Romanization challenge thread

[mèþru]

In similar vein, the Mohawk language (included borrowed sounds /p/ and /m/):
Ganyùh̄geihah̄ /ɡa.njʌ̃ʔˈɡe˦.haʔ/
/p d ɡ ʔ/ <p d g h̄>
/m n/ <m n>
/r/ <r>
/s h/ <s h>
/d͡ʒ/ <j>
/j w/ <y w>
/l/ <l>
/i ũ e ʌ̃ o ä/ <ee u e ù o a>
Short-high tone is written with a following <i>.
Long-rising tone is written with following <ii>.
Long-falling tone is written with following <ä>.

[Frislander]

In similar vein, the Mohawk language (included borrowed sounds /p/ and /m/):
Ganyùh̄geihah̄ /ɡa.njʌ̃ʔˈɡe˦.haʔ/
/p d ɡ ʔ/ <p d g h̄>
/m n/ <m n>
/r/ <r>
/s h/ <s h>
/d͡ʒ/ <j>
/j w/ <y w>
/l/ <l>
/i ũ e ʌ̃ o ä/ <ee u e ù o a>
Short-high tone is written with a following <i>.
Long-rising tone is written with following <ii>.
Long-falling tone is written with following <ä>.

Can I just ask what precedent you have for using i to represent high tone?

[mèþru]

There is none, as far as I know. The precedent is probably some Algonquian language in universe.

[Frislander]

Alternative proposal

/p t k ʔ/ <p t k q>
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ h/ <z s x h>
/iː i oː o aː a/ <ii i oo o aa a>
/iː˦ i˦ oː˦ o˦ aː˦ a˦/ <íí í óó ó áá á>

/hi˧.ta˧.ni˧/
/hi˧.ʔi˦/
/ho˧.θam˦/
/ho˧.ʃa˧.ta˦/
/ʔan˦.ti˧/
/mo˦.ʔi˧/
/miː˦.hi˧/
/θiː˦.po˧/
/ʃoː˦.pih˧/
/no˧.ma˦/
/hi˦.ʃi˧/
/na˧.pi˧/
/hi˦.si˧.ka˦/
/ho˧.θi˧/
/ʃi˦.ʃom˦/
/ho˦.han˧/
/ʔiː˦.si˦/
/ma˧.noːn˦/
/hi˧.pi˦/
/ʔiː˧.noː˦.pi˧/
/ho˧.ʔi˦/
/ho˦.ʔi˧/
hitani
hiqí
hozám
hoxatá
qánti
móqi
mííhi
zíípo
xoopíh
nomá
híxi
napi
hísiká
hozi
xíxóm
hohán
qíísí
manóón
hiipí
qinóópi
hoqí
hóqi

[mèþru]

Extremely non-English like

[Frislander]

Extremely non-English like

Well yes for the treatment of the fricatives, but I point to Menominee for my precedent for the glottal stop.

[Frislander]

Sorry if it seems like I'm spamming romanisations, but I have another proposal more English-like.

/p t k ʔ/ <p t k q>
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ h/ <th s sh h>
/iː i oː o aː a/ <ee i ou o ar a>
/iː˦ i˦ oː˦ o˦ aː˦ a˦/ <éé í óú ó ár á>

/hi˧.ta˧.ni˧/
/hi˧.ʔi˦/
/ho˧.θam˦/
/ho˧.ʃa˧.ta˦/
/ʔan˦.ti˧/
/mo˦.ʔi˧/
/miː˦.hi˧/
/θiː˦.po˧/
/ʃoː˦.pih˧/
/no˧.ma˦/
/hi˦.ʃi˧/
/na˧.pi˧/
/hi˦.si˧.ka˦/
/ho˧.θi˧/
/ʃi˦.ʃom˦/
/ho˧.han˦/
/ʔiː˦.si˦/
/ma˧.noːn˦/
/hi˧.pi˦/
/ʔi˧.noː˦.pi˧/
/ho˧.ʔi˦/
/ho˦.ʔi˧/

hitani
hiqí
hothám
hoshatá
qánti
móqi
mééhi
théépo
shoupíh
nomá
híshi
napi
hísiká
hothi
shíshóm
hohán
qéésí
manóún
hipí
qinóúpi
hoqí
hóqi

[mèþru]

Menominee seems.to use a modern romanisation.

