zompist bboard

A proto-language for Ginös:

PHONOLOGY

Consonants: /p b t t' d k k' g q qʼ ɢ ʔ/ <p b t tt d k kk g ḳ ḳḳ ġ q>
/s z χ ʁ h/ <s z ḥ ʒ h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/l r/ <l r> (the /r/ could be a trill or approximant)
The vowels are: /ɒ ɛ i~e o u ɤ~ə æ/ <a e i o u õ ä> These vowels my form diphthongs or be doubled.

Example words:

kun - one
dor - two
gõnik - three
nguu - four
toukõ - five
keikõ - six
kundrin - seven
dordrin - eight
gõnikdrin - nine
nguudrin - ten
toukõdrin - eleven
dorkeikõs - twelve
gõnikkeikõs - eighteen
nguukeikõs - 24
nguukeikõskun - 25
toukõkeikõstoukõ - 35 (shortened sometimes to "toukeistou")
diin - 36
keikõdiin - 216 (sometimes "keidiin")
diidiin - 1296 (Proto-Ginösic uses a base 6 system.)
dordrinkeikõdiin - 1728

Nuusdrõ ḳol - Our speech (Ginös)

Proto-Ginösic - English - Estonian
nuu/nuus - I/we - ma/me
ngoul/ngouls - you/you(pl) - sa/te
sun/suns - he, she/they - ta/nad
kku/kkus - it, the/they, the (inanimate) - see/need
kõn/kõns - this - see
pa/pas - that - see
poi? - who? - kes?
bet? - what? - mis? (the last two words were inspired by Welsh)
bein? - when? - millal?
kein - now - nüüd
pain, koustem - soon - varsti
kous - early - vara
hõrtõõnma - later - hiljem
tõõn - late - hilja
betgõns? - why? - miks?
gõnspõn - reason - põhjus
peltõr? - how? - kuidas?
keltõr - this way, so - nii
paltõr - that way - nii
ʒuub - not - mitte, ei
uõn-uõn - all - kõik
uõn - many - palju
mien - big - suur
mientrõ - long - pikk
bo - small - väike, lühike
nron - woman - naine
dros - man - mees
ngõ - person - inimene
nõl - thing - asi
kuutrõl - fish - kala
drontrõl - bird - lind
zuu - dog - koer
hisi - louse - täi
ar - tree - puu
ḥõõ - seed - seeme
buu - leaf - leht
nrii - root - juur
gudrun - bark - koor
orgõn - create - looma
orto - animal - loom
Orgõnne - Creator (God) - Looja
kir - sound - heli
kirorgõnne - composer - helilooja

Ambrisio wrote:/k g q qʼ ɢ ʔ/ <k g ḳ ḳḳ ġ q>

This fills me with horror. I suggest instead <k g q qq ġ ʔ>.

Tere! Miks õpid eesti keelt?

/ʁ/ <ʒ>

Why.

Czech has the consonant rže which is an /r/ (trill) but your tongue is a bit deeper in your mouth. But this extreme action isn't the right decision to make.

I was thinking of Old English yogh and Arabic ghayn, not Czech rže.

As for the weird spellings, remember that this is the proto-language of Ginös.

And I initially thought of Proto-Ginösic /r/ as an alveolar trill, though I am tempted to make it an approximant /ɹ/ (like British R, not retroflexed like American R).

On to the morphology. The plural form is -s. There are no exceptions like English foot~feet. Diachronically the -s turned to a glottal fricative /h/, possibly via a velar fricative. The aspiration spread to the consonant in the root, which is why the Ginös plural is formed by aspirating the consonant in the root.

Did you omit /k'/ on purpose? From a typological perspective this is weird: /k'/ is the most common ejective, and if one ejective is missing from a series, it's usually /p'/, not /k'/.

Ambrisio wrote:On to the morphology. The plural form is -s. There are no exceptions like English foot~feet. Diachronically the -s turned to a glottal fricative /h/, possibly via a velar fricative. The aspiration spread to the consonant in the root, which is why the Ginös plural is formed by aspirating the consonant in the root.

Is /-s/ just added on no matter what the final consonant is?

kodé wrote:

Ambrisio wrote:On to the morphology. The plural form is -s. There are no exceptions like English foot~feet. Diachronically the -s turned to a glottal fricative /h/, possibly via a velar fricative. The aspiration spread to the consonant in the root, which is why the Ginös plural is formed by aspirating the consonant in the root.

Is /-s/ just added on no matter what the final consonant is?

I thought this was weird as well.

Would you mind describing the phonotactics of PGi?

