Alahithian

[ol bofosh]

As I've mentioned in another thread I am working on a language I have called Alahithian (alahitiano in Spanish, Alahitien in French, Alaiteach in Scots Gaelic (???), Alahithisch in Dutch, Alahitisch in German and alahith in Alahithian (any more suggestions welcome, even from other conlangs)). So here's some of what I've worked on already. I'll come back with updates. Please feel free to comment or critique.

Here're are my letters (for a phonetic reference see here. I speak estuary English, so some examples may be based on that):

Vowels: a, e, i, o, ôo and u.

Consonants: b, d, dh, f, g, h, hh, j, jh, k, l, m, n, ng, p, r, s, sh, t, th, v, w, y, z, zh

These Roman characters are for temporary use. I want to use something slightly different than my nyoo alfêbet, which is for a more or less phonetic English.

In spelling there are no double consonants or vowels, except in the case of verb tenses (and perhaps others that I've yet to consider).

Verb infinitives end with any of the above vowels and then either r, w, or y. So it could be ar, ow, ôoy, uw etc etc..

ethey - to exist
bachaw - to live (violently)
sanay - to live (peacefully)
bosir - to fly
inediy - to come
onedoy - to go
I've created a lot more verbs.

Negative is -el.

Personal pronouns are:
om (first person singular)
on (second person singular, informal)
in (second person singular, formal)
ong (third person singular)
am (exclusive first person plural)
ôom (inclusive first person plural)
an (second person plural, informal)
en (second person, plural, formal)
ang (third person plural)

Reflexive is achieved by adding the first letter on the end as well: omo (myself), ini (yourself), anga (themselves) etc..

For verb phrase structure I've chosen SOV with pronouns and SVO (which I believe is like French?). If there are two pronouns then there are combined: omong mesir = I hear it.

(if you look on a phonetic chart you may see the coincidence of m, n and ng in pronouns, as well as r, w, and y in verbs and p, t, k in tense)

Nouns I've created something a little different. Singular ends are p, t, k, th, f, s, sh, and jh. For plurals they have the same sounds but with voice, so they are b, t, g, dh, z, zh, and j respectively.

So bachak (war) becomes bachag (wars) and sanas (time of peace) becomes sanaz (times of peace).

Emphasis is on the first letter, though I'm having difficulty sustaining that pattern with longer words or negative verbs. Perhaps when a word is negative it is emphasised on the negative: bathefiwEl (to not remember).

Possible cultural context is of a branch of humanity that was taken away from Earth to fight the wars of an alien race. They are no longer needed and are free to join an enclave of their own or travel back home to Earth. They have arrived and now must find ways of integrating with today's world (they don't want to conquer because they've had enough of war).

I think that's enough for the moment.

[Qwynegold]

Here're are my letters (for a phonetic reference see here. I speak estuary English, so some examples may be based on that):

Vowels: a, e, i, o, ôo and u.

Consonants: b, d, dh, f, g, h, hh, j, jh, k, l, m, n, ng, p, r, s, sh, t, th, v, w, y, z, zh

These Roman characters are for temporary use. I want to use something slightly different than my nyoo alfêbet, which is for a more or less phonetic English.

I don't know your dialect so please use IPA or X-SAMPA.

[Grunnen]

I don't know your dialect so please use IPA or X-SAMPA.

Preferably the former if you'd ask me. And indeed, do use either one, for this is posting in code without providing a key.
Why do you use specific final consonants with different word classes? Is that part of some verb/noun class thing? I don't know if you've thought about it, but have you a specific history in mind that resulted in the voicing of the final consonant in nouns to form the plural? Is it your aim to create a naturalistic human language, or is your alien setting meant as a way to introduce unhuman things? Because if it's not, you might want to change your pronoun system, which is probably highly confusing, as al the pronouns consist of a VN string, with V=vowel and N=nasal consonant. I think I'd have a hard time disentangling al these pronouns in normal conversation. Also, there's nothing wrong with some more irregularity in there. IF that's what you're going for of course. I like the reduplication for the reflexive. It's funny I think.

[ol bofosh]

I would love to use IPA or X-SAMPA, I really would. But I'd have to figure them out first, which I will, one day...

My dialect isn't too different from most other English dialects. It's somewhere between cockney and the Queen's English, so the examples above may not be too hard to figure out. Somewhere between Michael McIntire and Lee Hurst, if you've heard of them. I'm sure they're on Youtube.

I have seen the phonetics table and have figured out the sounds from there, but it would be painstaking work for me.

Why do you use specific final consonants with different word classes?

So I have a way of not confusing them from one another whilst creating it. I think I've unintentionally copied some of what Spanish does.