[Nortaneous]

methru there is information on early englishoid algonquian orthographies on even wikipedia and i do not think there are any at all that use extra vowel letters to write tone

[mèþru]

Can you send me links? The time should be about 1784 and earlier. The only English made early orthography I could find is the orthography of the Massachusett (or Wampanoag) language. The thing is that I want something that monolingual English speakers could easily learn and reflect the tendency to ignore diacritics. The idea I am using is to avoid diacritics if there is any other choice, including ridiculous things that can still work (like <i> for high tone).

[----]

if you want something that's natural to native english speakers then just don't indicate pitch accent in the orthography at all.

[Frislander]

if you want something that's natural to native english speakers then just don't indicate pitch accent in the orthography at all.

Yes, I was just thinking that: tone may be contrastive in Bantu languages but most of the orthographies don't distinguish it. A similar thing is found with Japanese romanisations, which (in the vast majority of cases) don't indicate accent.

[mèþru]

That is the most natural for Englsih speakers, but the orthography is simultaneously supposed to be practical for those that use it. Therefore the convention of using <i>, a high frequency vowel, for high tone emerges as a compromise.

[mèþru]

Late 18th century Cherokee (Zalagi):
/tʰ d kʰ ɡ ʔ/ <t d k g h̄>
/m n>
/s h/ <s h>
/dz dɮ/ <z dl> (/dɮ/ is usually pronounced as /dl/ or /tl/, but sometimes pronounced as an actual affricate)
/j ɰ/ <y w>
Not sure what sound is used by Cherokee /a aː/, as several sites insist on different pronunciations. /ə̃/ seems to be realised as [ʌ̃] in Oklahoman Cherokee, so I use the same letter as in Iroquois.
/i iː u uː e eː ə̃ ə̃ː o oː a aː ai/ <iy iiy u uu e ee ù ùù o oo a aa ay>
Nothing distinguishes <y> as /j/ from part of /i iː ai/.
Cherokee pitch accent is mostly non-phonemic, so it is ignored.
The Sequoyah syllabary still gets invented and becomes popular as a secondary orthography in western North Carolina and the Commonwealth of Ohio.

[Frislander]

That is the most natural for Englsih speakers, but the orthography is simultaneously supposed to be practical for those that use it. Therefore the convention of using <i>, a high frequency vowel, for high tone emerges as a compromise.

But then you have Cherokee, where tone is most definitely distinctive, but the syllabary does not mark it at all. Also research has shown that Cheyenne speakers do not need the tone marks to read fluently.

[mèþru]

I just did a romanisation for Cherokee. one of the sites I used (forget which, I will post them later) said that tone is only contrastive for a handful of words, which explains why the syllabary doesn't mark it. I don't know about Cheyenne. Some people can read pinyin without tone (mainly by assuming the word is a basic one).

[Whimemsz]

It's generally not too hard for native or fluent speakers to read and write in a system that doesn't mark all the actual phonemic contrasts of the language. Just like Arabic/Hebrew/etc. can be written with minimal vowel indications (less so for Modern Hebrew). Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics in theory can mark preaspiration/fortis consonants and vowel length, which are both contrastive, but in practice many if not most native speakers omit those when writing.

If you're trying to come up with a Latin orthography for Indian languages for the late 1700s, the answer is that there would not be a uniform orthography or anything close. English-speaker attempts at recording Indian languages in that period are incredibly inexact and inconsistent, even within the work of a single writer. This was true up until the early 1900s. You'd probably be better served having a working orthography you use for actually recording the language (similar to Frislander's versions), plus a random, ad-hoc hodgepodge of inaccurate English-based schemes that people within-universe can use to record it. That way you can still mark the actual forms of the words (for presenting them here and keeping track of them for yourself), while maintaining the realism of English speakers sucking at developing a consistent orthography at the time, let alone distinguishing things like tone.

[mèþru]

A semi-consistent orthograpy for Massachusetts was formed. The basis is that the government of the Ohio (a fictional government over most of the Northwest Territory) asks Englishmen to make an orthography for some Algonquian language (probably Munsee). Orthographies based on that are subsequently made for other languages on the request of Ohio and the Iroquois Confederacy.

[Whimemsz]

It was... vaguely consistent to a certain extent. But not in the "standardized orthography" sense, let alone a phonemic orthography. (See here). English writing of Massachusett and Narragansett also failed to consistently mark important phonemic distinctions, including vowel nasalization and (for Massachusett) /tʲ/. What you've come up with is a phonemic writing system that includes numerous contrasts English speakers almost certainly would not have noticed or thought to write down consistently (glottal stop, tone, vowel length). They would also have distinguished in writing what are actually allophonic contrasts in the language (e.g., Mohawk has a lot more surface consonants than that, many of which are the equivalents of English phonemes!) If you actually look at how English speakers transcribed Indian languages at the time ... it's just nothing close to the situation you're envisioning.

