How to design a non-European phonology

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Nortaneous
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Nortaneous »

You can't get points for 4 without hitting 3, right? (edit: also, I'm assuming 5 is supposed to leave out glottal?)
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Cedh »

You can get points for 4 but not 3 if you have more than two series.

---

Proto-Indo-European (assuming that *h₁ *h₂ *h₃ = /h x ɣʷ/)

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar] (assuming that the plain velars had uvular allophones)
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series) (three series: P B Bʰ)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs] (if *h₁ was not glottal, but whatever the "palatovelars" had for their POA, all three stop series would span all POAs, so I'm counting a half mark here)
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing (voiced aspirates are present)
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs (half mark because *ey *ew *oy *ow are underlyingly vowel + consonant, not a true diphthong)
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees] (three degrees on the phonetic level, but *i *u are generally considered allophones of *y *w)
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages] (pitch accent)
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed

36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed

40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates) (don't know exactly, but SSV are possible in zero-grade roots, and theoretically CSSV and/or SSCV should be possible too)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed

43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates] (five POA reconstructed, although plain velars might not have been distinctive)
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. No more than two series of fricatives

51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA


The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]

S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental) (only if *i *u are counted as full vowels AND if *ā *ī *ū had already become phonemic through loss of coda laryngeals)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless (voiced aspirates are present)
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Total score: 69%

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Soap »

Many of the areal changes that make Euopean languages so distinctive seem to have arisen in the last 2000 years or so, hence old languages like PIE and even Latin barely qualify.
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Cedh »

Soap wrote:Many of the areal changes that make Euopean languages so distinctive seem to have arisen in the last 2000 years or so, hence old languages like PIE and even Latin barely qualify.
I know, that's exactly why I tried PIE... ;)

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Nortaneous »

Are there any natlangs that wouldn't hit 46? I can only think of one, and that's that one lang where the only fricative is /x/.

edit: Also, do you hit 48 if you don't have phonemic nasal consonants, but [N] can appear initially as an allophone of another consonant? What about 52?
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by dhok »

Amaquese:

1. absence of phonemic opposition velar/uvular - (Bach vs. back, /baχ/ vs. /bak/).
True, there are only velars, no uvulars.
2. phonemic voicing oppositions (/p/ vs. /b/ etc.) as the only distinctions between sounds with the same POA and MOA
This is also correct.
3. initial consonant clusters of the type "stop+sonorant" allowed
So far, yes, that's the case.
4. no initial velar nasal
No velar nasal at all, actually.
5. a wide variety of allowable clusters that, except for those that contain a sibilant and a stop, all adhere to the sonority hierarchy
Um...I think so? Initial /kt/ and /pt/ are allowed, but no nasal+plosive or similar.
6. only pulmonic consonants
7. no phonation or secondary articulation contrasts on vowels
8. three degrees of vowel height (minimum inventory i e a o u)
9. lack of lateral fricatives and affricates
a. two series of coronals
It does distinguish /θ ð/ and /s z/.
b. lack of a tone or register system
So far...I've wanted one of the Northern languages to have a pitch-accent system; why not Amaquese?
c. at least two of each of the following type of consonant: fricative, nasal, liquid, semivowel
Semivowels and vowels aren't really distinguished in Amaquese.

It does look European. It's supposed to.

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Jetboy »

OK, so a question regarding the diachronics of some of the stuff Nort mentioned: I figure that, since I can pronounce creaky voice, maybe I'll work it into my vowel system. However, I'd rather not have it be an unanalyzable block diachronically (e.g., something to the effect of "these vowels always have been, always are, and always will be creaky"), so that I can work in older surface level alterations, &c. How does one get creaky voice on vowels? Perhaps have ejectives at some point which fade but leave vowels creaky? I mean, information on these various phonations is wonderful, but somewhat lacking in utility without knowledge of how to implement them in langs.
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by ---- »

You could make them arise from historical low tone, and the tone was lost over time

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by TaylorS »

For Alpic:

absence of phonemic opposition velar/uvular
phonemic voicing oppositions (/p/ vs. /b/ etc.) as the only distinctions between sounds with the same POA and MOA
initial consonant clusters of the type "stop+sonorant" allowed
no initial velar nasal
a wide variety of allowable clusters that, except for those that contain a sibilant and a stop, all adhere to the sonority hierarchy
only pulmonic consonants
no phonation or secondary articulation contrasts on vowels
at least three degrees of vowel height (minimum inventory i e a o u)
lack of lateral fricatives and affricates
two series of coronals
lack of a tone or register system
at least two of each of the following type of consonant: fricative, nasal, liquid, semivowel


