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 Post subject: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:47 pm 
Sanci
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Does anyone, or has anyone created a table of correlatives in their language? I am curious because i am up to that stage in my langauge and was wondering what other people had done and to what extent one could go in relation to creating correlatives and how creative one could be? Would anyone who has created some in their conlang be willing to show them?

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:36 am 
Sumerul
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Correlatives are kind of an Esperanto-specific concept for talking about nonpolar questions, and needn't be any sort of coherent system that you can easily express in a table, although it happens that Esperanto does work that way. You can see by looking at the English translations of the Esperanto correlatives, in English there isn't one coherent way of talking about all of those meaning distinctions, although you certainly can talk about them in some way or another, just like in any other langauge.

My conlang Saimiar has a single prefix na-, which can be applied freely to nouns and creates a sentences expressing the question "which/what noun [did something/had something done to it/etc.]":

Na-da-źan docuavo cedibai?
QUERY-ERG-person kill-PST mother-1sgPOS
"Who killed my mother" (lit. what-person)

Na-śot-ak xiac nakotai?
QUER-place-LOC exist book-2sgPOS
"Where is your book?" (lit. at what-place)

Na-bumron xêmpetliŋo?
QUER-minister traitor-COP
"Who among us is a traitor? [spoken by a minister to the council of ministers]"

Na-proiku-s daguam vrôśko benun?
QUER-proiku-PREP ERG-water fill water-container
"How many proikus [= half a gallon or so] of water do you need to fill this cistern?

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:50 am 
Šriftom
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I used to, then I realised it was kind of boring.

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:57 am 
Smeric
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con quesa wrote:
Correlatives are kind of an Esperanto-specific concept for talking about nonpolar questions, and needn't be any sort of coherent system that you can easily express in a table, although it happens that Esperanto does work that way. You can see by looking at the English translations of the Esperanto correlatives, in English there isn't one coherent way of talking about all of those meaning distinctions, although you certainly can talk about them in some way or another, just like in any other langauge.

Nancy Blackett wrote:
I used to, then I realised it was kind of boring.

Having a table of correlatives doesn't mean making them all cookie-cutter regular and tidy. It can just be a useful way to organize these terms, and even to decide where the irregular forms and gaps should be.

---

Victot li Rhák has sóqen, which functions similarly to Saimiar na-, but is a full word. It's normally used with an appopriate noun, but can stand alone if context allows.

Sóqenrhe faset lóbam chevokr xavéy tash?
"What person (=Who) killed my mother/father?"

Sóqenrhe lóbam chevokr xavéy tash?
- use of the 3rd person animate verbal ending -r indicates the subject is a person, so faset can be left out.

This, I think, will be especially common with the relative pronouns:

Lódenam chevokso faset, sóqen _ lódenam chevokr xavéy tash.
"I killed the man/person who killed my mother/father."


VLR correlatives are mostly regular, but there are a few oddities. Some forms cliticize and may undergo changes, e.g. it + faset > it-fasti (or it-fas, depending on dialect); bí + émi > bídémi. And the interrogative form sóqenrhe is often reduced in colloquial speech, e.g. sóqenrhe faset ["so:tKenR\e "faset] > ["so:tKe:R\ "faset]; sóqenrhe émi > ["so:tKen"R\e:mi] or ["so:tKn="R\e:mi]; sóqenrhe ri(d) > ["so:tKe:r "ri].

There are also two words, ash and kanh, which mean "here/there" and "now/then", respectively. Proximity is not distinguished, so they refer to a place/time mentioned earlier, or understood from context. If one needs to disambiguate, the phrases it-shóf / vé-shóf "this / that place" and it-serh / vé-serh "this / that time" are used.

There are also two sets of negative forms, one with fen, which cliticizes, and the other with resok (from re-sók(a) "not one"), which does not cliticize. The latter is emphatic in meaning, and tends not to require double negation.

Relóm rhasso fenfasti
"I don't see anyone" (lit. "I don't see no one")

Lóm rhasso resok faset
"I don't see a (single) person, I see not one person"

Fenfasti relódenam thobr xav
"No one helped me" (lit. "No one didn't help me")

Resok faset lódenam thobr xav
"Not one person helped me"

EDIT:

Also, if you look closely, English has the remains of a more regular system:
Code:
who       he
what      it (< OE "hit")   that
where     here              there
when                        then
whither   hither            thither
whence    hence             thence

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:27 pm 
Smeric
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I'll sometimes try to make them if there's irregularity, but if certain correlatives also decline by case or number or... well, anything... it's more inconvenient. Excel and HTML haven't exactly come up with convenient three-dimensional tables yet. (Or would those be boxes?)

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:20 pm 
Visanom
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this should be mandatory reading for all conlangers:
http://math.berkeley.edu/~apollo/my-con ... ndpro.html

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:19 pm 
Sumerul
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http://www.frathwiki.com/Kala_Nouns#Cor ... e_Pronouns

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:03 am 
Sumerul
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Boşkoventi wrote:
English has the remains of a more regular system
We should totally go back to saying "hit". Also we should use "hen" for "now". Yay zealous regularisation!

My conlang has a table which includes these things and more. On one axis there are pronouns and other nounlike things, including articles. On the other axis are cases. So to say "where" you use the interrogative pronoun with the locative case. There are some 30 or so pronouns and 21 cases, but there are plenty of holes in the table.

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:38 pm 
Sumerul
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I realize this is necro, but I have recently begun re-pondering correlatives and I was curious to see how others deal with them.

Do you have a chart? Do you regularize them? How does your conlang deal with the semantic roles if you don't have a regularized system?

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:36 pm 
Sumerul
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Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp
I've got some correlatives, but haven't filled them all in, yet...

In haven't got plans to make a full list of correlatives. Maybe I could just to practice creating words and then select a few for deleting.

Some, all and none are simplfied by suffixes which I can add on to any pronoun (except maybe personal pronouns).

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 Post subject: Re: Conlang Correlatives
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:00 pm 
Visanom
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*OoOoOoO COME BACK FROM THE DEAD, I INVOKE YOU LORD OF CORRELATIVES*

So I think this beats creating a new thread. To the point: I just wanted to share that in my romlang Irlandic a lot of correlatives have been regularized (well more or less, there are some quirks), coexisting with new forms and irregular forms, sometimes with different usages.

Code:
             Wh-/Rel.   Some       Any/...ever      No 
         
Adj.         Qual?      Al         Qual(qual)       Nein
Thing        Que?/Cos?  Alc(os)    Qualque/Qualcos  Nul, Nulcos, Ren
Person (s.)  Qui?       Algui      Qualqui          Ningui
Person (o.)  Quen?      Alguen     Qualquen         Ninguen
Place        Ond?       Alcond     Qualcond         Nincond
Way          Com?       Alcom      Qualcom          Nincom
Time         Quand?     Alquand    Qualquand        Ninquand
Amount       Quant?    (Alquant)  (Qualquant)       Ninquant

Many of these are well alive and have no direct cognates in other romance languages (i.e. ninquand for "never", qualcond for "wherever" or qualqui for "anybody"). Others do (i.e. alguen and ninguen c.f. Portuguese alguém and ninguém "somebody" and "nobody"). There are minor remnants from Latin's own correlative system (tan, tant vs. lit. quan, quant "so, so many/much, how, how many/much; ond "where" and end "hence").

There may be something going on with adverbs and demonstratives (also from Latin itself), but that's not fleshed out enough yet, since most will be part of literary or old language (the modern demonstrative system has been simplified a lot).

As always, I may be forgetting something.


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