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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:47 pm 
Smeric
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A more telling example would be a language like Iatmul. It contrasts voiceless stops with voiced prenasalised stops and for fricatives has /v s/ (/v/ contrasting with /w/). The main issue is that there's a type of voicing contrast for stops but it's not simple voicing that's the contrastive feature. Additionally there's the fact that although there are both intrinsically voiced and unvoiced fricatives, voicing isn't contrastive for them.

Isolated cases of the latter issue with stop series are demonstrated with languages like Arapaho and Arabana where it's either customary or seems to be in principle possible to analyse one single member of their stop series as underlyingly voiced with the others being underlyingly unvoiced (in case of Arabana you might be able to substitute /ɖ/ for /ʈ/).

This gets to splitting hairs especially since both Arapaho and Arabana certainly fail the point with fricatives (only unvoiced fricatives or no fricatives at all), but for good statistics you'll need rigorously defined points.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:51 pm 
Avisaru
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Nortaneous wrote:
Itelmen doesn't count since it doesn't have a voice contrast in fricatives, even though it has a voice contrast in fricatives.
What?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:05 pm 
Smeric
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I interpret the question to mean "a pure* voicing contrast at at least one plosive POA, and at at least one fricative POA**, and on no other non-affricate MOA" (the though technically, a strict reading of the question rules out languages such as English, which have a voicing contrast on affricates.

*Not admixed with other features like prenasalization.

**The criteria WALS uses.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:06 pm 
Osän
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yeah I wouldn't count the Pacific p vs. mb thing as voicing for the purposes of this, since prenasalization isn't a thing in Europe

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:55 am 
Sanno
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gach wrote:
A more telling example would be a language like Iatmul. It contrasts voiceless stops with voiced prenasalised stops and for fricatives has /v s/ (/v/ contrasting with /w/). The main issue is that there's a type of voicing contrast for stops but it's not simple voicing that's the contrastive feature. Additionally there's the fact that although there are both intrinsically voiced and unvoiced fricatives, voicing isn't contrastive for them.

Isolated cases of the latter issue with stop series are demonstrated with languages like Arapaho and Arabana where it's either customary or seems to be in principle possible to analyse one single member of their stop series as underlyingly voiced with the others being underlyingly unvoiced (in case of Arabana you might be able to substitute /ɖ/ for /ʈ/).

This gets to splitting hairs especially since both Arapaho and Arabana certainly fail the point with fricatives (only unvoiced fricatives or no fricatives at all), but for good statistics you'll need rigorously defined points.


I'd just like to point out again, re 'good statistics', that this test was just something I threw together off the top of my head. I think it's broadly fair in general, but it was never really intended to be statistically secure. It was just meant to be better than the previous suggestions people had made...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:26 am 
Smeric
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Sure, but it still doesn't mean that you couldn't argue for some extra rigour in the system, if for nothing else then just for the fun of doing some development. Mostly I was concerned about loose wording of some of the points which can cause head scratching with certain languages when people are filling the test for them.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:02 am 
Sumerul
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It could probably be worded better as 'Voicing distinction in stops and fricatives, and no other MoA'.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:35 pm 
Sumerul
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Sanap Þoi

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar :T
2. Phonemic voicing :F
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives :F
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives :F
5. At least two MOAs with identical POA arrays :F
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined :T
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs] :T
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops :T
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops :T
10. More non-stops than stops :T
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes :F
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics :T
13. No lateral obstruents :T
14. One phonemic rhotic :T
15. 5-7 POAs :T
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs :F
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation :T
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing :T
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind :T
20. 7 or more vowel qualities :H
21. Three or more diphthongs :T
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels :T
23. One front rounded vowel :F
24. Two or more front rounded vowels :F
25. No vowel harmony :T
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. :T
27. More than three degrees of vowel height :F
28. Phonemic stress :F
29. No phonemic tone :T
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed :F
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic) :T
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal) :T
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative) :T
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) :T
35. CVCC syllables allowed :F
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF :F
37. CLV syllables allowed :F
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. :F
39. CCCV syllables allowed :F
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed :F
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed :F
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed :F
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives :F
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic :F
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes :F
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative :F
47. No more than four POAs for stops :T
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ :T
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries :T
50. No more than two series of fricatives :T
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony :F
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all :T
53. Words can end in any consonant :F
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables :F
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA :T

