Phonoaesthetics

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
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Chagen
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Chagen »

masako wrote:
Chagen wrote:I especially love /b/, but a lot of people don't for some odd reason.[citation needed]
I cannot speak for everyone but it seems that names ending in /b/ are just not considered as good-sounding to most as names that don't.

Personally, I like words that end in stops, but most English speakers seem to prefer words that end in vowels or liquids.
Nūdhrēmnāva naraśva, dṛk śraṣrāsit nūdhrēmanīṣṣ iźdatīyyīm woḥīm madhēyyaṣṣi.
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by CalebWhite »

Chagen wrote:
masako wrote:
Chagen wrote:I especially love /b/, but a lot of people don't for some odd reason.[citation needed]
I cannot speak for everyone but it seems that names ending in /b/ are just not considered as good-sounding to most as names that don't.

Personally, I like words that end in stops, but most English speakers seem to prefer words that end in vowels or liquids.
Ahem, CalebWhite... :)

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masako
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by masako »

Chagen wrote:I cannot speak for everyone but it seems that names ending in /b/ are just not considered as good-sounding to most as names that don't.

Personally, I like words that end in stops, but most English speakers seem to prefer words that end in vowels or liquids.
What data are you basing your assertions on?

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Chagen »

Mostly randomly looking on Behind The Name (probably discredited myself right there). People there tend to have more negative feelings for names that end in "odd/harsh" sounds like /g/ or /b/.


Also, I once told my father that I wanted to name my hypothetical future daughter "Hildegard" and he thought it sounded "too German". But that's a personal anecdote, so it probably doesn't count.

...Okay, fine, I'll admit that I don't really have data for this. Sorry. I'll retract my statements until I can find more conclusive data, if possible.
Nūdhrēmnāva naraśva, dṛk śraṣrāsit nūdhrēmanīṣṣ iźdatīyyīm woḥīm madhēyyaṣṣi.
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by din »

masako wrote:
din wrote:I haven't got much to say about this except for: A conlang never ends up sounding how you intended it to.
I'm gonna stop you right there only to say that you're talking crazy.

Aside from the fact that one can indeed choose almost any combination of phonemes that one wants, allophony, syllable structure, diachronics, and morpho-syntax can all be adjusted to reach what the creator may describe as euphonic. The absence of natlang or conlang precedent in any of these aspects is not the limiting factor, only one's imagination.
I can create words that sound exactly like I want them to, but as soon as I start deriving new words from existing elements, things generally take a life of their own. Add syntax to the mix and your pretty words end up flowing entirely differently.

That's my experience; apparently yours is very different ;)
— o noth sidiritt Tormiott

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masako
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by masako »

din wrote:I can create words that sound exactly like I want them to, but as soon as I start deriving new words from existing elements, things generally take a life of their own. Add syntax to the mix and your pretty words end up flowing entirely differently.
Stop doing it wrongly, I say.

There is no reason "things need to take on a life of their own"...you are making the language. Now, I understand the desire/inclination to let natural changes occur during development, but you can always tweak these things.

You are in control.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by CalebWhite »

masako wrote:
din wrote:I can create words that sound exactly like I want them to, but as soon as I start deriving new words from existing elements, things generally take a life of their own. Add syntax to the mix and your pretty words end up flowing entirely differently.
Stop doing it wrongly, I say.

There is no reason "things need to take on a life of their own"...you are making the language. Now, I understand the desire/inclination to let natural changes occur during development, but you can always tweak these things.

You are in control.
You're right, but so is din. Your experiences are different when creating conlangs.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by masako »

CalebWhite wrote:You're right, but so is din. Your experiences are different when creating conlangs.
It has nothing to do with "right/wrong" or even experience. There are no rules to this thing of ours, there is no governing body that decides which changes are allowed and which aren't. There is absolutely no reason that a conlang cannot sound exactly how the creator wants/intends...etc.

If I'd been keeping track, Kala is probably on version 3.4.2, or somesuch, that's because I know how I want it to sound/look/work and I make the appropriate changes as I go along. It's not that big of a deal. However, if you set out not ready to change at least a few things as you go you are indeed dooming yourself to dissatisfaction, though. That much I will gladly stipulate.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Thry »

I also dislike labials, especially word-final /b/, it's gross; but few sounds are ugly by themselves, I pay more attention to the words.

i.e. Ornikla sounds horrible to me but Ilcaron is pretty neat.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Astraios »

Adjective Recoil wrote:pf/bv have always appealed to me
*vomit*


EDIT: Krakatoa is definitely a cool word. It sounds like dry twigs snapping in a fire.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Click »

As for me, I like all these phonemesː /m n p bʷ t ts k kʷ s z ɕ a i o ai̯ ao̯/, especially the ones in boldface.
{p t k}ɾ clusters also sound good to me.
Ean wrote:I also dislike labials, especially word-final /b/, it's gross; but few sounds are ugly by themselves, I pay more attention to the words.
I dislike /b/, especially word-final, too.
Astraios wrote:EDIT: Krakatoa is definitely a cool word. It sounds like dry twigs snapping in a fire.
It is. :)

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din
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by din »

masako wrote:
CalebWhite wrote:You're right, but so is din. Your experiences are different when creating conlangs.
It has nothing to do with "right/wrong" or even experience. There are no rules to this thing of ours, there is no governing body that decides which changes are allowed and which aren't. There is absolutely no reason that a conlang cannot sound exactly how the creator wants/intends...etc.

