Romanization challenge thread

[Travis B.]

Ama

/p t k kʷ/ ⟨p t k q⟩
/m n/ ⟨m n⟩
/ɸ s h/ ⟨f s h⟩
/w ɭ j/ ⟨w l y⟩

/i e a ɒ ɔ o u/ ⟨i e ä a o ó u⟩

/ɸɒnɒpe mo sijɒɭi naɭi nɔ. nɒkɒni ɸɒnɒpe ta nɒ muɭu mɔ ewɒ mi sijɒɭi tɒpi. uɭai nɒmɒnɒinɒ mɔ, nɒkɒ kɔmasɔ mɔ ɸɒnɒpe aɭi mɒɭɒpɒi na tikaijaɭɔ manɒnɔ, isisɔ. uɭai ɸɒnɒpe mɔ kɒijau, ai mɔ japɒɭe naɭi nɔ. kʷaimɔ muwɒi, naɭi nɔ. nɒmɒnɒinɔ nɒkɒ nɒkɒɭaɭɔ mɔ japɒɭe na tɒkɒɭikaɭimɒi, jau jau. wɒli ijaɭi, na pa sainɒwɔ, ninani imɒ mɔ. uɭai ɸɒnɒpe ta nɒ muɭu mɔ sijɒɭi naɭi nɒ. nɒmɒnɒinɒ ɸɒnɒpe isi mi mɔ sijɒɭisɔ na tanɔmanɒnɔ, nɒkɒ nɒkɒɭaɭɒ mɔ. nɒkɒ mɔ ɸɒnɒpe ta nɒ muɭu sasɔ nɒkɒta mɔ, aɸɒnimaisɔ nɔ mɒɭɒi jɒusimɒnɒi. nɒni mani, ainɒsɔ naɭi nɔ. ɸɒnɒpeni ai mɔ tauwɒi si. sija mɔ muɭu tɒnɒnɒkɒ. sija mɔ imɒ mɒɭɒ sijɒɭi. sija mɔ muɭu ɸuɸɒɭekɒ muɭu./
Fanape mó siyali näli no. Nakani fanape tä na muu mo ewa mi siyali tapi. Uläi namanaina mo, naka komäso mo fanape ali malapai nä tikäiyälo mänano, isiso. Uläi fanape mo kaijäu äi mo yäpale näli no. Qäimo muwai, näli no. Namanaino naka nakalälo mo yäpale nä takalikälimai, yäu yäu. Wali iyäli, nä pä säinawo, ninäni ima mo. Uläi fanape tä na mulu mo siyali näli no. Namanaina fanape isi mi mo siyaliso nä tänomänano, naka nakaläla mo. Naka mo fanape tä na mulu säso nakatä mo, äfanimäiso no malai jausimanai. Nani mäni, äinaso näli no. Fanapeni äi mo täuwai so. Sijä mo mulu tananaka. Sijä mo ima mala siyali. Sijä mo mulu fufaleka mulu.

[Travis B.]

/ʒaˈrɨnə/ ⟨žarənə⟩

/m n ɲ ŋ/ ⟨m n ñ ŋ⟩
/p t k/ ⟨p t k⟩
/s ʃ x/ ⟨s š x⟩
/v z ʒ ɦ/ ⟨v z ž h⟩
/(w) r (j)/ ⟨w r y⟩

/i ɨ~ə u/ ⟨i ə u⟩
/ai~ɛ au~ɔ/ ⟨e o⟩
/a/ ⟨a⟩

Syllables: CV.
The stress: the final syllable if it contains /ai au/, else the penultimate.
Unstressed [ə] is often elided in speech.

/sɛ mɛkɛˈnau xəpitɛˈsiʃi ˈaiŋi saˈxuɦu | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || muˈmɨɦə sɛ ŋuxaˈzɨŋə || mɔxɔˈsuka nɛ sɛˈʃɨŋə muɦəvəˈzau || aˈpatə apaɦaˈsɨtə mɔʃɛˈjaka punəkəˈsɨŋə taˈtɨɦə | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || apəˈɦazə səˈxɨkə || aˈkai ˈsuɦu || aˈɦɨva sixaˈmau || mɔˈsakə sɛ pəsaˈzɨŋə xətəsakɛˈxiki xɔpəˈɦiɦi/
Se mekeno xəpitesiši eŋi saxuhu, se momaxəta peməŋe. Muməhə se ŋuxazəŋə. Moxosuka ne sešəŋə muhəvəzo. Apatə apahasətə mošeyaka punəkəsəŋə tatəhə, se momaxəta peməŋe. Apəhazə səxəkə. Ake suhu. Ahəva sixamo. Mosakə se pəsazəŋə xətəsakexiki xopəhihi.