I decided to change it slightly: The plural ending is -s following a vowel, plosive, nasal or approximant, -i following a sibilant, and -si following a fricative. (In Early Proto-Ginösic the ending was always -si, as a separate syllable.) So the plural of dros "man" is drosi while the plural of nron "woman" is nrons.
In traditional Ginös grammars, nouns ending with a sibilant should be called "masculine" (droskang) and all other nouns "feminine" (nronkang) even though these don't correspond to "genders" in the Indo-European sense. There is only one third person singular animate pronoun, for example, and adjectives do not change depending on gender. In fact, something weird happens with the adjectives: they are intrinsically masculine or feminine (depending on the ending consonant) and masculine adjectives may very well modify feminine nouns or vice versa. Adjectives do inflect with number, but not with case.

The phonotactics are (C)(A/L)V(V)(C)(s), where C = consonant, V = vowel, A = l or r, L = i or u. I aim for a somewhat Tibetan/Southeast Asian feel, even though the phonology is inspired by Korean, and some grammatical features are inspired by Japanese.

All Ginösic languages are consistently head-final.

As for k', it is not present in Ginös, so maybe I could stick it in the proto-language (instead of p') and have it evolve into p' via a coarticulated ejective like kp'.

Ambrisio wrote:I decided to change it slightly: The plural ending is -s following a vowel, plosive, nasal or approximant, -i following a sibilant, and -si following a fricative.

Sibilants are fricatives, I think what you mean is sibilant fricative & non-sibilant fricative. Though I'm just being nitpicky.

Ambrisio wrote:The vowels are: /ɒ ɛ i~e o u ɤ~ə æ/ <a e i o u õ ä> These vowels my form diphthongs or be doubled.

So where does the <ö> of Ginösic come in?

The ö comes from a neighboring (unrelated) language, which I haven't created yet. The ethnonym "Ginös" is not the native name for the language (which is Nuusdrõ ḳol (nʷʱəəɖˤə qʷˤə), Ziilbel or Gõnikqäis depending on the dialect).

Although I may change it to Ginõs later (since it very much looks like a Proto-Ginösic word, which could descend into something like gʲəɳʱə).

More words:

ḳḳõ - skin - nahk
ḥõõs - meat, flesh - liha
ḳoḥõ - blood - veri
mes - bone - luu
mõupõn - fat - rasv
dom - egg - muna
ḥuon - horn - sarv
ngok - tail - saba
sik - feather - sulg
ḥõõl - hair - juuksed
ḥõḳo - head - pea
kkuob - ear - kõrv
tos - eye - silm
nos - nose - nina (borrowed from Russian)
preim - mouth - suu
raud - tooth - hammas
ḳol, ḳolpõn - tongue - keel
ḳḳus - nail, claw - küüs (not borrowed from Estonian; I especially love this "false cognate")
zaar - leg - jalg
hõtpõn - hand - käsi

legolasean wrote:Czech has the consonant rže which is an /r/ (trill) but your tongue is a bit deeper in your mouth. But this extreme action isn't the right decision to make.

Please, learn what you're trying to say before you try to say it. That was so badly said it's wrong.

Nuuken teidortrun qõsmäk trei
I-DAT ordinal-two-TRANSL heart-INESS be-PAST
"I agree with that"

A strange bit about the verbal system: Verbs in Ginösic languages are a closed class. There are only two verbs: tri "be" and go "do". Since these verbs are extremely common, they are irregular.

Proto-Ginösic forms with English and Estonian translations
Past tense: trei, ngoun "was/were, did" "oli, tegi"
Future tense: õdris, loors "will be, will do" "on/hakkab olema, teeb/hakkab tegema"
Perfect: nreis ho, loor ho "have been, have done" "on olnud, on teenud"
Past perfect: nreis hus, loor hus "had been, had done" "oli olnud, oli teenud"
Progressive: treing, loung "being, doing" "olles, tehes"
Present conditional: trei, ngoun "were, did" "oleks, teeks"
Past conditional: hus nreis, hus loor "had been, had done" "oleks olnud, oleks teenud"
Future conditional: trimäk trei, gomäk trei "were to be, were to do" "oleks, teeks"
Infinitive: trimäk, gomäk "to be, to do" "olla/olema, teha/tegema"
Imperative: tri!, go! "be!, do!", "ole!, tee!"

Ambrisio wrote:nʷʱəəɖˤə qʷˤə

what

one vowel? or

Nortaneous wrote:

Ambrisio wrote:nʷʱəəɖˤə qʷˤə

what

one vowel? or

Yes, apparently.

Ambrisio wrote:A strange bit about the verbal system: Verbs in Ginösic languages are a closed class. There are only two verbs: tri "be" and go "do". Since these verbs are extremely common, they are irregular.