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal :T
S2. No tone system with more than two tones :T
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides :F
S4. At least 10 vowels in total :T
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants :T
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless :T
S7. Phonemic voice distinction :F
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops :T
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants :H

60% SAE


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:11 pm 
Osän
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1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/

6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]

10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]

13. No lateral obstruents

14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]

15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]

16. 4 stop/affricate POAs

17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]

18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction

19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]

20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]

21. Three or more diphthongs

22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
(there's sort of a high back unrounded vowel, but it's diphthongized)
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony

26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]

27. More than three degrees of vowel height

28. Phonemic stress

29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]

30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed

31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)

34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)

35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]

37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed

40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)

41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed

42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed

43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)

44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]

45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]

47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]

48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)

49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries

50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic

51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony

52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]

54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables

55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA
(if you don't count velar and labiovelar separately)

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal

S2. No tone system with more than two tones

S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]

S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)

S5. No non-pulmonic consonants

S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless

S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]

S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]

S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]


50.5

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:49 pm 
Sumerul
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Ket: /b d t k q s h m n ŋ ɮ j/ /i e a o u ɯ ʌ/ + 6 tones

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)

35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

53% Europe

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:51 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:12 am
Posts: 852
Mhakh Thandim

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

53.5%


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:28 pm 
Sanci
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I'm in the middle of doing this, but I have a question before I finish. When the questions ask about fricatives, are they talking about phonemic or allophonic fricatives?

Edit: Similarly, are these questions asking about phonemic or total allophonic vowel qualities?

Quote:
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels


Last edited by Dezinaa on Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:29 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:21 pm
Posts: 250
Phonemic.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:44 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:21 pm
Posts: 250
The crap I just posted in the romanization thread:

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Voicing distinction in stops and fricatives, and no other MoA
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) (only word-finally)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]


67.5%. I expected more.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 5:49 pm 
Sanci
Sanci
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:45 pm
Posts: 47
Location: tunta, àn paànmúnu’ai
’iiŋìm: /m n ŋ p t k ʔ a i u ˥ ˧ ˩/

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

29%. I hope I did it right, because that seems pretty low.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:49 pm 
Sumerul
Sumerul

Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:07 pm
Posts: 3307
Location: Miracle, Inc. Headquarters
Ercunic: (Proto-Celtic daughter language)

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Voicing distinction in stops and fricatives, and no other MoA
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) (only word-finally)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

70.5% SAE

_________________
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
Taisc mach Daró


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:44 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:34 am
Posts: 457
Location: Virginia
Sparrownese
1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar] (no, there is a pharyngeal, epiglottal, and glottal stop)
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Voicing distinction in stops and fricatives, and no other MoA
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives (no, has voiceless and voiced velar, and voiceless pharyngeal, epiglottal, and glottal stops)
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined (actually, only velar, alveolar, palatal and bilabial, and labiodental)
[color=#00BF00]7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs] (pharyngealization on all t, d, glottal stop, s, z, voiced and voiceless dental fricatives)[/color]
[8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40] (no, 63)
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents (voiced and voiceless palatal, velar and alveolar lateral fricatives)
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one] (no, retroflex subapical as well)
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs] (no, bilabial, labiodental, alveolar, dental, postalveolar, palatoalveolar, retroflex subapical, velar, pharyngeal, epiglottal, and glottal)
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs (no, affricates are bilabial, labiodental, alveolar, palatoalveolar, dental, velar, pharyngeal, epiglottal, and glottal and stops are bilabial, alveolar, velar, pharyngeal and epiglottal)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction (no, pharyngealized consonants, and aspiration on k)
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind (ingressive lateral alveolar voiceless fricative with glottal closure, like Damin)[half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more] (only nasalized, long, creaky voiced, and extra short)
21. Three or more diphthongs (no, only ai(breve over i) and au(breve over u) for offglided)
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels] (there are 4 unrounded)
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony (no, my only vowel harmony language is a protolang for plant aliens)
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities] (nasalized, creaky voiced)
27. More than three degrees of vowel height (yes, high, mid, close-mid, low)
28. Phonemic stress (yes, it is hard to type because you need an acute accent over the vowel every time, and there can be up to 5 diacritics on one vowel)
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages] (not full tone, but does stressed syllables having tone count)
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal) (velar nasal can be at end of words)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative) (s and f)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) (only word-finally) (any of the voiceless stops, when at end of word, they have no audible release)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
[/color[color=#BF0000]]36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]