[mèþru]

žarɇnɇ
<m n ň ŋ>
<p t k>
<s š x>
<v z ž h>
<u r i>
<i ɇ u>
<e o>
<a>
se mekeno xɇpitesiši eŋi saxuhu, se momaxɇta pemɇŋe. mumɇhɇ se ŋuxazɇŋɇ. moxosuka ne sešɇŋɇ muhɇvɇzo. apatɇ apahasɇtɇ mošeiaka punɇkɇsɇŋɇ tatɇhɇ, se momaxɇta pemɇŋe. apɇhazɇ sɇxɇkɇ. ake suhu. ahɇva sixamo. mosakɇ se pɇsazɇŋɇ xɇtɇsakexiki xopɇhihi.
agefaqeg-style:
žarênê
<m n nr ŋ>
<p t k>
<s š x>
<v z ž h>
<u r i>
<i ê u>
<e o>
<a>
se mekeno xêpitesiši eŋi saxuhu, se momaxêta pemêŋe, mumêhê se ŋuxazêŋê, moxosuka ne sešêŋê muhêvêzo, apatê apahasêtê mošeiaka punêkêsêŋê tatêhê, se momaxêta pemêŋe, apêhazê sêxêkê, ake suhu, ahêva sixamo, mosakê se pêsazêŋê xêtêsakexiki xopêhihi,

[Haplogy]

Jarõn:

/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ņ ng
/p t k/ p t k
/s ʃ x/ s ş ch
/v z ʒ ɦ/ v z j h
/(w) r (j)/ u r i

/i ɨ~ə u/ i õ~Ø u
/ai~ɛ au~ɔ/ ae~e ao~o
/a/ a

Se mekenao chpitesişi aengi sachuhu, se momachõta pemngae. Mumõh se nguchazõng. Mochosuka ne seşõng muhvzao. Apat apahasõt moşeiaka punksõng tatõh, se momachõta pemngae. Aphaz schõk. Akae suhu. Ahõva sichamao. Mosak se psazõng chtsakechiki chophihi.
/sɛ mɛkɛˈnau xəpitɛˈsiʃi ˈaiŋi saˈxuɦu | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || muˈmɨɦə sɛ ŋuxaˈzɨŋə || mɔxɔˈsuka nɛ sɛˈʃɨŋə muɦəvəˈzau || aˈpatə apaɦaˈsɨtə mɔʃɛˈjaka punəkəˈsɨŋə taˈtɨɦə | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || apəˈɦazə səˈxɨkə || aˈkai ˈsuɦu || aˈɦɨva sixaˈmau || mɔˈsakə sɛ pəsaˈzɨŋə xətəsakɛˈxiki xɔpəˈɦiɦi/

[Chengjiang]

/ʒaˈrɨnə/ Jarene

/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ny ng
/p t k/ p t k
/s ʃ x/ s sh x
/v z ʒ ɦ/ v z j h
/(w) r (j)/ w r y

/i ɨ~ə u/ i e u
/ai~ɛ au~ɔ/ ai au
/a/ a

Are [ɨ ai au] the stressed allophones of [ə ɛ ɔ]? Why are /w j/ in parentheses?

Syllables: CV.
The stress: the final syllable if it contains /ai au/, else the penultimate.
Unstressed [ə] is often elided in speech.

/sɛ mɛkɛˈnau xəpitɛˈsiʃi ˈaiŋi saˈxuɦu | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || muˈmɨɦə sɛ ŋuxaˈzɨŋə || mɔxɔˈsuka nɛ sɛˈʃɨŋə muɦəvəˈzau || aˈpatə apaɦaˈsɨtə mɔʃɛˈjaka punəkəˈsɨŋə taˈtɨɦə | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || apəˈɦazə səˈxɨkə || aˈkai ˈsuɦu || aˈɦɨva sixaˈmau || mɔˈsakə sɛ pəsaˈzɨŋə xətəsakɛˈxiki xɔpəˈɦiɦi/

Sai maikainau xepitaisishi aingi saxuhu, sai maumaxeta paimengai. Mumehe sai nguxazenge. Mauxausuka nai saishenge muhevezau. Apate apahasete maushaiyaka punekesenge tatehe, sai maumaxeta paimengai. Apehaze sexeke. Akaisuhu. Aheva sixamau. Mausake sai pesazenge xetesakaixiki xaupehihi.

[Chengjiang]

brazi (conlang):

I'm confused. Do you want us to follow the rules you followed in romanizing it, or are you just showing us your own design principles?

Also, it's a pretty tall order for us to make a sample text for you if we don't even have phonotactics to work with.

[Pole, the]

/m n ɲ ŋ/ m n ny ng
/p t k/ p t k
/s ʃ x/ s sh x
/v z ʒ ɦ/ v z j h
/(w) r (j)/ w r y

/i ɨ~ə u/ i e u
/ai~ɛ au~ɔ/ ai au
/a/ a

That's almost the orthography I have been using, with «g c» instead of «ng sh».

Are [ɨ ai au] the stressed allophones of [ə ɛ ɔ]? Why are /w j/ in parentheses?

Yep. [w j] are just epentheses inserted after front and back vowels respectively. (Historically speaking, also after /a/.)