[opipik]

Rumu

/p t̪ k/
/m n̪/
/ɾ̪/
/(s̪) h/
/w j/

/i e ɛ ɑ ɔ o u/

/ɑ ɑ́ ɑ̂ ɑ̌ ɑ᷈/


/ɛn̪ɛ᷈ kéi pékɑ̂ ut̪ímɑ̂pɔ | n̪ɑmɑ᷈i | ɔt̪ɔpɑ᷈e | pɛmɔ́ | hó | kɛí ɾ̪ɛíkɑ̂ hó | kɛí hókɑ̂ hó pɔt̪ɔímɔ́ || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛ́ikɑ̂ úmɔ́ || ûn̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔwɑt̪í t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ wín̪û mɔí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é kɔn̪ikɔn̪í pɑt̪ên̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ ú || ûn̪ɑn̪é | kɛí hɑwɑ̂ t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ weɑ᷈ mɔi || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é kɛí pɔ ɑmɑ᷈ keí || kén̪ɑn̪é t̪ɔkɔt̪imɑ́ pɛkɛ᷈ t̪ɛ jɑí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é pɔi᷈ || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é piki᷈n̪ɑn̪é kɛí pɔ ɑmɑ᷈ peí || pén̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ hókɑ̂ ú || hón̪ɑn̪é | kɔɾ̪ɛɾ̪ín̪ɑn̪é | hit̪ɛ̂i mɑ́in̪ɑ | kɛ́i ú ɑmɑ᷈ uɾ̪ɑ́i || kɛ́i hó t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ ɾ̪ɛí || ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛiɾ̪ɑ́kɑ ûnɑn̪é we᷈ t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ jɛ́i || jɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é | kɛ́i iɾ̪ín̪ɑn̪é | hɔwɑ᷈ n̪ɑ̂ mɑ̂kɑɾ̪í kɛ́i ɑmɑ᷈ n̪ɛ́i | jɑɾ̪eké pɑ̂ /

[opipik]

/p t̪ k/ <p t k>
/m n̪/ <m n>
/ɾ̪/ <r>
/(s̪) h/ <s h>
/w j/ <w y>

/i e ɛ ɑ ɔ o u/ <i e' e a o o' u>

/ɑ ɑ́ ɑ̂ ɑ̌ ɑ᷈/ <a aa CCaa~qaa CCa~qa ax>


/ɛn̪ɛ᷈ kéi pékɑ̂ ut̪ímɑ̂pɔ | n̪ɑmɑ᷈i | ɔt̪ɔpɑ᷈e | pɛmɔ́ | hó | kɛí ɾ̪ɛíkɑ̂ hó | kɛí hókɑ̂ hó pɔt̪ɔímɔ́ || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛ́ikɑ̂ úmɔ́ || ûn̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔwɑt̪í t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ wín̪û mɔí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é kɔn̪ikɔn̪í pɑt̪ên̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ ú || /

Ener kee'i peekkaa utiimmaapo, namaxi, otopaxe', pemoo, hoo', keii reiikkaa hoo', keii hoo'kkaa hoo' potoiimoo. Amaxnanee' roux te reeikkaa uumoo. Quunanee' rowatii te amax wiinnuu moii. Ammaananee' konikonii pattee'nanee' amax uu.

[Max1461]

/p t̪ k/ <p t c~qu>
/m n̪/ <m n>
/ɾ̪/ <r>
/(s̪) h/ <s h>
/w j/ <hv j>

/i e ɛ ɑ ɔ o u/ <i ey e a o ov u>

/ɑ ɑ́ ɑ̂ ɑ̌ ɑ᷈/ <a á à á' ã>


/ɛn̪ɛ᷈ kéi pékɑ̂ ut̪ímɑ̂pɔ | n̪ɑmɑ᷈i | ɔt̪ɔpɑ᷈e | pɛmɔ́ | hó | kɛí ɾ̪ɛíkɑ̂ hó | kɛí hókɑ̂ hó pɔt̪ɔímɔ́ || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛ́ikɑ̂ úmɔ́ || ûn̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔwɑt̪í t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ wín̪û mɔí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é kɔn̪ikɔn̪í pɑt̪ên̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ ú/