So this is basically like Basque, but to the extreme. Really what you have are two conjugatable auxiliaries that take different argument structure or voice or something like that (active/stative or intransitive/transitive), while the rest of the verbs are not conjugated at all. Basque does have different participial forms for its (otherwise not conjugated) verbs; do you think you'll do the same thing?

kodé wrote:

Ambrisio wrote:A strange bit about the verbal system: Verbs in Ginösic languages are a closed class. There are only two verbs: tri "be" and go "do". Since these verbs are extremely common, they are irregular.

So this is basically like Basque, but to the extreme. Really what you have are two conjugatable auxiliaries that take different argument structure or voice or something like that (active/stative or intransitive/transitive), while the rest of the verbs are not conjugated at all. Basque does have different participial forms for its (otherwise not conjugated) verbs; do you think you'll do the same thing?

Great! Now Basque is no longer an isolate.

More words:

Ginösic - English - Estonian
brem - stomach - kõht
ġuz - neck - kael
pin - breast - rind
qõs - heart - süda
ngis - liver - maks
sool - drink - jooma
ġõzõ - eat - sööma
kõtru (also "rauddrõrim") - bite - hammustama
uḳõn - see - nägema
qool - hear - kuulma
gubood - know - teadma (from Welsh "gwybod")
sir - sleep - magama
sai - die - surema
saital - kill - tapma
mõs - swim - ujuma
träi - fly - lendama
põtro - walk - jalutama
ngõel - come - tulema
ġul - lie - pikutama
zõõ - sit - istuma
ngõs - stand - seisma
ngiin - give - andma
or - live - elama, asuma
ḳuol - say, speak - ütlema, rääkima
rõn - sun, star - päike, täht
lõm - moon - kuu
ngiis - water - vesi
sip ngiis - rain - vihma sadama
sen - ice - jää
meinsen - snow - lumi
sip sen - snow - lund sadama
qäi - stone - kivi
ngõd - sand - liiv
mul - earth - maa
Ordrõmul/Ormul - Earth - Maa
sid - cloud - pilv
it - smoke - suits
dol - fire - tuli
daʒõn - ash - tuhk, põrm
ġõtrõn - path - tee
ziil - mountain - mägi
set - color - värv
ngiil, ngiilset - red - punane
bies - green, grass - roheline, rohi
ḥup - yellow - kolland
mal - gold - kuld
malset - golden - kuldne
sil - silver - hõbe
silset - silver - hõbedane
ḳis - white - valge
ġir - black - must
(rõn)matuo - night - öö
(rõn)nustuo - daytime - päevaaeg
(an interesting bit about the etymology: "ma" is the ablative case ending, and "nis" is the allative. "Tuo" is a nominalizer. "Rõn" is the sun.)
kkar - twirl - keerutus
mulkkar - day (a twirl of the earth) - päev (Maa keerutus)
ruos - circle, around - ring, ümber
rõnruos - year - aasta (päiksega ümber)
lõmruos, lõmkkar - month - kuu
ngõ - good - hea
sur - hot - kuum
koud - cold - külm
gon - whole - kogu
nros - name - nimi

Note: The verbs are not really verbs, just nouns that function as gerunds, so qool means "hearing". However, while Nuu kõndrõ qoolmäk tri is an perfectly acceptable way to say "I am hearing it", Ginösic speakers prefer more physical descriptions, like Nuudrõ kkuobnõs go kõn (I-GEN ear-ILL go it-NOM).

In Ziilbelic (a branch of Ginösic) verbal constructions become more common, and the language evolves into a VSO/SVO language due to a V2 intermediate. The inessive ending -mäk becomes a sort of gerund or infinitive (c.f. Estonian kuuldes 'hearing', the -s is the inessive). tri and go become tense markers while the meaning of ormäk "living" shifts to "being". So in Proto-Ziilbelic, "The sun is golden" is etymologically "Tri rõn ormäk maltrin" while in Proto-Ginösic it is "Rõn maltrin tri".