Mekoshan:

absence of phonemic opposition velar/uvular (Velar-Uvular contrast)
phonemic voicing oppositions (/p/ vs. /b/ etc.) as the only distinctions between sounds with the same POA and MOA (Aspiration contrast in plosives)
initial consonant clusters of the type "stop+sonorant" allowed
no initial velar nasal
a wide variety of allowable clusters that, except for those that contain a sibilant and a stop, all adhere to the sonority hierarchy (lots of initial plosive-plosive clusters)
only pulmonic consonants
no phonation or secondary articulation contrasts on vowels
at least three degrees of vowel height (minimum inventory i e a o u)
lack of lateral fricatives and affricates (lateral fricative)
two series of coronals
lack of a tone or register system (pitch accent)
at least two of each of the following type of consonant: fricative, nasal, liquid, semivowel (/l/ is the only liquid)


Kanusettian:

absence of phonemic opposition velar/uvular
phonemic voicing oppositions (/p/ vs. /b/ etc.) as the only distinctions between sounds with the same POA and MOA
initial consonant clusters of the type "stop+sonorant" allowed (only stop-approximant)
no initial velar nasal
a wide variety of allowable clusters that, except for those that contain a sibilant and a stop, all adhere to the sonority hierarchy (number of clusters is restricted)
only pulmonic consonants
no phonation or secondary articulation contrasts on vowels
at least three degrees of vowel height (minimum inventory i e a o u)
lack of lateral fricatives and affricates
two series of coronals
lack of a tone or register system
at least two of each of the following type of consonant: fricative, nasal, liquid, semivowel



Interesting that Mekoshan, my English descendant, is the least SAE of the 3.

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Nortaneous »

Code: Select all

   Knw Tha Enz Ren | PrK InK CrK CoK | Arv | Gad Hat Kan Ket Kas | Tne |
1.      ½   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |  ½   1   1       1  |     |
2.                 |                 |     |  1   ½   ½       1  |  ½  |
3.      1   1   1  |  1              |     |              1      |     |
4.                 |                 |     |  1                  |  ½  |
5.  1   1       1  |                 |     |                  1  |     |
6.  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |      1   1       1  |     |
7.  ½       ½   ½  |      ½          |     |  ½           ½   1  |  ½  |
8.                 |      ½   ½      |  ½  |      1           ½  |  ½  |
9.      ½       ½  |          ½      |     |  ½               1  |     |
10      1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |      1           1  |     |
11          1   1  |  1   ½   ½   1  |  1  |  ½                  |  1  |
12  ½   1          |  ½   1   1   ½  |  1  |  ½               1  |     |
13      1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |      1   1   1      |     |
14  1   1          |  ½   1   1   1  |  ½  |  1   1           1  |     |
15  ½   ½   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  ½  |  1   ½   ½   1      |  ½  |
16  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
17  1   1          |  1   1   1      |  1  |  1   1   1       1  |  ½  |
18  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |  1   1   1   1   1  |     |
19      1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |  1   1   1   1   1  |     |
20  ½   ½   ½   1  |  ½           1  |  1  |  ½   ½              |  ½  |
21      1   1      |                 |  1  |                     |     |
22          1      |  1   1   1   1  |  ½  |  1   1           1  |  1  |
23              1  |              1  |  1  |                     |     |
24              1  |              1  |  1  |                     |     |
25  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1      |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
26  1   1   1      |  1   1   1   1  |     |  1       ½       1  |     |
27          ½   1  |  ½           ½  |  1  |  ½   ½              |  ½  |
28                 |      1   1      |  1  |                     |     |
29  1   1   1   1  |  ½   1       ½  |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
30                 |      1          |     |          1   1   1  |     |
31  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |                  1  |     |
32  1   1   1      |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |          1   1   1  |     |
34  1   1   1   1  |  1   1       1  |  1  |          1       1  |     |
35  1   1   1   1  |  1   1       1  |     |          1       1  |     |  
36                 |                 |     |                     |     |
37  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |                  1  |     |
38  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |                  ½  |     |  
39  1   1          |  1   1       1  |     |                     |     |
40      1          |                 |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
41          1   1  |          1      |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
42                 |          1      |  1  |  1   1   1   1      |  1  |
43  1       1   1  |  1           1  |  1  |  1   1   1   1      |  1  |
44                 |  1           1  |  ½  |  1   1   ½   ½   ½  |  1  |
45  1       1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |          1          |     |  
46  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |  1   1   1       1  |  1  |
47      1   ½      |  1   1   1   1  |  ½  |  ½   1   1       1  |  1  |
48          1   ½  |  1   1   1   ½  |     |          1   1      |     |  
49                 |          1      |  1  |  1   1   1          |     |  
50  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
51              1  |                 |  1  |                     |     |  
52          1   1  |                 |     |  1       1   1      |  1  |
53  1   1   1      |  1   1       1  |     |          1   1   1  |     |
54  1   1   1      |  1           1  |     |      1   1   1   1  |     | 
55      1   1   1  |          1   1  |  1  |      1           1  |     |  
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
ST 24  31  33  31½ | 33  31½ 29½ 33  | 30½ | 25  26  28  20  32½ | 18
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
S1          1   1  |  1   1          |     |          1   1      |     |
S2  1   1   1   1  |  1   1       1  |  1  |  1   1   1   1   1  |  1  |
S3  1   1   1   1  |  1   1       1  |     |              1   1  |     |
S4              1  |                 |  1  |      1              |     |
S5      1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |  1   1   1   1   1  |     |
S6  1   1   1   1  |  1   1   1   1  |     |  1   1   1   1   1  |     |
S7                 |                 |     |  1   1           1  |     |
S8          1      |  1   1   1   1  |  ½  |      1   ½       1  |  ½  |
S9          1   1  |      ½   1   ½  |     |      1   1   1   1  |  1  |
—————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
ST 15  20  35  35  | 30  32½ 20  27½ | 10½ | 20  35  27½ 30  35  | 12½
%: 39  51  68  66½ | 63  64  49½ 60½ | 41  | 45  61  55½ 50  67½ | 30½
So, to order my conlangs from most to least European, bolding the ones currently in progress:
Enzielu
Kastas
Renzell
Insular Kett
Proto-Kett