[mèþru]

You decide for yourself if you want to follow the rules.
Here's a randomly generated text to use (not representative of how the language actually looks like):
/kɹo.cɤɸ.la.ʒɯ cɹɛ.mla.βɤ.plɹu.d͡ʒɔl nɛ.θlɹas βɔɸ pβɛ y.ðe ðlʊŋ.ʊz lɛt̪.ʊ ɸβʊ.ju liŋ.eʒ.mu.ju.qɹy a.vβɛ ʃβɤ ɡlɯt͡s.ɹed͡z kjʊ.mɹɔ d͡ʒe.t͡sʊn.aʊ̯ŋ slʊ.nly ɹuŋ.ɛt̪.claʊ̯ʃ.ʃe ɹɤk.ɔl d͡zβe.ɹɯ ʊ la.zβɤ.kjoŋ qɹɛʃ.t̪ɤ.ɹɔθ ɡliŋ.blɛ jaʊ̯l bjø.blɯθ lʊ d̪lɹɯ.qoɸ.d͡ʒɹi βa.t͡ʃoɸ mlɹɤ.clɹy.t͡sɯŋ θɤ slɛ.lyɡ.ʒβy.mɹi.va ɹi hjʊ nlɹaʊ̯.d͡zji.ɡlɹɯ sβu.ɹi t̪aʊ̯t͡s.qlɹɤm plɔ ðø e.d̪e lø qlet͡ʃ.o ʊd͡ʒ.mβɤ a.lɛ ɹu.ʃlɹy cloŋ.kɹɤh.t͡ʃβylh.cjɛŋ qɹi.t̪jɔ nlɹɛk.vaʊ̯d͡ʒ løq.ɯŋ klaɸ.θja nβɛ.ʒlo.mle.sɤʒ.ɹy ɹaŋ.ɔθ.bɹʊ zlo.mø t̪e.t͡slu.sɹaʊ̯h.buq uʒ.ɸlɹa pɹaʊ̯ i.pjy.lɛ pɹʊ βa lɯ lɔd͡z/
"solt and peper it as they plese" (Salt and pepper it [with punctuation] as you please)
Phonotactics:
J=/β, j/
V=vowels
B=everything else
Onsets are optional. These onsets are possible:
B
BJ
Bl
Blɹ
Bɹ
J
l
ɹ
Codas are optional. These codas are possible:
B
ŋ
l
lB
lŋ
ɹ
ɹB
ɹŋ
ɹl
It is extremely rare for a root to not begin with an onset, but such words are among the most important and frequently used words.
V is usually separated from V with few exceptions.

More: show

krocɇflažɨ crèmlawɇplrudžòl nèþlras wòf pwè, yðe ðlùŋùz lètù fwùju, liŋežmujuqry avwè šwɇ glɨtsredz kjùmrò džetsùnåŋ, slùnly ruŋètclåšše rɇkòl, dzwerɨ ù lazwɇkjoŋ qrèštɇròþ gliŋblè, jål bjöblɨþ lù dlrɨqofdžri watšof mlrɇclrytsɨŋ þɇ, slèlygžwymriva ri hjù nlrådzjiglrɨ swuri tåtsqlrɇm, plò, ðö ede lö qletšo ùdžmwɇ alè rušlry cloŋkrɇhtšwylhcjèŋ, qritjò nlrèkvådž löqɨŋ klafþja, nwèžlomlesɇžry raŋòþbrù zlomö tetslusråhbuq užflra prå ipjylè prù wa lɨ lòdz,

[Travis B.]

/χɐˈniːnɨ/

/m n/
/p t ts tʃ k q/
/pʰ tʰ tsʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ/
/b d dz dʒ g/
/s ʃ χ/
/z ʒ ʁ/
/r l/
/ʋ j/

/e ɐ ɨ o/
/iː eː æː ɒː oː uː/

Syllables are (C)V(C). Stress is phonemic. Aspirated consonants only occur in the onsets of stressed and initial syllables. Also, morphologically, unaspirated voiceless, aspirated voiceless, and voiced consonants morphologically alternate with each other - but not in a predictable fashion, as some consonants will always be voiceless or even specifically unaspirated voiceless in a lexicalized fashion.

/nɨleχˈχɒːjɨtːɐk neː ˈjɐje ˈliːlʒɨt χɒːjˈtʰelɐ χɐ χɐˈniːnɨ χɐ lejˈʋo ˈliːrnɨ ˈliːmʒɐ sɨdɐsˈsoːtːɐk neː mɐl ɨtˈrɒːχ χɒːlnɨkˈkʰuː sɨtːɐχːɒːjɐtˈtʰuːk neː ɐm χɐˈniːnɐ/

[Chengjiang]

You decide for yourself if you want to follow the rules.

OK. I'll try following them just for kicks, then.

brazi (conlang):
/p b t̪ d̪ c k ɡ q/ p b t d c k g q
/m n ŋ/ m n ŋ
/ɸ β v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ h/ f w v þ ð s z x j h
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ ts dz tx dj
/ɹ j l/ r y l
/i y ɯ u ʊ e ø ɤ o ɛ ɔ a aʊ/ i ü ï u ụ e ö ë o ẹ ọ a å

• The speakers often trade with people speaking closely related languages that have /r/ and contrast it with /ɹ/, so brazi has a letter for that sound. Include it in your romanisation. ř
• /aʊ/ must have a single letter. The affricates must be two letters each. All other phonemes are limited to one letter.

