Arka: an a priori conlang with 14,000 words from Japan

[cromulant]

well, it's not awesome than an entire online community is laughing at someone... or is it?

It's fine. He deserves it, for his arrogance and his willful ignorance.

[Thry]

well, it's not awesome than an entire online community is laughing at someone... or is it?

It's fine. He deserves it, for his arrogance and his willful ignorance.

xD Torco's conscience speaketh.

[Torco]

what? i do have one of those, even if it has a nifty off-switch

[Thry]

what? i do have one of those, even if it has a nifty off-switch

sure, I was just pointing out that cromulant was acting as your conscience here.

'cause he has the power.

[Torco]

what? i do have one of those, even if it has a nifty off-switch

sure, I was just pointing out that cromulant was acting as your conscience here.

'cause he has the power.

is it really good to use humour as a form of social contro, ie humilliate those who don't conform to what we think is non-retarded behaviour ?

[AK-92]

what? i do have one of those, even if it has a nifty off-switch

sure, I was just pointing out that cromulant was acting as your conscience here.

'cause he has the power.

is it really good to use humour as a form of social contro, ie humilliate those who don't conform to what we think is non-retarded behaviour ?

It's for their own good

[Torco]

yeah, that's what anti-gay bigots, or inquisitors, say.

though ridicule might be effective, its by no means transparently justified.
let's derail this thread into the ethics of ridicule, using AOA as a case of study.
[irony warning]

[AK-92]

yeah, that's what anti-gay bigots, or inquisitors, say.

though ridicule might be effective, its by no means transparently justified.
let's derail this thread into the ethics of ridicule, using AOA as a case of study.
[irony warning]

hmm, I see your point.

[Torco]

yeah, that's what anti-gay bigots, or inquisitors, say.

though ridicule might be effective, its by no means transparently justified.
let's derail this thread into the ethics of ridicule, using AOA as a case of study.
[irony warning]

hmm, I see your point.

yeah, it's gratouitous meanness for the sake of feeling better about oneself, plus the added bonus of thinking oh, I'm making them learn something.

[Thry]

yeah, it's gratouitous meanness for the sake of feeling better about oneself, plus the added bonus of thinking oh, I'm making them learn something.

I think it's the opposite. You normally criticise, but in these situations it's almost impossible not to add humor. Humor is in the situation already. His words are humor. We just discover it and share our common perception and rejoice in that. As if we arrived somewhere and argued the smell. We didn't cause the smell; much less through talking. And we talk everywhere.

[cromulant]

How is the meanness "gratuitous?"

[Torco]

yeah, it's gratouitous meanness for the sake of feeling better about oneself, plus the added bonus of thinking oh, I'm making them learn something.

I think it's the opposite. You normally criticise, but in these situations it's almost impossible not to add humor. Humor is in the situation already. His words are humor. We just discover it and share our common perception and rejoice in that. As if we arrived somewhere and argued the smell. We didn't cause the smell; much less through talking. And we talk everywhere.

well, yes, but we're still mocking him intentionally and openly.
we because, hell, who am I kidding, he's hilarious...
HA HA


I'm just wondering if I should feel bad about myself. xD

[Thry]

well, yes, but we're still mocking him intentionally and openly.
we because, hell, who am I kidding, he's hilarious...
HA HA


I'm just wondering if I should feel bad about myself. xD

no you shouldn't, so don't. as long as we have the power, we're justified.

[cromulant]

I don't see why we shouldn't, Torco. I'm not hearing a cogent reason from you why a guy who comes in and insults people should not expect to be repaid in kind--especially after he is first told politely to dial down the arrogance a bit, and responds by turning it up. I'm just not feeling the moral outrage you are, I guess.

However, I have no illusions that he's learned anything from this.

[Salmoneus]

yeah, it's gratouitous meanness for the sake of feeling better about oneself, plus the added bonus of thinking oh, I'm making them learn something.

I think it's the opposite. You normally criticise, but in these situations it's almost impossible not to add humor. Humor is in the situation already. His words are humor. We just discover it and share our common perception and rejoice in that. As if we arrived somewhere and argued the smell. We didn't cause the smell; much less through talking. And we talk everywhere.

well, yes, but we're still mocking him intentionally and openly.
we because, hell, who am I kidding, he's hilarious...
HA HA


I'm just wondering if I should feel bad about myself. xD

Yes, you should. You're using humour as a means of social control, being part of a pack humiliating and degrading an outsider for failing to conform to your preconceptions, despite the fact that he's hurt nobody, will hurt nobody, and hasn't even been directly rude to you personally or to anybody else personally.

This is understandable as a form of retaliation when you feel yourself attacked, but that doesn't make it particularly laudable.

It probably is defensible, in moderation, as a form of social self-defense, against those who imperil the vital norms and conventions of the group. This defense is only tangential here, however, because AOA has always stuck to their own threads, isn't infesting the board, and there's no sign that anyone is all that likely to imitate him. So yes, perhaps a degree of hostile ridicule is understandable here, but only within quite limited bounds.