If I didn't do something to make them distinguishable I might get a headache later if some words are indistinguishable in a sentence and I have to figure out the grammar so the difference can be made. Baby steps

I don't know if you've thought about it, but have you a specific history in mind that resulted in the voicing of the final consonant in nouns to form the plural?

Nothing so far. I'm really a beginner, so I'm still at the stage of figuring out how language works in a grammatical way without adding cultural dimension to it. I'm sure I can invent something later

It may also turn out that most of my adjectives end with a vowel. That's still something I want to figure out.

Is it your aim to create a naturalistic human language, or is your alien setting meant as a way to introduce unhuman things?

My aim is to create a practice naturalistic language. I've given no thought to introducing unhuman things, though maybe some unusual concepts or something. Something a bit more creative than direct translations from English or Spanish.

I started off thinking about the extra-terrestrial humans' language culture, but I'm finding that learning basic language-building grammar is taken a lot of my attention, so it's taken a back seat for the moment. It's like trying to find ways through a maze that has more than two dimensions lol.

Because if it's not, you might want to change your pronoun system, which is probably highly confusing, as al the pronouns consist of a VN string, with V=vowel and N=nasal consonant. I think I'd have a hard time disentangling al these pronouns in normal conversation.

I thought so. How many times have you heard "Not "n" for nothing, "m" for mother" lol. For the moment, since I'll only be using it for writing, it can stay as it is. It's a prototype. It all is really.

And if I keep it maybe these extra-terrestrial humans have keen enough ears to tell the difference, or they might be physiologically different enough that it sounds different to our ears. I'm sure I can think of something.

Also, there's nothing wrong with some more irregularity in there. IF that's what you're going for of course.

Absolutely. I've just done some work on some (goes of to look at the term) non-personal pronouns, which turned out not to be as regular as the rest of what I've done. I'll share those here at some point soon.

I like the reduplication for the reflexive. It's funny I think.

I quite liked that too. Nice and simple, and it has it's own logic. Certainly a feature I would like to keep.

[Grunnen]

I would love to use IPA or X-SAMPA, I really would. But I'd have to figure them out first, which I will, one day...

http://web.uvic.ca/ling/resources/ipa/c ... IPAlab.htm
(this one has recordings of the sounds going with the letters)
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Lis ... id/1656732
http://weston.ruter.net/projects/ipa-ch ... /keyboard/
http://www.theiling.de/cgi/cxs-ipa.cgi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipa

My dialect isn't too different from most other English dialects. It's somewhere between cockney and the Queen's English, so the examples above may not be too hard to figure out. Somewhere between Michael McIntire and Lee Hurst, if you've heard of them. I'm sure they're on Youtube.

Undoubtedly, but that still doesn't mean I know what the letters you posted are supposed to represent sound-wise.

I have seen the phonetics table and have figured out the sounds from there, but it would be painstaking work for me.

Just like it would be painstaking work for us to try and figure out what you mean with the letters you posted. If you want people to comment on your conlang, on its content, you'll really have to present it in a way that people can just read it and understand. But you'd only have to do this figuring out which sounds you mean once. After that, you can just go back to your notes and type from there.

Why do you use specific final consonants with different word classes?

So I have a way of not confusing them from one another whilst creating it. I think I've unintentionally copied some of what Spanish does.

If I didn't do something to make them distinguishable I might get a headache later if some words are indistinguishable in a sentence and I have to figure out the grammar so the difference can be made. Baby steps

How do you keep track of your vocab? If you use eg excel as your dictionary, it doesn't need to be too daunting to find what you meant with a certain word, even if it doesn't have a standard ending. Also, you could work with noun or verb classes, or cases, that you mark on all words, in which case you also get recognisable endings. Just a thought

I don't know if you've thought about it, but have you a specific history in mind that resulted in the voicing of the final consonant in nouns to form the plural?

Nothing so far. I'm really a beginner, so I'm still at the stage of figuring out how language works in a grammatical way without adding cultural dimension to it. I'm sure I can invent something later

Just being curious

It may also turn out that most of my adjectives end with a vowel. That's still something I want to figure out.

You could, if you wanted, use a similar trick as I described for verbs and nouns to get some kind of regular adjective-endings.

My aim is to create a practice naturalistic language. I've given no thought to introducing unhuman things, though maybe some unusual concepts or something. Something a bit more creative than direct translations from English or Spanish.

There's a lot in between direct translations from English and Spanish, and nonhuman language-stuff. Just start reading up on obscure, and not so obscure, languages. Inspiration will be found in many places

Because if it's not, you might want to change your pronoun system, which is probably highly confusing, as al the pronouns consist of a VN string, with V=vowel and N=nasal consonant. I think I'd have a hard time disentangling al these pronouns in normal conversation.