I'm not completely happy with how the vowels turned out, but I'm not aware of any natlang even attempting to represent this many vowel qualities in the Roman alphabet with one letter each. While I know some natlangs extend the Roman alphabet with IPA letters (e.g. <ɛ ɔ> in some African languages), I don't think anything takes it quite this far and I'd have to resort to something else for the diphthong anyway. Also, having that much of it just be extensions from the IPA would kind of defeat the purpose.

/kɹo.cɤɸ.la.ʒɯ cɹɛ.mla.βɤ.plɹu.d͡ʒɔl nɛ.θlɹas βɔɸ pβɛ y.ðe ðlʊŋ.ʊz lɛt̪.ʊ ɸβʊ.ju liŋ.eʒ.mu.ju.qɹy a.vβɛ ʃβɤ ɡlɯt͡s.ɹed͡z kjʊ.mɹɔ d͡ʒe.t͡sʊn.aʊ̯ŋ slʊ.nly ɹuŋ.ɛt̪.claʊ̯ʃ.ʃe ɹɤk.ɔl d͡zβe.ɹɯ ʊ la.zβɤ.kjoŋ qɹɛʃ.t̪ɤ.ɹɔθ ɡliŋ.blɛ jaʊ̯l bjø.blɯθ lʊ d̪lɹɯ.qoɸ.d͡ʒɹi βa.t͡ʃoɸ mlɹɤ.clɹy.t͡sɯŋ θɤ slɛ.lyɡ.ʒβy.mɹi.va ɹi hjʊ nlɹaʊ̯.d͡zji.ɡlɹɯ sβu.ɹi t̪aʊ̯t͡s.qlɹɤm plɔ ðø e.d̪e lø qlet͡ʃ.o ʊd͡ʒ.mβɤ a.lɛ ɹu.ʃlɹy cloŋ.kɹɤh.t͡ʃβylh.cjɛŋ qɹi.t̪jɔ nlɹɛk.vaʊ̯d͡ʒ løq.ɯŋ klaɸ.θja nβɛ.ʒlo.mle.sɤʒ.ɹy ɹaŋ.ɔθ.bɹʊ zlo.mø t̪e.t͡slu.sɹaʊ̯h.buq uʒ.ɸlɹa pɹaʊ̯ i.pjy.lɛ pɹʊ βa lɯ lɔd͡z/

krocëflajï crẹmlawëplrudjọl nẹþlras wọf pwẹ üðe ðlụŋụz lẹtụ fwụyu liŋejmuyuqrü avwẹ xwë glïtsredz kyụmrọ djetsụnåŋ slụnlü ruŋẹtclåxxe rëkọl dzwerï u lazwëkyoŋ qrẹxtë rọþ gliŋblẹ yål byöblïþ lụ dlrïqofdjri watxof mlrëclrütsïŋ þë slẹlügjwümriva ri hyụ nlrådzyiglrï swuri tåtsqlrëm plọ ðö ede lö qletxo ụdjmwë alẹ ruxlrü cloŋkrëhtxwülhcyẹŋ qrityọ nlrẹkvådj löqïŋ klafþya nwẹjlomlesëjrü raŋọþbrụ zlomö tetslusråhbuq ujflra prå ipyülẹ prụ wa lï lọdz

[Travis B.]

You decide for yourself if you want to follow the rules.

Languages tend to operate certain ways crosslinguistically for a reason, unless one has decided to create an alien-lang. But most people who create alien-langs have just decided to do arbitrary stupid shit because they have decided that "oh because my language is spoken by aliens I have no need for following an underlying internal logic".

Frankly, mèþru's list of sound changes for lenition is utter bollocks, to borrow a word from the British. Lenition simply does not behave that way. Rather it incorporates clear distinct phonological processes, varying in application from language to language, such as frication (e.g. t > θ, ɡ > ɣ), voicing (e.g. t > d, s > z), deaffrication (e.g. ts > s, dʒ > ʒ), debuccalization (e.g. s > h, ɡ > ɦ), and like. Note that for most of these aside from debuccalization, POA changes do not occur, except that often p > f and b > v. Note that lenition normally does not involve changes like s > ð, unlike as suggested by mèþru - and it does not matter whether the result of lenition does not match up with an existing phoneme (as mèþru justified the s > ð change by); once lenition becomes phonemicized, the result will likely be a new phoneme or otherwise an allophone of another phoneme.

[Chengjiang]

/χɐˈniːnɨ/ Ȟaniini

Here's a somewhat Lakota-based Roman orthography.