Hathe
Continental Kett
Kanagy
Tharu
Ketas
Cerrais Kett
Gadaye
Arve
Kannow
Tnerakhii


Tnerakhii, my Salish-inspired clicklang, definitely belongs on the bottom, but I'm not sure how those Hathic langs made it that high, especially Kastas, which will probably turn out looking something like Xaa xiiuz rfsuu stfisf staxiiu sf, and Kanagy, which has eight consonants. Even more surprising is that Cerrais Kett, a tonal dialect of Insular Kett, scored below not only Kastas and Kanagy, but also Ketas, a labialless vowelfest (example words: aaeekew, taaodoow, iitaaa, ǫǫǫ; <w> is a voiced epiglottal fricative) where the first-person pronoun has an epiglottal. I'm guessing that only happened because it's tonal.
Jetboy wrote:OK, so a question regarding the diachronics of some of the stuff Nort mentioned: I figure that, since I can pronounce creaky voice, maybe I'll work it into my vowel system. However, I'd rather not have it be an unanalyzable block diachronically (e.g., something to the effect of "these vowels always have been, always are, and always will be creaky"), so that I can work in older surface level alterations, &c. How does one get creaky voice on vowels? Perhaps have ejectives at some point which fade but leave vowels creaky? I mean, information on these various phonations is wonderful, but somewhat lacking in utility without knowledge of how to implement them in langs.
Ejectives could work, as could vowel+glottal stop sequences and maybe even low tone. I don't know much about the diachronics of various phonations, unfortunately, beyond that creaky voice can come from glottal stops and breathy voice can come from glottal fricatives, and I don't have access to any resources because my college is shit.
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Ollock »

OK, I'll try a natlang.

