it


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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:45 pm 
Lebom
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I have no idea which is more average but aesthetically I like CCVC.

This looks like fun and I shall pay attention.


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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:56 pm 
Sanci
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edit:


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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:10 pm 
Avisaru
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Well, sorry to naysayers but those statistics settle the issue. /ʔ/ and /ŋ/ it is. They are both on the top ten list of the most common consonants in the world. The original inventory stands. Good. That settles it.
Also, I've been reading up on syllable constraints all night and I have come up with two schemes that seem to be really normal for them.

In case CCV is what's decided, it will go like this:

V
CV
KV
where K equals:
p,t,k,b,d,g,f,r,x+r,l,w,j excluding same POA clusters pw, bw, tl, dl and kj, gj, xj and also sj (but including tr and dr). We can assume the affricates and ʃ developed from kj, gj and sj/xj. According to that list and various other sources, they are less common than others. I think no same-POA when there are no nasals involved is a good rule. It seems common, but not with rhotics, for some reason.

I'm considering adding gb and kp to the mix, they are among the most common clusters in the world (especially African languages). Also, aspirated stops, or what could be analysed as unvoiced stop + /h/.

In case of CCVC, it will go the same except adding:
CVF
KVF
where F equals a liquid, glide or nasal:
r,l,j,w,m,n,ŋ

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:29 pm 
Avisaru
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I would submit that you use a nominative/oblique case system for nouns instead of just adding a possessive. It's quite common: many older Romance languages and loads of Indo-Aryan ones do that, as does Nama. So too do many Northwestern Caucasian languages, and a quick search on Google Books reveals a very similar system (semantically identical, but morphologically analytical) in a very obscure Austronesian language of Taiwan by the name of Seediq.


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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:10 pm 
Avisaru
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Well, WALS feature 49 has 100 languages without case marking, the runner-up is six to seven with 37, two cases comes fourth and fifth along with 8-9, after 10, with 23 members. Doing that would really screw up the statistics for this one feature. However, in total, 161 languages have some kind of case marking against the 100 without. Chapter 23 also states that it is more common to mark the verb for constituents than overtly marking the actual constituents. Chapter 50 agrees, more without case marking than some kind of case marking. But then, Chapter 51 shows many more languages having case-suffixes than no case marking. Whom to believe? Chapter 51 is looking a little outnumbered here.

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:15 pm 
Avisaru
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Actually, I just read the theoretical issues in 49 and it says that 51 is more loose in its definition of case and includes clitics and adpositions as case markers, while 49 only includes suffixes. That explains the inconsistency. I'm staying caseless (according to chapter 49's definition of case). But thank you for your input.

I've been reading the UPSID and related materials and I can happily tell you that the number of phonemes in languages is on average 29 and my avrelang has 26 which is very close to the median. I might add 3 diphthongs or so and work out some changes to the phonotactics I mentioned before.

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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:20 pm 
Avisaru
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 Post subject: Re: My Avrelang
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:12 am 
Lebom
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This is my understanding of the imperative situation. A minimal system means method/process of marking 2S is not the same as any of the other persons. A maximal system covers all 2nd, all 3rd, and at least 1P Inclusive. So if I have it right then a system could use the same method for 2S, 2P, 1P Inclusive, and not cover 3rd and be neither minimal (2P and 1P both use the same process as 2S) nor maximal (no 3rd). So for the lang yoou could mark the imperative on the verb for 2S, 2P, and 1P and then either ignore 3rd person.

I think the inventory is fine as it is. As for syllable structure I am a fan of CCVC.


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