/m n/ m n
/p t ts tʃ k q/ p t c č k q
/pʰ tʰ tsʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ/ ph th ch čh kh qh
/b d dz dʒ g/ b d dz dž g
/s ʃ χ/ s š ȟ
/z ʒ ʁ/ z ž ǧ
/r l/ r l
/ʋ j/ w y

/e ɐ ɨ o/ e a i o
/iː eː æː ɒː oː uː/ ii ee ae aa oo uu

Also, morphologically, unaspirated voiceless, aspirated voiceless, and voiced consonants morphologically alternate with each other - but not in a predictable fashion, as some consonants will always be voiceless or even specifically unaspirated voiceless in a lexicalized fashion.

That sounds infuriating. In fact it sounds infuriatingly like rendaku.

Is stress contrastive? If it is, add an acute accent to stressed syllables that occur outside the default position, whatever that is.

/nɨleχˈχɒːjɨtːɐk neː ˈjɐje ˈliːlʒɨt χɒːjˈtʰelɐ χɐ χɐˈniːnɨ χɐ lejˈʋo ˈliːrnɨ ˈliːmʒɐ sɨdɐsˈsoːtːɐk neː mɐl ɨtˈrɒːχ χɒːlnɨkˈkʰuː sɨtːɐχːɒːjɐtˈtuːk neː ɐm χɐˈniːnɐ/

nileȟȟaayittak nee yaye liilžit ȟaaythela ȟa ȟaniini ȟa leywo liirni liimža sidassoottak nee mal itraaȟ ȟaalnikkhuu sittaȟȟaayattuuk nee am ȟaniina

[mèþru]

xèNinɨ
<m n>
<p t ts tš k q>
<ph th tsh tšh kh qh>
<b d dz dž g>
<s š x>
<z ž ŕ>
<r l>
<v j>
<ẹ è ɨ ọ>
<i e a ò o u>
Stress is indicated by capitalisation of the first sound of a syllable.
nɨlẹxXòjɨttèk ne Jèjẹ Lilžɨt xòjTHẹlè xè xèNinɨ xè lẹjVọ Lirnɨ Limžè sɨdèsSottèk ne mèl ɨtRòx xòlNẹkku sɨttèxxòjètTuk ne èm xèNinè
agefaqeg-style romanisation:
<m n>
<b d dz dž g qq>
<p t ts tš k q>
<bb dd dzdz dždž gg>
<s š qh>
<z ž qqh>
<ŕ l>
<w j>
<e ê ɨ o>
<ii ee èè aoao oo uu>
Stress is indicated by <^>
nɨleqh^qhaoaojɨddêg nee ^jêje ^liilžɨd qhaoaoj^telê qhê qhê^niinɨ qhê lej^wo ^liiŕnɨ ^liimžê sɨddês^sooddêg nee mêl ɨd^ŕaoaoqh qhaoaol^negguu sɨddêqhqhaoaojêd^duug nee êm qhê^niinê

[Travis B.]

Also, morphologically, unaspirated voiceless, aspirated voiceless, and voiced consonants morphologically alternate with each other - but not in a predictable fashion, as some consonants will always be voiceless or even specifically unaspirated voiceless in a lexicalized fashion.

That sounds infuriating. In fact it sounds infuriatingly like rendaku.

Specifically it is that there was voicing of unstressed short pulmonic obstruents intervocalically, after nasals, and between a vowel and a semivowel historically, and aspiration of pulmonic obstruents initially and in onsets of stressed syllables - but historical geminates never voiced despite later being shortened, and historical ejectives never voiced or became aspirated despite later being deglottalized. At the same time, many conditioning vowels that caused voicing were later elided. The effect of all this is to make voicing and aspiration phonemic, but with frequent alternations that only make sense when looking at the protolanguage.

Is stress contrastive? If it is, add an acute accent to stressed syllables that occur outside the default position, whatever that is.

Stress is contrastive, and there is no default stress position; stress position is a result of allophonic syllable-weight conditioned criteria in earlier stages of the language, but syllable weight in many cases changed due to sound change which did not update the stress position (particularly vowel elision resulting in compensatory lengthening of preceding vowels on one hand and merger of syllables of different weights in other cases), resulting in stress position becoming phonemic.

[mèþru]

You decide for yourself if you want to follow the rules.

Languages tend to operate certain ways crosslinguistically for a reason, unless one has decided to create an alien-lang. But most people who create alien-langs have just decided to do arbitrary stupid shit because they have decided that "oh because my language is spoken by aliens I have no need for following an underlying internal logic".

Frankly, mèþru's list of sound changes for lenition is utter bollocks, to borrow a word from the British. Lenition simply does not behave that way. Rather it incorporates clear distinct phonological processes, varying in application from language to language, such as frication (e.g. t > θ, ɡ > ɣ), voicing (e.g. t > d, s > z), deaffrication (e.g. ts > s, dʒ > ʒ), debuccalization (e.g. s > h, ɡ > ɦ), and like. Note that for most of these aside from debuccalization, POA changes do not occur, except that often p > f and b > v. Note that lenition normally does not involve changes like s > ð, unlike as suggested by mèþru - and it does not matter whether the result of lenition does not match up with an existing phoneme (as mèþru justified the s > ð change by); once lenition becomes phonemicized, the result will likely be a new phoneme or otherwise an allophone of another phoneme.