I thought so. How many times have you heard "Not "n" for nothing, "m" for mother" lol. For the moment, since I'll only be using it for writing, it can stay as it is. It's a prototype. It all is really.

And if I keep it maybe these extra-terrestrial humans have keen enough ears to tell the difference, or they might be physiologically different enough that it sounds different to our ears. I'm sure I can think of something.

Oh you can think of something, it's just where you want to go with it.

Also, there's nothing wrong with some more irregularity in there. IF that's what you're going for of course.

Absolutely. I've just done some work on some (goes of to look at the term) non-personal pronouns, which turned out not to be as regular as the rest of what I've done. I'll share those here at some point soon.

I like the reduplication for the reflexive. It's funny I think.

I quite liked that too. Nice and simple, and it has it's own logic. Certainly a feature I would like to keep.

Well, have fun!

[ol bofosh]

Just like it would be painstaking work for us to try and figure out what you mean with the letters you posted. If you want people to comment on your conlang, on its content, you'll really have to present it in a way that people can just read it and understand. But you'd only have to do this figuring out which sounds you mean once. After that, you can just go back to your notes and type from there.

I'm working on it! Don't rush me man

I found a simple chart I did for the consonants. I'll get round to sharing it.
The vowels I know what they sound like for me, but I just can't locate them on the chart yet.

All the info I can share on phonology is above. If anyone does want to go through it for whatever reason they have some clues and references. Nothing like IPA but it's the best I can do for the moment *shrugs* If it's not of interest then just skip it. I just wanted to share this with people that would understand it.

How do you keep track of your vocab? If you use eg excel as your dictionary, it doesn't need to be too daunting to find what you meant with a certain word, even if it doesn't have a standard ending. Also, you could work with noun or verb classes, or cases, that you mark on all words, in which case you also get recognisable endings. Just a thought

I've written a list of verbs, perhaps a hundred (guestimating). And I have put some on excel, which I'll carry on doing.

Cases like mundus, mundum, munde, mundi and mundo? (having just looked it up in the Language Construction Kit). The verbs are confusing enough without making the nouns complicated too

Well, I have some references if I want to experiment.

Well, have fun!

I am!

It's a struggle learning all the new terminology (and even more when they use inknown terminology to explain unknown terminology) but I am enjoying the challenge. Very much so

Thanks for your tips and comments so far, it's better getting responses from real people than having to read and reread a lifeless book

[Herr Dunkel]

The verbs are confusing enough without making the nouns complicated too

Do note that English, too, has cases (namely the Possessive, Nominative, Accusative, Dative - mine, I, me, to me; his, he, him, to him)

[ol bofosh]

Ah yes, thanks. The difference in pronouns I get (exept the dative, which is a new one to me). It's when it gets to nouns. I look at the different noun cases in Latin and my brow wrinkles. I look at the possibilities in Finnish and my eyes cross.

For the moment all my possesive pronouns start with "sh-". I've done away with the accusitive. I'll give some thought to the dative.

And here's the sound values for the consonants:

Plosives:
- labials: p, b
- alveolar: t, d
- velar: k, g

Nasal:
- labial: m
- alveolar: n
- velar: ng

Fricatives:
- labiodental: f, v
- dental: th, dh
- alveolar: s, z
- post alveolar: sh, zh
- velar: hh (may be changed to x)
- glottal: h

Approximant:
- labial: w
- alveolar: r (this is a tricky one for me, I’m not sure if it’s the same one I say)
- post alveolar: y

Lateral alveolar: l

Affricative post alveolar: j, jh

It's basically most of the consonants in my accent. Not imaginative, but it works

[Turtlehead]

Do you have any sample texts?

[ol bofosh]

No, all I have is individual words, mainly verbs. I have enough for small sentences but not texts.

Om alahirtel alahith, domon dekiwt. Om alahirt ingish, fiesipanis.
I don't speak alahithian, I am creating it. I speak English, [and] little Spanish.

Sifish sifurt. Dafak dafort, Udak udort.
Water flows. The sky is high, the ground is low.

Sipan, Ij om etheyt, etheyt oranij [and] hhabalid.
In Spain, where I live, there are oranges and wild boars.

I'm fairly near the end of writing a basic list of verbs, next are the nouns.

[Herr Dunkel]

Also, do note that without the accusative, you'd need at least some other way to overtly mark who's who and who's doing what to who.
That either takes noun incorporation into the verb (scary stuff), rigid word order or case marking (take this for example: if 'me' was the only form of the English pronoun, what would happen in the sentence: me bit dog/dog bit me ? Who did what to whom? Did I bite the dog or did it bite me?)