Standard Mandarin Chinese (based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology as well as personal knowledge)
1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar] (I'm going back and fourth as to whether Mandarin has a marginal glottal stop. Maybe not in the standard dialect.)
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps) (three of them: aspirated stops, unaspirated stops, and nasals)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number] (Mandarin is, in fact, quite fricative-happy)
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one] (again, going with the standard here -- I have known Chinese who do not distinguish /l ɻ/)
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA] (making this a half point -- the rhotic is retroflex, while the lateral is alveolar. I wouldn't count these as different POAs in English, but in Mandarin retroflex is a very prominent POA.)
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs] (seven on the nose)
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern) (I'm assuming this applies to things like [k͡s] and not to affricates)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing (doesn't even have voicing)[/color]
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more] (I am going to count this, but keep in mind that Mandarin vowels are somewhat insane. There are, in fact, about a dozen phonetic vowels, but some analyses reduce those to as few as three phonemes. In any case, as you look through these vowel questions, keep in mind that Mandarin is notorious for having a difficult-to-describe vowel system.)
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony (Thank Almighty GOD! If Mandarin had vowel harmony on top of its crazy vowels I think I might kill myself)
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress] (no differential stress at all)
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages] (here we go, the famous tones)
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed[/quote]
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)[/quote] (this is marginal outside of Beijing, but I'll count it full, anyway)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal) (but only /n/)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed (you may have noticed by now that Chinese phonotactics is very strict on consonants
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants) (one could argue whether or not [ʐ̩] can be considered a syllabic consonant. It is usually considered a vowel)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel] (ditto above)
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes (oh, god yes. Six of them, in fact.)
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates] (counting affricates it would be five)
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries (no gemination at all)
50. No more than two series of fricatives (one series)
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony (counted, but with the usual caveat about vowel craziness)
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] (Ha! Mandarin has only *2* possible codas!)
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] (I'm not even going to try to puzzle this one out properly. I'll just say yes and be done with it.)

55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA (alveolar)

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal (Interestingly, a number of Chinese languages DO allow this, and Cantonese allows the velar nasal to stand on its own as a syllable. But Mandarin only allows the velar nasal as a coda.)
S2. No tone system with more than two tones (Pfah! Mandarin laughs at two-tone systems!)
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides] (did I mention Mandarin hates consonant clusters?)
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental) (Ah, I think this will check out. Do understand, as I said above, counting vowels in Mandarin is a pain in the ass.)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless (BTW, this is in the other list.)
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction] (screw voicing -- aspiration on plosives and affricates, that's where it's at, baby!)
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops] (Oh God, yes.)
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal] (if affricates are "non-fricative", then no)

So ... 62%? That can't be right! Maybe if I put more effort into figuring out the vowels.
George Corley
Producer and Moderating Host, Conlangery Podcast

TaylorS
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by TaylorS »

Mekoshan

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Mekoshan is 76% SAE.

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Nortaneous »

Ollock wrote:So ... 62%? That can't be right! Maybe if I put more effort into figuring out the vowels.
I think anything below 75% or so counts as non-European, with a very sharp dropoff from there. Hell, Dahalo gets 53.5%.

woooo, over a third of my conlangs are less phonologically European than Dahalo! :P
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by brandrinn »

This may have been dealt with already, but how about /v/ versus /w/? Nearly all European languages have /v/, and use it in the types of phonemic environments where approximants would go. Many European languages have no /w/ at all.

(Also, is there any way we can get rid of these "Hey, look at my conlangs!" posts? Split them into another thread or something; they make this thread nearly unreadable.)
[quote="Nortaneous"]Is South Africa better off now than it was a few decades ago?[/quote]

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Leliel »

Nayraki:

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Heh, only 53%? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, Japanese (my L2) was sort of the foundation...

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Maharba »

It might be fun to try and design an inventory that did not match any of these rules. Are there any natlangs that don't?

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Ollock »

brandrinn wrote:This may have been dealt with already, but how about /v/ versus /w/? Nearly all European languages have /v/, and use it in the types of phonemic environments where approximants would go. Many European languages have no /w/ at all.
... and lack of v/w distinction would be another thing that Mandarin would happen to have. Certain dialects even have [v] for standard /w/. I'm starting to smell a conspiracy theory :P
(Also, is there any way we can get rid of these "Hey, look at my conlangs!" posts? Split them into another thread or something; they make this thread nearly unreadable.)
May be a good idea. Someone should take Sal's list and put it up on a website, where anyone who wants can take it to test their own conlang. Making it into a form with check boxes would be helpful.
Maharba wrote:It might be fun to try and design an inventory that did not match any of these rules. Are there any natlangs that don't?
I would be surprised. Some of these rules overlap, and some come close to leaving no options in between. I wouldn't be surprised if it's impossible to avoid at least a few points just from half-pointers.
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Izambri »