I think you meant to post this on the soft mutation thread. I did not mention sound change anywhere on this thread. All I know about lenition is that a lenited sound is always more sonorous than its fortified relative. If there are any other conditions, I admit my ignorance. The only languages I work on that are for aliens use colors instead of sounds. I thank you for informing me about your opinions. However, I am annoyed at you because of your unnecessarily rude language and the fact that you quoted me out of context. The rules I were talking about were option challenges that make romanising my language harder.

[Travis B.]

You decide for yourself if you want to follow the rules.

Languages tend to operate certain ways crosslinguistically for a reason, unless one has decided to create an alien-lang. But most people who create alien-langs have just decided to do arbitrary stupid shit because they have decided that "oh because my language is spoken by aliens I have no need for following an underlying internal logic".

Frankly, mèþru's list of sound changes for lenition is utter bollocks, to borrow a word from the British. Lenition simply does not behave that way. Rather it incorporates clear distinct phonological processes, varying in application from language to language, such as frication (e.g. t > θ, ɡ > ɣ), voicing (e.g. t > d, s > z), deaffrication (e.g. ts > s, dʒ > ʒ), debuccalization (e.g. s > h, ɡ > ɦ), and like. Note that for most of these aside from debuccalization, POA changes do not occur, except that often p > f and b > v. Note that lenition normally does not involve changes like s > ð, unlike as suggested by mèþru - and it does not matter whether the result of lenition does not match up with an existing phoneme (as mèþru justified the s > ð change by); once lenition becomes phonemicized, the result will likely be a new phoneme or otherwise an allophone of another phoneme.

I think you either meant to post this on the soft mutation thread or were confused. I did not mention sound change anywhere on this thread. All I know about lenition is that a lenited sound is always more sonorous than its fortified relative. If there are any other conditions, I admit my ignorance. The only languages I work on that are for aliens use colors instead of sounds. I thank you for informing me about your opinions. However, I am annoyed at you because of your unnecessarily rude language and the fact that you quoted me out of context. The rules I were talking about were option challenges that make romanising my language harder.

I was assuming that they were quoting what you said in the other thread.

[Chengjiang]

I was assuming that they were quoting what you said in the other thread.

I wasn't. I hadn't the foggiest idea about the other thread. I was replying to the statement that I didn't need to follow the rules that they themself followed with transcribing this conlang.

[Travis B.]

I was assuming that they were quoting what you said in the other thread.

I wasn't. I hadn't the foggiest idea about the other thread. I was replying to the statement that I didn't need to follow the rules that they themself followed with transcribing this conlang.

As I realized after the fact; I had missed that mèþru had used very similar words in two entirely different contexts, and had not read those words by him here, so I assumed that they were a reference to the other thread.

[----]

/m n/ - m n
/p t ts tʃ k q/ - p t tz ch c/qu c̄ (qu before <i e ē>)
/pʰ tʰ tsʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ/ - p' t' ts' ch' c'/qu' c̄'
/b d dz dʒ g/ - b d dz ll g
/s ʃ χ/ - s x j
/z ʒ ʁ/ - z ȳ ḡ
/r l/ - r l
/ʋ j/ - v y

/e ɐ ɨ o/ - e a ü u
/iː eː æː ɒː oː uː/ - i ē ā o ō ū

Syllables are (C)V(C). Stress is phonemic. Aspirated consonants only occur in the onsets of stressed and initial syllables. Also, morphologically, unaspirated voiceless, aspirated voiceless, and voiced consonants morphologically alternate with each other - but not in a predictable fashion, as some consonants will always be voiceless or even specifically unaspirated voiceless in a lexicalized fashion.

/nɨleχˈχɒːjɨtːɐk neː ˈjɐje ˈliːlʒɨt χɒːjˈtʰelɐ χɐ χɐˈniːnɨ χɐ lejˈʋo ˈliːrnɨ ˈliːmʒɐ sɨdɐsˈsoːtːɐk neː mɐl ɨtˈrɒːχ χɒːlnɨkˈkʰuː sɨtːɐχːɒːjɐtˈtʰuːk neː ɐm χɐˈniːnɐ/
nülejjoyüttac nē yaye lilȳüt joyt'ela ja janinü ja leyvu lirnü limȳa südassōttac nē mal ütraj jalnücc'ū süttajoyatt'ūc nē am ja nina.

[Chengjiang]

Specifically it is that there was voicing of unstressed short pulmonic obstruents intervocalically, after nasals, and between a vowel and a semivowel historically, and aspiration of pulmonic obstruents initially and in onsets of stressed syllables - but historical geminates never voiced despite later being shortened, and historical ejectives never voiced or became aspirated despite later being deglottalized. At the same time, many conditioning vowels that caused voicing were later elided. The effect of all this is to make voicing and aspiration phonemic, but with frequent alternations that only make sense when looking at the protolanguage.

I like it.