Enẽ quéyi péykà utímàpo namãi otopãey pemó hóv queí reícà queí hóvcà hóv potoímó amãnanéy roũ te réicà úmó ùnanéy rohvatí te amã hvínù moí amãnanéy coniciní patènané amã ú

------------

/t̫ t k q/
/t' k'/
/b d dɮ ɟ/
/ɗ/
/f s ɬ ɬ̡ ɕ x χ h/
/ð̫ ɣ ʕ/
/l ɻ ʀ/
/m n ɲ/

/i ɨ ɨ˞/
/ɤ ɤ˞ o o˞/
/ə ə˞/
/a a˞/

/à á à̰/

/qfó˞ ndà˞ʀà̰ kóɲɬɤ̀˞ ɣáɗn kɬàóḭ̀ dí bdɮə́˞sák sqòxkmòú hí də̀ɣáà̰ɲ ə́t'íɨ́ð̫ kà ə̀í dà̰˞ɟʕá ɨ̀˞sɨ̀ɗɤ́n χmòì móɨ́ɬ ɣð̫ɤ̰̀˞ɻk' tá/

[Nannalu]

/p t̪ k/ <p t k>
/m n̪/ <m n>
/ɾ̪/ <r>
/(s̪) h/ <s h>
/w j/ <w j>

/i e ɛ ɑ ɔ o u/ <i ę e a o ǫ u>

/ɑ ɑ́ ɑ̂ ɑ̌ ɑ᷈/ <a aa CCaa~xaa CCa~xa ax>


/ɛn̪ɛ᷈ kéi pékɑ̂ ut̪ímɑ̂pɔ | n̪ɑmɑ᷈i | ɔt̪ɔpɑ᷈e | pɛmɔ́ | hó | kɛí ɾ̪ɛíkɑ̂ hó | kɛí hókɑ̂ hó pɔt̪ɔímɔ́ || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛ́ikɑ̂ úmɔ́ || ûn̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔwɑt̪í t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ wín̪û mɔí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é kɔn̪ikɔn̪í pɑt̪ên̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ ú/
Enex keei peekkaa utiimmaapo, namaxi, otopaxe, pemmoo, hǫǫ, keii reiikkaa hǫǫ, keii hǫǫkkaa hǫǫ potoiimoo. Amaxnanęę roux te reeokkaa uumoo. Xuunanęę rowatii te amax wiinnuu moii. Amaxnanęę konikonii pattęęnanęę amax uu.

[opipik]

/p t̪ k/ <p t k>
/m n̪/ <m n>
/ɾ̪/ <r>
/(s̪) h/ <s h>
/w j/ <w y>

/i e ɛ ɑ ɔ o u/ <i ẹ e a o ọ u>

/ɑ ɑ́ ɑ̂ ɑ̌ ɑ᷈/ <a ȧ à á â> <i ï ì í î>


/ɛn̪ɛ᷈ kéi pékɑ̂ ut̪ímɑ̂pɔ | n̪ɑmɑ᷈i | ɔt̪ɔpɑ᷈e | pɛmɔ́ | hó | kɛí ɾ̪ɛíkɑ̂ hó | kɛí hókɑ̂ hó pɔt̪ɔímɔ́ || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛ́ikɑ̂ úmɔ́ || ûn̪ɑn̪é ɾ̪ɔwɑt̪í t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ wín̪û mɔí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é kɔn̪ikɔn̪í pɑt̪ên̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ ú || ûn̪ɑn̪é | kɛí hɑwɑ̂ t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ weɑ᷈ mɔi || ɑmɑ᷈n̪ɑn̪é kɛí pɔ ɑmɑ᷈ keí || kén̪ɑn̪é t̪ɔkɔt̪imɑ́ pɛkɛ᷈ t̪ɛ jɑí || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é pɔi᷈ || ɑmɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é piki᷈n̪ɑn̪é kɛí pɔ ɑmɑ᷈ peí || pén̪ɑn̪é ɑmɑ᷈ hókɑ̂ ú || hón̪ɑn̪é | kɔɾ̪ɛɾ̪ín̪ɑn̪é | hit̪ɛ̂i mɑ́in̪ɑ | kɛ́i ú ɑmɑ᷈ uɾ̪ɑ́i || kɛ́i hó t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ ɾ̪ɛí || ɾ̪ɔu᷈ t̪ɛ ɾ̪ɛiɾ̪ɑ́kɑ ûnɑn̪é we᷈ t̪ɛ ɑmɑ᷈ jɛ́i || jɑ̂n̪ɑn̪é | kɛ́i iɾ̪ín̪ɑn̪é | hɔwɑ᷈ n̪ɑ̂ mɑ̂kɑɾ̪í kɛ́i ɑmɑ᷈ n̪ɛ́i | jɑɾ̪eké pɑ̂ /

