Page 1 of 9
The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:07 pm
by Izambri
Doesn't happen to you that, when conlanging, you're trying to find the perfect word for that concept and you end coming with more than one candidate?
Well, sometimes (not very often) I have this dilemma; that very moment when I would need a Lexicon Building Counselling Service.
I've come with four possible words for "onion", and I'm not sure which is better to resume the concept of "not so beautiful, and has horrible taste". In other cases I would take all four and put them as dialectal forms, but in this case I may use each one for different meanings:
grese ['gɾɛzə]
grefe ['gɾɛfə] or grofe ['gɾɔfə]
berce ['bɛɾsə]
Obviously the whole thing is very subjective, related to how the words sound and, possibly, the look of the written forms.
Some suggestions, anyone?
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:17 pm
by Soap
Is this conlang from scratch, or is there a parent language?
Sometimes with Poswa and Pabappa I'll make as many as 30 forms of the same word, and just let them sit there until I decide which ones I want. Even then I might keep some of the unused ones and mark them as "ARCHAIC". In almost all cases though, these words are compounds of other words, and are taken from the parent language.
I love onions though. Great with almost any type of sandwich.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:26 pm
by Izambri
Soap wrote:Is this conlang from scratch, or is there a parent language?
Hellesan is a priori conlang.
Sometimes with Poswa and Pabappa I'll make as many as 30 forms of the same word, and just let them sit there until I decide which ones I want. Even then I might keep some of the unused ones and mark them as "ARCHAIC".
I do the same; generally is a thing I like to decide by myself (because conlanging is a personal thing to me, after all). In this case, though, I'm not sure what to do.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:22 pm
by MIGUELbM
grofe sound best for me.
This should be a sticky
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:33 pm
by Nortaneous
I was hoping berce would have [ts], but for me: berce > grofe > grefe > grese.
(also, the Insular Kett word for 'onion' is now bérce [ˈbeɾtsɪj], from Proto-Kett wkerća or something i guess)
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:39 pm
by Izambri
Nortaneous wrote:I was hoping berce would have [ts]
Now that you mention it, Hellesan has ['bəɾtsə] in the Garamançan dialect.
I think I'll use
grese for "potato". The word has a potatoish quality, dunno why.
(also, the Insular Kett word for 'onion' is now bérce [ˈbeɾtsɪj], from Proto-Kett wkerća or something i guess)
It's nice to be inspirational XD
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:40 pm
by clawgrip
Onion in Proto-Frinthan is ŕatū. I haven't decided one for Himmaswa yet, but maybe I'll make it greh based on this root. Potato in Himmaswa is dur.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:38 pm
by Izambri
clawgrip wrote:Onion in Proto-Frinthan is ŕatū. I haven't decided one for Himmaswa yet, but maybe I'll make it greh based on this root. Potato in Himmaswa is dur.
I like
dur for "potato" because
dur is Catalan for "hard, tough, stiff". I think I'll use it as a root for "sweet potato" in Hellesan.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:41 pm
by clawgrip
For the record, in Himmaswa it's pronounced [dɚː]. The Romanization I use for Himmaswa is a little strange and very much based on English spelling rules.
Starch is durtoa [dɚːtʰɔo̯] (potato powder).
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:54 pm
by Izambri
clawgrip wrote:For the record, in Himmaswa it's pronounced [dɚː]. The Romanization I use for Himmaswa is a little strange and very much based on English spelling rules.
Funny, because I've just finished the entry for
sweet potato, and I needed to change the
dur– root to
dar–. XD
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:00 am
by clawgrip
I guess that means they are false cognates instead of loanwords.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:59 am
by L'alphabētarium
Izambri wrote:...a Lexicon Building Counselling Service.
Great idea! Could be very useful for these kinds of dilemmas.
---------
Which one of the following sounds best to mean "arrow" to you?
síl [siːl]
(or)
sílta ['siːl.tə]
ní [niː]
línt(e) ['liːn.t(ə)]
As you can see, a long
is necessary. It somehow gives the word a sense of spíd and swiftness (for me).
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:19 am
by clawgrip
I choose ni.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:30 am
by MIGUELbM
L'alphabētarium wrote:Izambri wrote:...a Lexicon Building Counselling Service.
Great idea! Could be very useful for these kinds of dilemmas.
---------
Which one of the following sounds best to mean "arrow" to you?
síl [siːl]
(or)
sílta ['siːl.tə]
ní [niː]
línt(e) ['liːn.t(ə)]
As you can see, a long
is necessary. It somehow gives the word a sense of spíd and swiftness (for me).
I'd go for sílta, the S gives me more of a sense of movement than the L or N and the second syllable sounds like an impact. SÍL (moving very fast), TA (striking the target)
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:28 am
by Izambri
L'alphabētarium wrote:Which one of the following sounds best to mean "arrow" to you?
síl [siːl]
(or) sílta ['siːl.tə]
ní [niː]
línt(e) ['liːn.t(ə)]
As you can see, a long is necessary. It somehow gives the word a sense of spíd and swiftness (for me).
