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zompist bboard • View topic - How to design a non-European phonology

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 6:30 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:07 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:45 pm 
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So there you go, you do in fact have 13.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:43 pm 
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wasn't there a bit about fricatives having to be coronal? if not, there's a good question to add for the next revision of the test. europe has pretty much only ts and tʃ whereas pf or tɬ might be observed elsewhere

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:06 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:14 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:16 am 
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YEP

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Several European languages have /ʨ/ or the like. Palatal is not coronal.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:53 pm 
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/tK/ is sort of protected by the one rule stating only one lateral, but that's sort only a single rule so you can get all sorts of weird things happening. But maybe there should be a rule saying 'only coronal affricates'. Besides, /ts\/ is palato-alveolar, rather than just palatal, so I would say that it's covered. I would also count retro flex consonants under that.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:41 pm 
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Ο ορανς τα ανα̨ριθομον ϝερρον εͱεν ανθροποτροφον.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:28 pm 
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It is debatable whether German has affricates.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:03 pm 
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Standard German can be analyzed as only having consonant clusters if you are willing to take advantage of the fact that there are loanwords with Cf clusters. It is very unequivocally the case in those dialects of Swiss German with kx), as there is no other Cx cluster; not even across morpheme boundaries.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:49 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:04 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:00 am 
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a) I'm a native speaker of German. Two dialects, in fact.
b) Nort has German skills.
c) That is irrelevant, as speaking it does not make you an expert on the language.
d) What a cluster (or any consonant really) is realized as is absolutely irrelevant in the context of phonology. If a phoneme that patters with a palatal nasal is realized as t͡ʃ that still means that in the context of its phonology it is treatable as a "palatal stop". Et cetera.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:10 am 
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Well, it is really not my Intention at all to seem arrogant and you're right that being a native speaker does not automatically mean that you're an expert on the language, but: As I am an active member of this forum, it's obviously quite likely that I tend to know more about language than average native speakers. So please do not make any assumptions about me without even knowing me.

I agree with you that a specific phonetic realization is not necessarily phonemic as well, but in this case I see no reason at all why German affricates should not be analyzed as affricates. Are there any plausible reasons that would suggest to consider the phonetic affricates clusters? I'm wating for objective arguments.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:31 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:44 am 
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I won't make claims to be especially knowledgeable on this subject, but I have never seen any analysis of German indicating that its "affricates" were really consonant clusters. Everything I've seen falls in line with HG having /pf/, /ts/, /tʃ/.

I'm really curious about the theoretical justifications for this if you could point me toward the paper, manuscript, or author. EDIT: is this Kohler?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:34 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:02 pm 
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Nortaneous is just insisting on his claim, which he has made several times before, that no natlang has non-coronal affricates, so he has to explain /p͡f/ away as a cluster ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Has anyone ever made a thread or test for how much the grammar of your conlang follows European models along the lines of this thread?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:08 pm 
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The argument goes the way Inversion said: there's no way to distinguish in phonotactics between affricates and stop+fricative clusters. Zahl /tsa:l/, but psychologie /psyxologi:/, and so on.

Then again I don't know if there are any voiced stop + fricative clusters other than /dZ/, and if you admit /dZ/ as an affricate you may as well admit the rest of them.

I don't think *no* natlangs have non-coronal affricates. What I've said is that 1) non-coronal affricates are very rare, and 2) in the vast majority of natlangs, affricates pattern more like a place of articulation than a method -- it is rare for there to be a stop and an affricate at the same place of articulation. It is certainly not the case that non-coronal affricates are *nonexistent* -- German and many of its dialects have them; Nama developed one from /k_h/; there is a dialect of Tsonga that apparently has two fully labiodental affricates /p_df b_dv/ [but even then, there is no labiodental stop!] -- and there are even some languages (like German and Nama, and I've seen a few that contrast /ʈ ʈ͡ʂ/) that *do* have stops and affricates at the same place of articulation. The point is that they are *rare*, and a common feature of conlangs made by people who do not know what they are doing at all. It is not the case that no natural languages have interdental fricatives, front rounded vowels, a light/dark l contrast, orthographic thorn, etc., but it *is* the case that noobs tend to have a vague knowledge of the same bits of the same three or four languages, one of which is German, and come to the same conclusions, like "hey wouldn't it be cool if I put in a full affricate series???", thus giving away that they do not know what they are doing and should read so much as a Wikipedia page about at least one language that... I guess I can't say "is not spoken in Europe" anymore thanks to the curious immigration policies of certain European countries so how about "was not spoken in Europe before 1900".

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:48 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:28 am 
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is bulgarian [ts] dental or alveolar
is bulgarian [t] dental or alveolar

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