Here are the 20 cases of Proto-Ginösic:

Nominative: ttus - house - maja / ttusi - houses - majad
Genitive: ttusdrõ - of the house - maja / ttusidrõ - of the houses - majade
(There is no accusative case in Proto-Ginösic.)
Dative: ttusken - to the house - majale
Equative: ttustrin - as a house - majana, nagu maja
Instrumental: ttustoo - with/using a house - majaga
Adessive: ttustrõb - near a house - maja juures
Inessive: ttusmäk - inside a house - majas, maja sees
Superessive: ttuspai - on a house - maja peal
Locative: ttusnon - in a house - majas, maja sees (this may also be used for expressions of time)
Allative: ttusnis - to the house - majja
Ablative: ttusma - from the house - majast (mostly used for possession, with personal objects, such as nuuma - from me)
Delative: ttuspres - from (the top of) the house - maja pealt
Elative: ttusmõ - out of the house - maja seest
Illative: ttusnõs - into the house - maja sisse
Sublative: ttuskols - onto the house - maja peale
Terminative: ttusbar - as far as the house - majani
Benefactive: ttusro - for the house - majale
Causal: ttusgõns - because of the house - maja pärast
Comitative: ttustoon - with the house - majaga koos
Translative: ttustrun - into a house - majaks

(I give Estonian glosses partly because the cases are inspired by Finno-Ugric languages, particularly Estonian and Hungarian. The ending -pai for the superessive comes from Estonian peal.)

The cases in Ginösic languages are sometimes used very differently from terrestrial languages, as in:

English: I love you
Proto-Ginösic: Nuuma ngoulnis ttupõn tri (I-ABL you-ALL love-NOM be-PRES)
(Literal translation of Proto-Ginösic: There is love from me to you.)

English: My name is Ambrisio
Proto-Ginösic: Nuudrõ nros Ambrisio'trun tri (I-GEN name Ambrisio-TRANSL be-PRES, although Nuuken nrostrin Ambrisio go is more formal).

English: I gave him a book
Proto-Ginösic: Ngiingõns piltõnte sunnis ngoun (give-CAUS book-PART he-ALL do-PAST) (the verb go means "go" in addition to "do", when used with the ablative, allative, and delative cases.) Like Japanese, the actor is often dropped in sentences. Otherwise, the actor would be in the genitive, modifying the verb:
Nuudrõ ngiingõns piltõnte sunnis ngoun (I-GEN give-CAUS book-PART he-ALL do-PAST)

The partitive in Ginösic is a grammatical number, not a case. It signifies partial action. Nouns marked with the partitive are always feminine: the plural suffix -s adds to the partitive morpheme -te. Without the morpheme, the sentence would read:

Ngiingõns piltõn sunnis ngoun.
"He received the book".

English: One and one make two.
Proto-Ginösic: Kunnõm kunnõm dortrun tri. (The 'and' suffix, õm, with reduplication of the last consonant if the word ends with a consonant and m if the word ends with the vowel, is sort of like Latin -que. Observe that "two" is in the translative case, as only one word in a sentence can be nominative in Proto-Ginösic.)

I have decided to revise Proto-Ginösic once again, by restoring the verbs and getting rid of some of the unusual case usages. For example, in a sentence "A is B", B could be in the nominative or translative case (the distinction is sort of like Spanish ser / estar). I still have to decide what to do with 'tri' and 'go', however. These may mark transitivity in addition to tense.

And I now have a script, based on Hangul:
And the numerals (rarely written out in full, so it is always '1' rather than 'kun', '2' rather than 'dor', etc.), which use a base 6 place value system:
There are also some ideographs for commonly used words. The alphabet isn't used in listing, as in ABC... Instead, certain concepts in Ginösic philosophy are used (I haven't thought of them yet). These are even used in algebra instead of the variables x, y, alpha, beta, ...

Something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_stem

Check out the current usage section.

Yes, it is kind of like the celestial stems in Chinese.

Here are the tense markers (the words in even-numbered positions are in the progressive aspect).

tri - like the English simple present
go - present progressive
trei - like English simple past with a habitual connotation, e.g. "used to"
ngoun - like English past or past progressive
õdris tri - like English future
loors tri - like English future (there is a slight difference in usage -- loors is more like a future progressive)
In the perfect tenses these are: nreis ho, loor ho, nreis hun, loor hun, nreis nreis ho (in casual speech nreis rõ ho), loors nreis ho (or loors rõ ho).

The present conditional forms are identical to the past tense. The past conditional is identical to the past perfect. The future conditional is always trei, regardless of the aspect. The infinitive marker -mäk is attached to the verb.

There is also a negative mood, marked with -b and an occasional backing of the vowel. So: trub, goub, trõõb, ngoub, õdris trub, loors trub, nreis hob, loor hob, nreis huub, loor huub, nreisrõ hob, loorsrõ hob, trõõb.

The interrogative mood is marked with a complementizer: lo 'whether'.

Nuu ngoulken ttu tri. "I love you".
Lo nuu ngoulken ttu tri? "Do I love you?"

Another construction is "mel ... ʒuub", as in:

Nuu ngoulken ttu mel ttu ʒuub tri? (gloss: love or love not) - from Estonian 'kas ... või mitte'.