Síl and sílta are the best IMO. The síl– root has something that implies concepts like "fast; passing; smooth friction" thanks to [s].
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:40 am
by L'alphabētarium
Izambri wrote:L'alphabētarium wrote:Which one of the following sounds best to mean "arrow" to you?
síl [siːl]
(or) sílta ['siːl.tə]
ní [niː]
línt(e) ['liːn.t(ə)]
As you can see, a long is necessary. It somehow gives the word a sense of spíd and swiftness (for me).
Síl and sílta are the best IMO. The síl– root has something that implies concepts like "fast; passing; smooth friction" thanks to [s].
MIGUELbM wrote:I'd go for sílta, the S gives me more of a sense of movement than the L or N and the second syllable sounds like an impact. SÍL (moving very fast), TA (striking the target)
Thanks for the opinions!
I'll probably go with sílta and use síl as a root to mean "throw" or "shoot" or something like that.
I'm gonna find better use for ní and línt(e).
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:54 am
by Izambri
clawgrip wrote:I guess that means they are false cognates instead of loanwords.
Not loanwords, no. In any case the word is
darumfet (or
drumfet, through syncope) "sweet potato", originally "little yam", since it's a diminutive of
darumf "yam", an old Hellesan adaptation of a certain foreign word.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:25 pm
by L'alphabētarium
BTW, Izambri, how do you pronounce Hellesan? The Castillian way, the Catalan way or elseway*?
(*this word should totally exist!)
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:42 pm
by Izambri
L'alphabētarium wrote:BTW, Izambri, how do you pronounce Hellesan? The Castillian way, the Catalan way or elseway*?
(*this word should totally exist!)
The native words are
hel·leu [ə'ɫ:ɛw], [ə'ɫ:əw] or [e'ɫ:ɛw] and
hel·lesà [əɫ:ə'za] or [eɫ:e'za], and they're written and pronounced the same way in Catalan.
The English word is
Hellesan, and I'd say is pronounced [ˈæɫ:əzæn] or [ˈæɫ:əzən].
The Spanish word would be **
helesano, but since
català is
catalán and not
catalano, we could consider
helesán [ele'san].
What about Greek?
ελλεσανική γλώσσα perhaps?
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:11 pm
by spats
Izambri wrote:
The native words are hel·leu [ə'ɫ:ɛw], [ə'ɫ:əw] or [e'ɫ:ɛw] and hel·lesà [əɫ:ə'za] or [eɫ:e'za], and they're written and pronounced the same way in Catalan.
The English word is Hellesan, and I'd say is pronounced [ˈæɫ:əzæn] or [ˈæɫ:əzən].
Judging from the original pronunciation and the spelling, I'd expect [ɛ.lə'zɑn] or [hɛ.lə'zɑn] in GA; maybe [hə'ɫi.zən] or [hə'ɫi.zi.ən] if the speaker isn't familiar with the word.
English lacks geminate consonants; the double L would be an indication that the first <e> was short. Also, a single <e> is almost invariably pronounced as one of [ɛ i ə], except in open syllables in obvious loanwords, where it can sometimes be [e] instead. Where you get [l] vs [ɫ] is allophonic; I'm sort of doing my transcription by "feel" but YMMV.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:45 pm
by Thry
Consider cognate Heleo too for Spanish.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:36 pm
by Click
What is the better word for rain in Isenian?
mbu [ᵐbù] or cú [kʷú]
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:07 pm
by Thry
The former sounds more fluid to me.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:17 pm
by MIGUELbM
Izambri wrote:L'alphabētarium wrote:BTW, Izambri, how do you pronounce Hellesan? The Castillian way, the Catalan way or elseway*?
(*this word should totally exist!)
The native words are
hel·leu [ə'ɫ:ɛw], [ə'ɫ:əw] or [e'ɫ:ɛw] and
hel·lesà [əɫ:ə'za] or [eɫ:e'za], and they're written and pronounced the same way in Catalan.
The English word is
Hellesan, and I'd say is pronounced [ˈæɫ:əzæn] or [ˈæɫ:əzən].
The Spanish word would be **
helesano, but since
català is
catalán and not
catalano, we could consider
helesán [ele'san].
What about Greek?
ελλεσανική γλώσσα perhaps?
A small correction there: the word "helesán" shouldn't use the ´ thingy (I don't know the name in english), words that end in "n", "s" or a vowel and are stressed in the last syllable do not need it.
Re: The Lexicon Building Counselling Service
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:16 am
by Thry
xD Miguel, Izambri's a native too.
Those are actually the ones that take an accent: catalán, carnés, paró, ... (if they don't have an accent, they are stressed in the second-to-last syllable: perro, axis, cantan).
The name is acute accent btw.