If I'd been keeping track, Kala is probably on version 3.4.2, or somesuch, that's because I know how I want it to sound/look/work and I make the appropriate changes as I go along. It's not that big of a deal. However, if you set out not ready to change at least a few things as you go you are indeed dooming yourself to dissatisfaction, though. That much I will gladly stipulate.
Well of course you could decide to use a different affix, make a different compound, etc etc. if the one that seems most logical/poetic/con-culturally sensible/whatever does not sound all that nice, but I find it pretty much impossible to compromise all of these. That doesn't make me unhappy. I still have enough control over things to not end up being frustrated, and I actually like that it seems to take a life of its own, but I also find it hard to avoid (without revamping everything all the time)
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Ambrisio »

2-4 wrote:As for me, I like all these phonemesː /m n p bʷ t ts k kʷ s z ɕ a i o ai̯ ao̯/, especially the ones in boldface.
{p t k}ɾ clusters also sound good to me.
This is actually a great phonology for a conlang:
Here it is, tabulated:
CONSONANTS
Labial: p bʷ m
Alveolar: t~ɾ n s z ts
Alveopalatal: ɕ
Velar: k kʷ

VOWELS
i o a ai ao

CalebWhite
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by CalebWhite »

This isn't so much about phonemes, but about the phones themselves. I'm assuming for those of you who said /p/ appealed to them, that you meant [p]. Just to keep things straight :)

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Kvan »

Ambrisio wrote: This is actually a great phonology for a conlang:
Here it is, tabulated:
CONSONANTS
Labial: p bʷ m
Alveolar: t~ɾ n s z ts
Alveopalatal: ɕ
Velar: k kʷ

VOWELS
i o a ai ao
That is pretty awesome. Phonologically it seems Austronesian or... I'm not really sure. You should really consider making a language out of that.
From:
Economic Left/Right: -7.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69

To:
Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.33

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Ambrisio »

Actually it sounds kind of Amazonian to me (the vowel system is Piraha, minus the tones).

Well, it all depends on the phonotactics. It could be made to sound Indo-European or Caucasian by allowing more complicated consonant clusters, Sino-Tibetan by introducing appropriate tonal systems, etc. A word like /mnpbʷttskkʷszɕaioai̯ao̯/ is extremely unlikely to occur in an Austronesian language.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Gray Richardson »

I was very fond of Benjamin K. Shisler's website where he compiled his Dictionary of English Phonesthemes.
His site helped me think about several ideas for my own conlang.

Sadly the site was hosted on Geocities which is now gone. But I did find two archive sites that seem to have saved copies of his webpages.

Totally worth a look! You will find there lots of data about words that share an aesthetic association, or theme, with certain sounds, consonant clusters or vowels. There are extensive lists. It's a conlanger's dream.

You could use these lists to help inspire you to create phonesthetic associations for your own conlang using your own phonology. Or it could maybe help you identify what sounds and sound clusters you find aesthetically pleasing in English so that you could perhaps craft a language that sounded more pleasant to you. Or maybe it could help you think about why certain sounds are pleasing to Anglophone ears and how that might differ in other languages or cultures.

Check out this link below:
http://www.oocities.org/soho/studios/9783/phond1.html

Also this link, but it's incomplete. Some of the links on the reocities site seem broken:
http://reocities.com/SoHo/Studios/9783/ ... ml#initial

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Chagen
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Chagen »

2-4 wrote:As for me, I like all these phonemesː /m n p bʷ t ts k kʷ s z ɕ a i o ai̯ ao̯/, especially the ones in boldface.
{p t k}ɾ clusters also sound good to me.
Ean wrote:I also dislike labials, especially word-final /b/, it's gross; but few sounds are ugly by themselves, I pay more attention to the words.
I dislike /b/, especially word-final, too.
Astraios wrote:EDIT: Krakatoa is definitely a cool word. It sounds like dry twigs snapping in a fire.
It is. :)
Geeze I'm the only person here who likes word-final . One of my favorite sounds, personally.
Nūdhrēmnāva naraśva, dṛk śraṣrāsit nūdhrēmanīṣṣ iźdatīyyīm woḥīm madhēyyaṣṣi.
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Kereb »

nah

Ishtol is all about the word-final /b/. It's also the only voiced stop in the language.
but you're still an asshole.
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by R.Rusanov »

Salmoneus wrote:
Hubris Incalculable wrote:
JCD wrote:My own aesthetic sense is quite different from that of Tolkien's, so it's certainly not universal even if common to prefer soft phones.