37. CLV syllables allowed
[color=#00BF00]
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA][/color]
39. CCCV syllables allowed (yes, even at beginning of words)
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates) (all can occur, even at beginning of words)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed (all can occur, even at beginning of words, the native abugida has conjunct consonants)
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed (all are allowed, even at beginning of words)
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both] (syllabic nasals, fricatives, laterals, and rhotics)
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes (all of them are considered phonemes)
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates] (there are bilabial, alveolar, velar, glottal, pharyngeal and epiglottal stops)
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal) (initial palatal nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries (there is a phonemic geminate velar lateral fricatives voiced and voiceless)
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony (no, central, back and front vowels and no vowel harmony)
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all (velar nasal)
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones (stressed syllables can have up to 4 tones, high, mid, low, rising-falling)
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation) (there are 16 short and 16 long vowels, a, e, E, i, o, O, u, M, 7, V, 2, 9, y, 6, &\)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants (there are stops and nasals and fricatives and affricates and approximants)
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless (voiced, voiceless, some consonants can be pharyngealized, k can be aspirated)
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]
so 17%. WHAT I WANTED TO GET!!!

_________________
Hello there. Chirp chirp chirp.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:46 pm 
Smeric
Smeric
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:49 am
Posts: 1260
Location: La Ciudad de Nueva York
Proto-Tankic

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Voicing distinction in stops and fricatives, and no other MoA
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) (only word-finally)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

32%, apparently. Funnily enough the language is, and has always been through its various revisions based largely off Uralic.

_________________
The Artist Formerly Known as Caleone

My Conlangs (WIP):

Pasic - Proto-Northeastern Bay - Asséta - Àpzó


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:17 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 3:33 am
Posts: 153
I am not sure if this is the right thread for this, but here is an audio recording of my conlang. Please tell me whether it sounds European or not :D

http://vocaroo.com/i/s1vmgYRHUVAz


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:04 pm 
Osän
Osän
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:52 am
Posts: 11585
Location: the Imperial Corridor
Otkh

b t d k g q *2
f th s h *2
m n r l *2
y
a E O e i 1 u *2

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined

7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops

9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]

15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]

21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony

26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed

36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed

43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]

47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony

52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA (if you don't count velar and labiovelar separately)

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones

S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless

S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

50.5

...again?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:47 pm 
Lebom
Lebom

Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 9:18 pm
Posts: 107
1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA (if you don't count velar and labiovelar separately)

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Total: 66%
Not as high as I expected.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:59 am 
Smeric
Smeric

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:47 pm
Posts: 1741
Location: Leiden, the Netherlands
Proto-southern:
p-t-k (with fricative and stop allophones)
N (a nasal not specified for POA)
r or l (liquid not specified for manner of articulation)
w-j
i-a-u

This minimalist system has about as much phonemes as, say, Rotokas or Pirahã, though it’s not a copy of either.