[opipik]

Wow. Cannot. Breath.
I found these funny:
/pɒɭ tɒɭ kɒɭ mɒɭ ɸɒɭ kɒn mɒn ɸɒn ɒi/
<pl tl kl ml fl kn mn fn ei>

See here.

/e ɒi/
<v e>
Are there languages that do that?

/ɒi/ is often pronounced [ɛi].

[mèþru]

To opipik: I was referring to your romanisation, not the language. I found the eliding of /ɒ/ funny, as well as /e ɒi/ becoming <v e>. To me, the first is kind of pointless. Why should /e/ become <v>? That implies a /u/ or /y/-like sound. I usually write diphthong as I write their components.
To Chengjiang: That is really messy! ☺ It took me a long time to find a romanisation that suited me. What do you think of my romanisation?
<p b t d ť k g q>
<m n ŋ>
<f w v þ ð s z š ž h>
<ts dz tš dž>
<r j l>
<i y ɨ u ù e ö ɇ o è ò a å>
The extra rhotic is <ŕ>
krocɇflažɨ crèmlawɇplrudžòl nèþlras wòf pwè, yðe ðlùŋùz lètù fwùju, liŋežmujuqry avwè šwɇ glɨtsredz kjùmrò džetsùnåŋ, slùnly ruŋètclåšše rɇkòl, dzwerɨ ù lazwɇkjoŋ qrèštɇròþ gliŋblè, jål bjöblɨþ lù dlrɨqofdžri watšof mlrɇclrytsɨŋ þɇ, slèlygžwymriva ri hjù nlrådzjiglrɨ swuri tåtsqlrɇm, plò, ðö ede lö qletšo ùdžmwɇ alè rušlry cloŋkrɇhtšwylhcjèŋ, qritjò nlrèkvådž löqɨŋ klafþja, nwèžlomlesɇžry raŋòþbrù zlomö tetslusråhbuq užflra prå ipjylè prù wa lɨ lòdz,

[Nortaneous]

/p t k kʷ/ <p t k q>
/m n/ <m n>
/ɸ s h/ <f s h>
/w ɭ j/ <w l y>

/i e a ɒ ɔ o u/ <i e a 0 v o u>
/ɒi ɒu/ <ei ou>

/ɸɒnɒpe mo sijɒɭi naɭi nɔ. nɒkɒni ɸɒnɒpe ta nɒ muɭu mɔ ewɒ mi sijɒɭi tɒpi. uɭai nɒmɒnɒinɒ mɔ, nɒkɒ kɔmasɔ mɔ ɸɒnɒpe aɭi mɒɭɒpɒi na tikaijaɭɔ manɒnɔ, isisɔ. uɭai ɸɒnɒpe mɔ kɒijau, ai mɔ japɒɭe naɭi nɔ. kʷaimɔ muwɒi, naɭi nɔ. nɒmɒnɒinɔ nɒkɒ nɒkɒɭaɭɔ mɔ japɒɭe na tɒkɒɭikaɭimɒi, jau jau. wɒli ijaɭi, na pa sainɒwɔ, ninani imɒ mɔ. uɭai ɸɒnɒpe ta nɒ muɭu mɔ sijɒɭi naɭi nɒ. nɒmɒnɒinɒ ɸɒnɒpe isi mi mɔ sijɒɭisɔ na tanɔmanɒnɔ, nɒkɒ nɒkɒɭaɭɒ mɔ. nɒkɒ mɔ ɸɒnɒpe ta nɒ muɭu sasɔ nɒkɒta mɔ, aɸɒnimaisɔ nɔ mɒɭɒi jɒusimɒnɒi. nɒni mani, ainɒsɔ naɭi nɔ. ɸɒnɒpeni ai mɔ tauwɒi si. sija mɔ muɭu tɒnɒnɒkɒ. sija mɔ imɒ mɒɭɒ sijɒɭi. sija mɔ muɭu ɸuɸɒɭekɒ muɭu./

Fnpe mo siyli nali nv. Nkni fnpe ta n mulu mv ew mi siyli tpi. Ulai nmnein mv, nk kvmasv mv fnpe ali mlpei na tikaiyalo mannv, isisv. Ulai fnpe mv keiyau, ai mv yaple nali nv. Qaimv muwei, nali nv. Nmneinv nk nklalv mv yaple na tklikalimei, yau yau. Wli iyali, na pa sainwv, ninani im mv. Ulai fnpe ta n mulu mv siyli nali nv. Nmnein fnpe isi mi mv siylisv na tamvmannv, nk nklal mv. Nk mv fnpe ta n mulu sasv nkta mv, afnimaisv nv mlei yousimnei. Nni mani, ainsv nali nv. Fnpeni ai mv tauwei si. Siya mv mulu tnnk. Sia mv im ml siyli. Siya mv mulu fuflek mulu.