Phones I quite like: (x-sampa)
k m v z x E

Phones I dislike:
b p w u 2 h

I'm not sure what the pattern here is, if there is any. I do tend to really like voiced fricatives of any sort though.
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Fuck off.
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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Yagia »

OK, let’s quit this /b/-thing now. In my conlang /b/ only appears word-initial, and scarcely so.

My favorite phonemes in my conlang are /ç/ /çj/ and /θ/ . I use them a lot, like in:
gafrinyo /gɑ’frinço/ ‘blossom’ (n.)
saccrayara /sɑkkrɑ’çarɑ/ ‘to go about ranting’
čicla /’θiklɑ/ ‘sound’
éčidio /e’θidio/ ‘art’
noučéa /nu’θeɑ/ ‘groin’

in some cases both may appear as a cluster:
čya /’θiçɑ/ ‘spark’
sačyio /sɑ’θiçjo/ ‘figure, silhouette’

Furthermore I like to make lots of different-sounding words with a relatively limited vowel inventory. And I want the sounds to reflect the meaning of words. Like:

barcouyo /bɑr ’cuço/ ‘fight, rumble’(n.)
cansilio /cɑn’silio/ ‘longing, desire’
fryani /fri’çani/ ‘to scream’
goulya / ’gulçɑ/ ‘perspiration’
lyo / ‘liço / ‘glow’ (n.)
propalyo / pro’pɑlço / ‘disgust’
rousaryata / rusɑr’çjatɑ / ‘gross’
Affacite iago Vayardyio fidigou accronésara! http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Vayardyio

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by PVER•PVERVM•AMAT »

Salmoneus wrote:
Anguipes wrote:
CalebWhite wrote:As many of you know, it is often said that "cellar door" is said to be the most beautiful phrase in English without regard to spelling or meaning. First of all, what makes {sɛ.lə.dɔː] or [sɛ.lɚ.dɔː] euphonic or phonetically aesthetic? Secondly, how could we, as conlangers, use this to our advantage to keep our conlangs sounding beautiful?
IIRC this was strictly the opinion of Tolkien, who never said it was a universal and was also into a rather simplistic set of phonaesthetics where "soft" sounds (e.g. vowels, glides, approximants) equaled civilization and refinement while "harsh" sounds (anything further back than palatal that isn't a stop or a nasal) equaled coarseness, barbarism or downright evil.

Sorry, but while that may be what people say about Tolkien, it really isn't accurate. Sindarin, for instance, has /x/, and Quenya itself isn't a particularly 'soft' language (it's certainly less 'soft' than Sindarin, though it's meant to be more civilised). Adunaic, the language of the noble Numenoreans, had such unsoft sentences as "Kadô Zigûrun zabathân unakkha". Most tellingly of all, the greatest and most noble language is surely that of the Valar themselves, and that is anything but soft! The elves described their language as like the glitter of swords and entirely unpleasing to Elvish ears. Known words include Ezellôchâr, Mâchananaškad, Tulukhedelgorûs, Tulukhastâz, and A3ûlêz. The language closest to the pure language of the gods may actually the Black Speech...
I'd like to note: in Sindarin /x/ is a phoneme, yes; but Quenya had [x] as well: it was an allophone of /h/ after /a/, /o/, and /u/; it was [ç] after /e/ and /i/, and [h] elsewhere.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by salem »

I really like voiceless nonsibilants, especially the palatal and alveolar ones, and also Shona's /s͡ɸ/.

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by Neon Fox »

One of the reasons I have never managed to get much of anywhere with Esperanto is that I loathe /ɔɪ/. I think it's a really ugly sound.

On the other hand I quite like the voiceless alveolar lateral fricative, which few people seem to.

"Cellar door" is pretty; it's very flowy.
Anguipes wrote:IIRC this was strictly the opinion of Tolkien, who never said it was a universal and was also into a rather simplistic set of phonaesthetics where "soft" sounds (e.g. vowels, glides, approximants) equaled civilization and refinement while "harsh" sounds (anything further back than palatal that isn't a stop or a nasal) equaled coarseness, barbarism or downright evil.
I believe it was here somewhere that someone said, "It’s everything to do with stereotypes that come from aping Tolkien and nothing to do with one’s native language. Tolkien had his goodraces go lalathielieliennennaetheth and badraces go ugbluzbarghburz, so we treat it like it’s part of how the world works."

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Re: Phonoaesthetics

Post by CatDoom »

I like liquids a lot; particularly approximants like [l] and [ɻ]. Consequently, I find a lot of Dravidian-language words appealing, especially place names like Tiruvannamalai or Malappuram.

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