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar] T
2. Phonemic voicing F
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives F
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives F
5. /v/ but no /w/ F
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined F? (one contrastive POA for nasals, three for stops)
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs) ? what? F I think?
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops F
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number] F
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) F
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40] F
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one] F
13. No lateral obstruents T
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one] T
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs] F
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs F
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation] T
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction F? there are no phonation distinctions
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series] T
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more] F
21. Three or more diphthongs T
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels] T
23. One front rounded vowel F
24. Two or more front rounded vowels F
25. No vowel harmony T
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities] T
27. More than three degrees of vowel height F
28. Phonemic stress F
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages] T
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed T
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic) T
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal) T
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative) F (no contrastive fricatives)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) T
35. CVCC syllables allowed T
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed] F
37. CLV syllables allowed T
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA] F
39. CCCV syllables allowed T
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates) T
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed T
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed T
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants) F
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both] F
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes F
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever] F
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates] T
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal) ? only one contrastive nasal. F.
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries T
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic F
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony F
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all T
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] T
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables F
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA (if you don't count velar and labiovelar separately) T I guess?

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal F? there is no contrastive velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones F? there is no tone system
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides] T
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation) F
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants T
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless F there are no phonation distinctions
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction] F
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops] F there are no fricatives
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal] F there are no fricatives
Total: 36 points. Not too European I guess.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:43 pm 
Avisaru
Avisaru

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:28 pm
Posts: 443
‮suoenatroN wrote:
This thread will mostly be about designing a phoneme inventory, but there wasn't enough room in the title for that.

The voiced retroflex implosive is unattested, although that might be a statistical anomaly.


Statistical anomaly. Sindhi has [ᶑ] but not [ɗ].


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:16 am 
Lebom
Lebom
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:45 am
Posts: 203
Location: Australia
Nisuese

/m n/
/p pʰ t tʰ k kʰ/
/ts tsʰ~tʃʰ tʃ/
/f s ʃ x~h/
/r~l j w/

/i u/
/e a/
/ei ai/
/eu au/

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing
3. Phonemic voicing only on stops and fricatives
4. Voicing distinction on fricatives but only labial and/or coronal fricatives
5. /v/ but no /w/
6. One fewer phonemic POA for nasals than for stops and affricates combined
7. No single MOA found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs
8. At least one non-glottal POA with at least one fricative but no stops (not counting affricates as stops)
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops)
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruents
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. 4 stop/affricate POAs
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA and no double articulation [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Voicing as the only phonation distinction
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height
28. Phonemic stress
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
33. CVF syllables allowed (F = fricative)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF] [no mark if CVCCC syllables not allowed]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA]
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. CCV syllables allowed but SSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCCV syllables allowed but CCNV syllables not allowed
42. CCV syllables allowed but SNV syllables not allowed
43. Sonority hierarchy violation in consonant clusters allowed only for fricatives (stops -> fricatives -> liquids -> approximants)
44. One syllabic consonant, a rhotic [half mark if lateral or both]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. No non-glottal POA with only one MOA, and that MOA isn't fricative [not counting /w/ as labial-velar or whatever]
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. Presence of an approximant/non-alveolar rhotic
51. 9 or more vowel POAs AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Vowel mergers in unstressed syllables
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA (if you don't count velar and labiovelar separately)

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length and quality, but not syllable-specific tone or phonation)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Total: 43.5%

_________________
Native: English || Pretty decent: Ancient Greek || Alright: Ancient Hebrew || Eh: Welsh || Basic: Mandarin Chinese || Very basic: French, Latin, Gamilaraay, Syriac, Nisuese, Old Apsiska
Conlangs: Pofp'ash, Nisuese, Apsiska


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:25 am 
Sumerul
Sumerul
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:41 am
Posts: 2829
Location: Davis, CA
How are people generally counting affricates in questions that are concerned with the ratios of different MOAs? Are they counted as stops, or as another category?

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[ʈʂʰɤŋtɕjɑŋ], or whatever you can comfortably pronounce that's close to that

Formerly known as Primordial Soup

Supporter of use of [ȶ ȡ ȵ ȴ] in transcription

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a 青.


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