The other defense that I think applies is that it's not you, it's the argument. That is: when you're arguing with somebody about something, sometimes the mere fact of the argument inevitably ridicules the opponant, if the opponant is arrantly and unobfuscatably wrong, wrong, and wrongheaded. Sometimes it's just not possible to keep the tone of ridicule out of your voice, when you're discussing something ridiculous. Should you be having the argument? Well, in this case he did clearly invite it.

On the other hand, people should perhaps have thought again about whether they were having a real argument when a) he showed no sign of reading comprehension, and b) everybody else around them was piling on. It's never an edifying sight when people are competing against each other to land the killing blow - it looks rather as though they're not interested in educating the victim, but simply in outdoing their peers. Besides which, in the cases where it gets that far, it's a good sign that the victim is invulnerable to cogent criticism in the first place.

More importantly: while a spot of sport was unedifying-yet-hard-to-condemn in the actual argument that he started, you're now continuing to ridicule him in an entirely different thread (and on entirely different forums), and he isn't answering back. It's now YOU lot who are infecting the board with petty arguments about Arka; and you're also punching a man who isn't hitting back, who isn't even putting his arms up to defend himself. That's crass.

So yes, you should feel bad about that.

[cromulant: "but mummy, he started it!" isn't a good excuse as a toddler, isn't a good excuse in kindergarten or in school, and it's still not a good excuse when you're an adult. And what HE should have EXPECTED is a different matter altogether from what YOU ought to DO.]

[Left]

XD

[Torco]

I don't see why we shouldn't, Torco. I'm not hearing a cogent reason from you why a guy who comes in and insults people should not expect to be repaid in kind--especially after he is first told politely to dial down the arrogance a bit, and responds by turning it up. I'm just not feeling the moral outrage you are, I guess.

However, I have no illusions that he's learned anything from this.

what moral outrage? I just feel moral curiosity. has he really insulted people directly, tho ?

WORDS
So yes, you should feel bad about that.

yeah, I knew I felt a bit of remorse for a reason. lol you're arrogant is just fine, but the whole 'laughing stock of the entire western world of conlanging' is a bit... hum... how you say in english... bullyish?

using humour as a form of social control isn't inherently bad: it would be bad if the social more being defended through humour wasbad, would be good if the social more being defended through humour was good. in this case, the social norm -this isn't a venue for what is basically advertising- is good, so the social control is, in principle, good. however, if the victim of a joke doesn't fight back it's bullying, you're right.

fuck, I was hoping for a longer discussion on mockery ethics =(

[clawgrip]

The Netsilik Inuit (and I guess other Inuit groups...I only know about the Netsilik!) used ridicule as a form of social control to discourage aberrant behaviour in society that relied heavily on cooperation. They even had formal song duels where they write songs making fun of their opponents, teach the song to their wives, and then have a song-off while they play drums to accompany their insult songs.

[Vuvuzela]

The Netsilik Inuit (and I guess other Inuit groups...I only know about the Netsilik!) used ridicule as a form of social control to discourage aberrant behaviour in society that relied heavily on cooperation. They even had formal song duels where they write songs making fun of their opponents, teach the song to their wives, and then have a song-off while they play drums to accompany their insult songs.

Formal song duels? You mean like rap battles?

[clawgrip]

Basically, except you get your wife to sing it. And your opponent is in the same room (i.e. a community igloo).

[Torco]

The Netsilik Inuit (and I guess other Inuit groups...I only know about the Netsilik!) used ridicule as a form of social control to discourage aberrant behaviour in society that relied heavily on cooperation. They even had formal song duels where they write songs making fun of their opponents, teach the song to their wives, and then have a song-off while they play drums to accompany their insult songs.

Formal song duels? You mean like rap battles?

EPIC RAP BATTLES OF HISTORYYYYYYY

also, this was said elsewhere

Since Arka is the topic of discussion, I wanted to add this (which I found utterly hilarious):

We talk big, but that's because we have power.

That is why we must enlighten you.

Even if you don't want it, yet you need it

It is the best way.

Guys I think Arka might be a cult.

And this, I think, makes the cause of loling at aoa rather more worthy; whatever norm the zeeb have that dictates that these phrases are bad, must be protected, methinks.

[Miekko]

And your opponent is in the same room (i.e. a community igloo).

How does this differ from proper rap battles?

[clawgrip]

The igloo, I guess.

[Thry]

[...]More importantly: while a spot of sport was unedifying-yet-hard-to-condemn in the actual argument that he started, you're now continuing to ridicule him in an entirely different thread (and on entirely different forums), and he isn't answering back. It's now YOU lot who are infecting the board with petty arguments about Arka; and you're also punching a man who isn't hitting back, who isn't even putting his arms up to defend himself. That's crass.

So yes, you should feel bad about that.

And justice speaketh: you just had to say that before he himself answered in Japanese speaking shit about Americans (lol, I'm free, I'm European!!), and doing all of those things you mentioned - attacking us without intending us to defend (he spoke in a language most of us don't), ridiculing our conlangs, natlangs... with that willfully ignorant linguoethnocentrism of his... and how did you expect a direct personal insult anyway? That's not how intellectual offense works at all.

[Kereb]

turns out the stuff he was saying about his language being superior, and about all other conlangers not having a clue how to create things, and about how we really should all take his word for it that he knows what we all ought to be doing ... this was exactly what he meant, and not an artifact of language difficulties