----

/m n/ <m n>
/p t ts tʃ k q/ <p t c j k q>
/pʰ tʰ tsʰ tʃʰ kʰ qʰ/ <ph th ch jh kh qh>
/b d dz dʒ g/ <b d dz dj g>
/s ʃ χ/ <s sh h>
/z ʒ ʁ/ <z zh gh>
/r l/ <r l>
/ʋ j/ <v y>

/e ɐ ɨ o/ <e u/a# i o>
/iː eː æː ɒː oː uː/ <ee ei a/aa# au oa oo>

/nɨleχˈχɒːjɨtːɐk neː ˈjɐje ˈliːlʒɨt χɒːjˈtʰelɐ χɐ χɐˈniːnɨ χɐ lejˈʋo ˈliːrnɨ ˈliːmʒɐ sɨdɐsˈsoːtːɐk neː mɐl ɨtˈrɒːχ χɒːlnɨkˈkʰuː sɨtːɐχːɒːjɐtˈtʰuːk neː ɐm χɐˈniːnɐ/
Nilehháuyettuk nei yúye léelzhit hauytéla ha hunéeni ha leyvó léerni léemzha sidussóattuk nei mul itráuh haulnikkhóo sittuhhauyatthóok nei um hunéena.

----

/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ g>
/p t k/ <p t k>
/s ʃ x/ <s c x>
/v z ʒ ɦ/ <v z j h>
/(w) r (j)/ <(w) r (y)>

/i ɨ~ə u/ <i 0 u>
/ai~ɛ au~ɔ/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

Syllables: CV.
The stress: the final syllable if it contains /ai au/, else the penultimate.
Unstressed [ə] is often elided in speech.

/sɛ mɛkɛˈnau xəpitɛˈsiʃi ˈaiŋi saˈxuɦu | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || muˈmɨɦə sɛ ŋuxaˈzɨŋə || mɔxɔˈsuka nɛ sɛˈʃɨŋə muɦəvəˈzau || aˈpatə apaɦaˈsɨtə mɔʃɛˈjaka punəkəˈsɨŋə taˈtɨɦə | sɛ mɔmaˈxɨta pɛməˈŋai || apəˈɦazə səˈxɨkə || aˈkai ˈsuɦu || aˈɦɨva sixaˈmau || mɔˈsakə sɛ pəsaˈzɨŋə xətəsakɛˈxiki xɔpəˈɦiɦi/
Se mekeno xpitesici egi saxuhu, se momaxta pemge. Mumh se guxazg. Moxosuka ne secg muhvzo. Apat apahast moceyaka punksg tath, se momaxta pemge. Aphaz sxk. Ake suhu. Ahva sixamo. Mosak se psazg xtsakexiki xophihi.

----

/p b t̪ d̪ c k ɡ q/ <p b t d ch k g q>
/m n ŋ/ <m n nh>
/ɸ β v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ h/ <f v vh th dh s z c j h>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <ts dz tj dj>
/ɹ j l/ <r (rh) y l>
/i y ɯ u ʊ e ø ɤ o ɛ ɔ a aʊ/ <i ü ï u ù e ö ë o è ò a å>

/kɹo.cɤɸ.la.ʒɯ cɹɛ.mla.βɤ.plɹu.d͡ʒɔl nɛ.θlɹas βɔɸ pβɛ y.ðe ðlʊŋ.ʊz lɛt̪.ʊ ɸβʊ.ju liŋ.eʒ.mu.ju.qɹy a.vβɛ ʃβɤ ɡlɯt͡s.ɹed͡z kjʊ.mɹɔ d͡ʒe.t͡sʊn.aʊ̯ŋ slʊ.nly ɹuŋ.ɛt̪.claʊ̯ʃ.ʃe ɹɤk.ɔl d͡zβe.ɹɯ ʊ la.zβɤ.kjoŋ/
krochöflajï chrèmlavëplrudjòl nèthlras vòf pvè üdhe dhlùnhùz lètù fvùyu linhezhmuyuqrü avhvè shvë glïtsredz kyùmrò djetsùnånh slùnlü runhètchlåsshe rëkòl dzverï ù lazvëkyonh

[Nortaneous]

Hawaiian:

ma me mi mo mu <ã m ɯ õ ɱ>
na ne ni no nu <n ɲ ñ ƞ ŋ>
pa pe pi po pu <p d ø b h>
ka ke ki ko ku <k t s g q>
ʔa ʔe ʔi ʔo ʔu <x ç j c ɵ>
ha he hi ho hu <ƨ з ч ƽ ƅ>
wa we wi wo wu <w f y v ʍ>
la le li lo lu <l ꞁ z r ł>
a e i o u <a e i o u>

C k C:ꞁr Ƨwij k c:ꞁr mqaƅɲ a k bç ãoz o k pe õq c Ƨwij, m lil wꞁ ƞ: kч e c:ꞁr ja ɲi ia c:ꞁr, ƞ k ma, xcꞁ ŋi k bç c:ꞁr Ƨwij i t:ia ãu l:.

[mèþru]

"Your conlang," Hawaiian, has problems. These can't be solved with changing the romanisation. The problem is the syllable structure. Keep the old orthography, but add CVC and/or VC syllables and generate a new lexicon.