Hellesan

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar 0
2. Phonemic voicing +1
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series) 0
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone +1
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays +1
6. Nasals at multiple POAs +1
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs +1
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) +1
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops +1
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) +1
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes +0.5 (39, counting all dialectal variations, but 29 if the restricted sets are counted).
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics +0.5
13. No lateral obstruents 0
14. One phonemic rhotic (half mark if more than one) +0.5
15. 5-7 POAs +1
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern) 0 (Hellesan has ɫ w ɕ ʑ tʲ dʲ zʲ kʷ gʷ)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA +1
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing +1
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind +1
20. 7 or more vowel qualities +1
21. Three or more diphthongs +1
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels +1
23. One front rounded vowel. 0
24. Two or more front rounded vowels +0.5 (Only in a few dialects)
25. No vowel harmony +1 (Found in a small dialectal area, though)
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. +1 (Length doesn't count at all)
27. More than three degrees of vowel height +1
28. Phonemic stress +1
29. No phonemic tone +1
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed +1
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic) +1
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal) +1
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop) +1
35. CVCC syllables allowed 0
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF +1
37. CLV syllables allowed +1
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. 0
39. CCCV syllables allowed 0
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates) +1
41. CCNV syllables not allowed +1
42. SNV syllables not allowed +1
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants) 0
44. All words must include at least one vowel +1
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes +1
46. If a MOA exists or a MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants) +1
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) +1
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal) +0.5
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries 0
50. No more than two series of fricatives 0
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony +1
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all 0
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] 0
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] 0
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA +1

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal +5
S2. No tone system with more than two tones +5
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides +5
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental) +5
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants 0
S6. No phonation distinctions other than voiced/voiceless +5
S7. Phonemic voice distinction +5
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops +5
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants +2.5

Hellesan is 75% SAE. Guaranteed
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Eyowa »

I wonder what a phonology that violated as many of these as possible would look like...

Stops: t tʰ tʼ tʷ q qʰ qʼ qʷ ʔ
Coarticulated t͡q t͡qʰ (eurgh, that feels weird to pronounce)
Nasals: ɴ
Laterals: ɬ ɬʼ
ɴ and ɬ can be syllabic. Otherwise, syllable structure is strictly CV.

Vowels: a i ɯ a̰ ḭ ɯ̰
5 tones, Mandarin-style

Words can't end in ɯ or ɯ̰

Vowels in a word must all have either creaky or modal voice.
Sample words:

ɬ̣tʼā̰ ɴɯɴi ɬʼítʷì tʷa̰ɴɯ̰̀qʷḭ qʼḭ̄ɴ ɬʷɯɴ̣ɴʷí ɬḭ̄t͡qʰìtá̰ ɬḭ́qʰḭ ɴàqì ɬ̣ɴḭ̀tʼà̰

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]

2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs] (fricatives everywhere!)
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions] (disregarding /h/ which has [ɦ] only as an allophone)
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number] (phonetically, at least)

10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]

11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40] (do syllabics count?)

12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
(not distinguished from rhotics, and more than one)
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]

15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]

16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)

17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]

18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing

19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]

20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]

21. Three or more diphthongs

22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels] [ɤ] and [ɯ]

23. One front rounded vowel.

24. Two or more front rounded vowels

25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed marginal in two roots
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed

40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed

43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)

44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)

49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries (oops. Easy enough to add, though)
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]

54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] (see 51... phonemically, yes, phonetically, no, any final vowel occurs in another quality)
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA


The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal (I'm counting uvular as velar)
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
(I'm assuming this is only for consonants)
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]


Overall: 4% SAE.

Hmm... now I want to make this language.
/"e.joU.wV/
faiuwle wrote:
Torco wrote:yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish
Sounds like it belongs in the linguistics garden next to the germinating nasals.

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Nortaneous
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Nortaneous »

It's impossible to get 0%. If you don't hit 41, you hit 39.
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finlay
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by finlay »

Eyowa wrote:I wonder what a phonology that violated as many of these as possible would look like...

Stops: t tʰ tʼ tʷ q qʰ qʼ qʷ ʔ
Coarticulated t͡q t͡qʰ (eurgh, that feels weird to pronounce)
Nasals: ɴ
Laterals: ɬ ɬʼ
ɴ and ɬ can be syllabic. Otherwise, syllable structure is strictly CV.