[Astraios]

That is a lie.

Lakota has no case marking at all (less than English), doesn't do noun incorporation unless it's an "expected" compound, and the order of nominal phrases is not fixed at SO.

[Herr Dunkel]

That is a lie.

Lakota has no case marking at all (less than English), doesn't do noun incorporation unless it's an "expected" compound, and the order of nominal phrases is not fixed at SO.

It's not fixed at SO, no, but go and explain to this newbie what else goes on in Lakota, such as topicalisation and other fun stuff

[ol bofosh]

Dog bit me: Onom sinirk. (lit. it bit me, since I have no word for dog yet)

I bit dog: Omon sinirk

Subject and object are combined in a certain order - SO - before the verb. With nouns as objects its SVO: Om sinirk oranij (I bit an orange).

"It bites" is "on sinirt". "the dog is bitten" might be "sinirt [dog]". Or something. It's all experiemental

[Astraios]

It's not fixed at SO, no, but go and explain to this newbie what else goes on in Lakota, such as topicalisation

So you're an expert already?

[Herr Dunkel]

It's not fixed at SO, no, but go and explain to this newbie what else goes on in Lakota, such as topicalisation

So you're an expert already?

No, but I'm no dummy either. I have a copy of "A Grammar of Lakota; The Language of Teton Sioux Indians"

[Astraios]

No, but I'm no dummy either. I have a copy of "A Grammar of Lakota; The Language of Teton Sioux Indians"

Well done. Come back when you can speak the language. Also, topicalization is not what I was talking about.

[Wičháša waŋ theyáȟila kiŋ] [wíŋyaŋ kiŋ] waŋyáŋke.
man=DET | difficult.to.endure<2.ACT>=DIM=DEF | woman=DEF | see
[The woman] saw [the man you love]. ~ [The man you love] saw [the woman].

The above, for example, is perfectly ambiguous, and there's no topicalization or things like that.

[Herr Dunkel]

The above, for example, is perfectly ambiguous, and there's no topicalization or things like that.

If it's ambiguous, then it's flawed. "john cow ate" is an example in English.

[Astraios]

If it's ambiguous, then it's flawed. "john cow ate" is an example in English.

So what point are you trying to make here? That Lakota is a flawed language?

[Herr Dunkel]

If it's ambiguous, then it's flawed. "john cow ate" is an example in English.

So what point are you trying to make here? That Lakota is a flawed language?

No, that the sentence is flawed, and that you randomly chose to pick a fight.
Seriously, should we swamp the newbie with Lakota? Shouldn't we then throw Tlingit at him, and Qwaq'wala, too?

[Astraios]

No, that the sentence is flawed, and that you randomly chose to pick a fight.

What do you mean the sentence is flawed? I don't get it... So it's ambiguous, so what? And I didn't pick a fight, I gave an example of a language where there can be no overt marking of subject vs. object to disprove your point.

Seriously, should we swamp the newbie with Lakota? Shouldn't we then throw Tlingit at him, and Qwaq'wala, too?

You're the one who escalated it into a "swamp" of Lakota. I did nothing more than make a point to show treegod that he doesn't necessarily need anything more than context to mark which is subject and which is object. I apologize to him for your inability to not rise to a perceived challenge.

[Herr Dunkel]

Seriously, should we swamp the newbie with Lakota? Shouldn't we then throw Tlingit at him, and Qwaq'wala, too?

You're the one who escalated it into a "swamp" of Lakota. I did nothing more than make a point to show treegod that he doesn't necessarily need anything more than context to mark which is subject and which is object. I apologize to him for your inability to not rise to a perceived challenge.

He can read about it later down the road.
If he wants examples of ambiguity, he can go to monster raving loonies.

[Astraios]

He can read about it later down the road.

Sure he can, but since you brought it up with your post about needing some way to distinguish subject from object, I thought I'd post about that now. Problem?

If he wants examples of ambiguity, he can go to monster raving loonies.

If that's meant to be an ad hominem, look who's picking fights. If it's not, quoi?

[ol bofosh]

¡Qué bronca! Jejeje

I'm finding out just how varied languages really are, that some lack one thing, and others lack something else, yet they all have their own way of making sense. I'm sure that if the word forms lack disinction between subject and object then there are other ways of doing it.

This is me learning. I now know there is something called Dative, and that is has something to with "to [noun]". Is it used in contrast to an Ablative (another concept I've only read today).

[Herr Dunkel]

If that's meant to be an ad hominem, look who's picking fights. If it's not, quoi?

Monster raving loony = Transitive alignment where A = P