Enê kẹ̇i pẹ̇kâ utïmâpo, namâi, otopâẹ, pemȯ, họ̇, keï reïkâ họ̇, keï họ̇kâ họ̇ potoïmȯ. Amânanẹ̇ roû te rėikâ u̇mȯ. Únanẹ̇ rowatï te amâ wïnú moï. amânanẹ̇ konikonï patệnanẹ̇ amâ u̇. Únanẹ̇, keï hawâ te amâ wẹâ moi. Amânanẹ̇ keï po amâ kẹï. Kẹ̇nanẹ̇ tokotimȧ pekê te yaï. Amânanẹ̇ poî. Amânanẹ̇ pikînanẹ̇ keï po amâ pẹï. Pẹ̇nanẹ̇ amâ họ̇kâ u̇. Họ̇nanẹ̇, korerïnanẹ̇, hitêi mȧina, kėi u̇ amâ urȧi. Kėi họ̇ te amâ reï. Roû te reirȧka únanẹ̇ wệ te amâ yėi. Yânanẹ̇, kėi irïnanẹ̇, howâ nâ mâkarï kėi amâ nėi, yarẹkẹ̇ pâ.

[Hallow XIII]

Ubghuu

/m mʲ n ŋ/
/p pʲ t ts̻ k q ʔ/
/pʰ pʲʰ tʰ ts̻ʰ kʰ qʰ/
/b bʲ d dz̻ ɡ ɢ/
/f fʲ s s̻ h/
/ʋ r l j/
/i ĩ e ɛ ɛ̃ a ã ɔ ɔ̃ o u ũ/
/V Vː ˩ ˧ ˥/

The voiceless stops are realized as voiced intervocalically. The voiced stops are aspirated at the beginning of words, except in sandhi with a preceding final non-aspirate non-resonant, and fricate intervocalically. The exception is the voiced uvular stop, which is optionally fricated in all positions except immediately after a velar nasal, which is realized as uvular before a uvular consonant. This applies also to /q/ allophonically realized as [ɢ]. The fricatives also voice at the beginning of words. The apical consonants are retroflex in all positions, except after a palatalized labial, where they become palato-alveolar: /pʲlaʋ˥/ is realized as [pʎæw˥]. The maximal syllable structure is CCVC, with the only clusters allowed being ʔC, NC with N homorganic, and C1C2 where C2 is apical.

High and low tone spread rightward, blocked by a following high or low tone or a glottal stop. High tone spreads maximally to the penultimate syllable, low tone to the final syllable.

Example text:

/pɛʔ˥ soŋ˥ krɔpʰ˧ ˈkʰa˥ʔa˧ ʔɡi˧ˈdz̻aːq˩uː˧ bo˧ ja˧ dz̻ɛp̚˥ bu˧ˈfaʔ˧uː˧/
/dz̻ɛp˥ ŋa˧ mbɔː˩ krɔpʰ˧ bo˧ s̻a˧ soː˥ bu˧ˈliː˥uː˧/
/dz̻apʰ˥ ʋi˧ˈtoŋ˧ ŋa˧ iʔ˧ɢu˧ˈɢuː˥uː˧ ne˧ˈhĩː˧ fʲɛ̃ː˩ ne˧ˈhĩː˧ kɛ˧ˈkaː˩/

[pɛʔ˥ ʂoŋ˥ kɽɔpʰ˧ ˈkʰa˥ʔa˧ ʔɡi˧ˈzaː˩ʁuː˩ bʱo˧ jæ˧ dzʱɛp̚˥ bu˧ˈvaʔ˧ʔuː˧]
[dzʱɛp̚˥ ŋə˧ mbɔː˩ kɽɔpʰ˧ bʱo˧ zə˧ ʐoː˥ bʱu˧ˈɭiː˥juː˧]
[dzʱapʰ˥ ʋɪ˧ˈɖoŋ˧ ŋə˧ iʔ˧ɢʊ˧ˈʁuː˥ʔuː˧ ɳe˧ˈhĩː˧ vʲɛ̃ː˩ ɳe˧ˈhĩː˧ kɛ˧ˈɡaː˩]