Vowels: a i ɯ a̰ ḭ ɯ̰
5 tones, Mandarin-style

Words can't end in ɯ or ɯ̰

Vowels in a word must all have either creaky or modal voice.
Sample words:

ɬ̣tʼā̰ ɴɯɴi ɬʼítʷì tʷa̰ɴɯ̰̀qʷḭ qʼḭ̄ɴ ɬʷɯɴ̣ɴʷí ɬḭ̄t͡qʰìtá̰ ɬḭ́qʰḭ ɴàqì ɬ̣ɴḭ̀tʼà̰

*1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
Not sure if it counts when you don't also have velars.
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
*5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps) You have the same coarticulations at each POA for stops.
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
*7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs] (fricatives everywhere!) Stops are found at each POA
*8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions] (disregarding /h/ which has [ɦ] only as an allophone) Half a mark because you have the distinction between [ɬ ɬʼ], ejective distinction at the same POA.
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number] (phonetically, at least)
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40] (do syllabics count?)
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
(not distinguished from rhotics, and more than one)
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
*16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern) For it to be systematic, you will need to make an entire series of double-articulated consonants. Also, I might suggest [q͡t], which is easier to pronounce because the q is further back.
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation] Although again, I might suggest that for it to be truly systematic, the labialisation will have to coarticulate with aspirates and ejectives too.
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels] [ɤ] and [ɯ]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed marginal in two roots
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed

40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
You could fix 40 and 42 easily. You could only fix 41 if you allow 39.
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)

49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries (oops. Easy enough to add, though)
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
* 52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all Hmmm
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found] (see 51... phonemically, yes, phonetically, no, any final vowel occurs in another quality) Half mark for only 2 exceptions.
* 55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal (I'm counting uvular as velar)
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
(I'm assuming this is only for consonants)
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]


Overall: 4% SAE.

Hmm... now I want to make this language.
fixed that for you.

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Kereb
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Kereb »

aight, for Ishtol:


1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
phonemic /ʔ/ .
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
the ONLY consonant distinguished by voice is /b/, which is implosive most places outside the Capital
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
besides /b/, there's only an unvoiced stop series: /p t k ʔ/
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
no voicing distinction on any fricatives: /s ʃ h/ .
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
four stop POAs, three fricative POAs
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
16.
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
ejective allophones of stop/affricate+/ʔ/ clusters (or the reverse). Not phonemic. Ingressive variant of /b/ .
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
five.
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
fixed phrase-unit pitch accent
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
exactly 10: five qualities, two lengths
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
see above
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

= 61.5% SAE.
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.

TaylorS
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Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by TaylorS »

Alpic:

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Alpic is 80% SAE.

Kanussetian:

1. Absence of any phonemic POA for stops further back than velar [half mark for only one stop-POA behind velar, or for prominent allophonic stops behind velar]
2. Phonemic voicing [half mark if voicing is only part of the distinction]
3. Two and only two parallel series of phonemes at each POA at which at least one stop is present (glottal, if present, excluded from the series) (a series still counts if it is missing only one phoneme from the expected series)
4. At least two series distinguished by voicing alone (i.e. at each POA where one of the series occurs, the other occurs and the only difference is voicing) (up to one POA where this is not true allowed) [half mark if voicing is one feature distinguishing the series].
5. At least two series with identical POA arrays (i.e. at least two series not showing any gaps)
6. Nasals at multiple POAs
7. No single MOA (stops, fricatives, nasals, liquids) found at all POAs [half mark if only one MOA at all POAs]
8. Voicing distinction on all fricatives (one gap permitted) [half mark for some other distinction between fricatives at same POA, or for more than one gap, or voicing can be distinctive in some circumstances but isn't the only distinction - but no more than one of these exceptions]
9. Fricatives distinguish more POAs than (non-nasal) stops [half mark if they distinguish the same number]
10. More non-stops than stops (not counting nasals as either stops or non-stops) [half mark if this is true counting nasals as non-stops]
11. Between 20 and 30 consonant phonemes [half mark if between 15 and 40]
12. One phonemic lateral, distinguished from rhotics [half mark if more than one]
13. No lateral obstruants
14. One phonemic rhotic [half mark if more than one, or if there is a phonemic lateral not distinguished from a rhotic at the same POA]
15. 5-7 POAs [half mark if at least 4 POAs]
16. No systematic double-articulation (i.e. double-articulation limited to a few 'random' phonemes, not a cohesive pattern)
17. No systematic secondary articulation at more than one POA [half mark if there is systematic palatal secondary articulation]
18. Absence of any phonemic phonation distinction other than voicing
19. No clicks, ejectives, or ingressive consonants of any kind [half mark if one of these categories occurs not as a series]
20. 7 or more vowel qualities [half mark for 5 or more]
21. Three or more diphthongs
22. No non-low back unrounded vowels [half mark if no high back unrounded vowels]
23. One front rounded vowel.
24. Two or more front rounded vowels
25. No vowel harmony
26. Vowels distinguished solely by height, frontness, roundedness and length. (i.e. no voice distinctions, rhotic vowels, ATR, nasal vowels, etc) [half mark for nasal vowels not occuring at all vowel qualities]
27. More than three degrees of vowel height [half mark for three degrees]
28. Phonemic stress [half mark for fixed initial stress]
29. No phonemic tone [half mark for pitch-accent or two-tone languages]
30. Syllables without onset consonants allowed
31. CVL syllables allowed (L = lateral or rhotic)
32. CVN syllables allowed (N = nasal)
34. CVS syllables allowed (S = stop)
35. CVCC syllables allowed
36. CVCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCF [half mark if CVCCCC syllables not allowed other than CVCCCF]
37. CLV syllables allowed
38. FCV syllables allowed (F = fricative), where C is not a glide or a liquid. [but only half mark if C cannot be a member of a particular series (eg nasal, voiced, ejective, fricative etc) or POA.
39. CCCV syllables allowed
40. SSV or CSSV or SSCV syllables not allowed (not including geminates)
41. CCNV syllables not allowed
42. SNV syllables not allowed
43. Syllabic consonants only in word-final (not including compounds!) position (includes no syllabic consonants)
44. All words must include at least one vowel [half mark if all content-words include at least one vowel]
45. (At least some) affricates treated as phonemes
46. If an MOA exists or an MOA/phonation combination, it exists at a coronal POA (not including approximants)
47. No more than four POAs for stops (affricates not counted) [half mark for five, or counting affricates]
48. No initial nasal other than /m/ or /n/ (half mark if other initial nasals but not initial velar or uvular nasal)
49. No phonemic distinction of consonant length, or gemination, except across morpheme boundaries
50. No more than two series of fricatives
51. 9 or more vowel qualities AND no vowel harmony
52. No velar (or uvular, etc) nasals at all
53. Words can end in any consonant [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
54. Words can end in any vowel [half mark if 1-2 exceptions found]
55. More phonemes at a single coronal POA than at any other single POA

The following special questions are each worth 5 marks (in addition to any they may have gained in the above):
S1. No initial velar nasal
S2. No tone system with more than two tones
S3. Syllables of both CCV and CVC form appear (not necessarily for all C), where all Cs can be non-glides [2.5 marks if this is true but some Cs must be glides]
S4. At least 10 vowels in total (including length, quality, and syllable-specific tone, not including anything suprasegmental)
S5. No non-pulmonic consonants
S6. No phonation disticntions other than voiced/voiceless
S7. Phonemic voice distinction [2.5 marks if it is only one aspect of a distinction]
S8. Fricatives and affricates, added together, outnumber plain non-nasal stops [2.5 marks if fricatives, affricates, liquids and glides together outnumber (nasals + stops), OR if the fricatives+affricates EQUALS non-nasal stops]
S9. Ignoring stops and nasals: more fricatives than non-fricative consonants [2.5 marks if equal]

Kanussetian is 64% SAE

User avatar
Xephyr
Avisaru
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Posts: 821
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm

Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by Xephyr »

Salmoneus wrote:Regarding 3, 4, and 5, it might be easier to use examples to explain.

The first says that at each stop-POA, there are two phonemes, and that these two at each POA form two series. But that one stop was allowed per series.
Eg:

p - t - k
b - d - g

--- t - k
b- d- g

p - t - k
--- s - x

p - t ----
m - n - N

All meet this. But:
p - t - k - q
b - d -------
doesn't (the voiced 'series' has too many gaps)

And
p - t - k - q
b - d - g ---
m - n - N ---
doesn't (too many series)

But:
p - t - k - q
b - d - g ---
m- n --------
does! (the nasals are too incomplete to count as a third series)
I've read this and read this and read it, then read it and read it again, and it still makes absolutely no sense.
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
The Gospel of Thomas

User avatar
finlay
Sumerul
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Posts: 3600
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Location: Tokyo

Re: How to design a non-European phonology

Post by finlay »

Even when you get what he's trying to say, it doesn't make a lot of sense why you'd measure it like that in the first place.

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