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zompist bboard • View topic - Future Dutch, some questions about sound changes

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:28 pm 
Lebom
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I wasn't entirely sure where to post this, so I hope this will do.

Some time ago there was this thing that everyone was making future versions of existing languages, and I tried something with Dutch, as that is a language I speak well. I've been working on it on and off since then, which is to say I have been trying to come up with a satisfying set of sound changes. Recently I've redone those, and I'm wondering if anyone here would have a look at them and share their opinions. I've tried to come up with a set of naturalistic changes to reduce the complexity of consonant clusters, but I'm not sure if I succeeded. Some of my main concerns are the following:
-There are a lot of unconditioned changes, are there too many?
-Am I having too many changes that specifically focus on consonant cluster reduction?
-I change word initial and word final /s/ to /t/ at some point, filling a gap left by earlier /t/ (in the changes below I call this S-hardening). Is this excusable?
-I would also like some idea's on the approximate time span I came up with, is it anywhere near a reasonable estimate?
You may notice I've borrowed some interesting changes from other people on the board (think for example kn/ŋ/_ in relation to Germanic languages). The inspiration was/is much appreciated.

So far I haven't worked out anything else. No paradigms or syntactic changes or anything; I first want the sound changes done.

I first provide a list of definitions for the sound changes, then the sound changes in more or less chronological order (enough to order feeding and bleeding etc. changes correctly) providing dates indicating approximate completion of the changes. Finally there is a word list (mostly the swadesh list of Dutch as presented on , but with slightly altered transcription) with existing Dutch words and their forms as changed by the sound changes.

To provide some context I also added an analysis of the current 'phoneme' inventory of Dutch, and the inventory that emerges after the changes.

Definitions

C=ptkqʔbdgfsχhvzɬmnŋʋlʀ
V=iɪeɛyʏøəauoɔɑɨɘəʌæœ
L=ɨɘɘɜɨɘɘɔauoɔɔ
R=iɪɪɛyʏʏəauʊɔɑ
M=eøoiyu
A=ptkqbdgfsχhɬmnŋ
O=ptkqʔbdgfsχhvzɬ
F=fsχ
S=psq
N=mnŋ
D=bdg

Changes
change year
(technical change for getting transcription right)
ː//_

Changes complete in (some varieties of) current Dutch (but not normally transcribed as such)
n//ə_#
χ//s_ʀ
t//O_s

Liquid induced vowel lengthening (change in progress in northern Standard Dutch)
/ː/M_ʀ

œʏ/ɜː/_lC
œʏ/ɜː/_l#

æɪ/ɜː/_lC
æɪ/ɜː/_l#

ʌʊ/ɔː/_lC
ʌʊ/ɔː/_l#

V/L/_lC
V/L/_l#
V/R/_(ː)ʀ

ʀ/ː/_C
ʀ/ː/_#

l/ː/_C
l/ː/_#

ː//_ː

e/əː/_ʋ
i/ɨː/_ʋ

Loss of voicing contrast in fricatives (Change in progress in much of the Netherlands, and in some dialects [I consider ɣ/χ/_ to be complete already, although that's not true for everyone])
v/f/_
z/s/_

L-vocalisation (Advanced but hypothetical stage of current L-vocalisation in northern Dutch)
l/u/a_C
l/u/a_#

l/ː/u_C
l/ː/u_#

l/ː/o_C
l/ː/o_#

l/ː/ɔ_C
l/ː/ɔ_#

Coda liquid loss (Found in some people's speach for ʀ already)
l//_C
l//_#

ʀ//_C
ʀ//_#

ʋ//_C
ʋ//_# 2100

Fricative-Liquid coalescence (First completely made up change, I wanted to get ɬ)
fl/ɬ/_
sl/ɬ/_
χl/ɬ/_

fʀ/χ/_
sʀ/χ/_
χʀ/χ/_
ʋʀ/χ/_

Final devoicing made official (This one's actually over a thousand years old already, but needed to get the following changes working out correctly)
d/t/_#
d/t/_A
b/p/_#
b/p/_A

T-weakening (all further changes are completely made up, unless noted otherwise)
t/ʔ/#_V
t/ʔ/V(ː)_#
t/ʔ/V(ː)_V

S-hardening
s/t/#_V
s/t/V(ː)_#
ts/t/_

Heavy cluster reduction
p//s_l
p//s_ʀ
t//s_ʀ 2250

Mid high vowel diphthongisation (Well, this one is chronologically rather off, many if not most people have this already)
ø/øy/_
e/ei/_
o/ou/_

Diphthong lowering
ʌʊ/au/_
æɪ/ai/_
œʏ/ay/_

Centralisation of front rounded vowels
øy/ɘɨ/_
y/ɨ/_
ʏ/ɘ/_

Obstruent deletion
O//s_V

Nasal assimilation
kn/ŋ/_
fn/m/_
sn/n/_
χn/ŋ/_ 2350

Plosive weakening
pl/b/_
bl/ʋ/_
pʀ/b/_
bʀ/ʋ/_
tʀ/d/_
dʀ/l/_
tʋ/d/_
dʋ/l/_
kʀ/g/_
kʋ/g/_
kl/g/_

Harmonising vowel shift (as in, nicely filling out the vowel space, getting a nicely symmetrical vowel system)
ɪ/e/_
ɔ/o/_
ʊː/oː/_
ɑː/a/_
ɑ/ɔ/_
aː/a/_
ɜː/aː/_ 2500

Fricative hardening (introduces [q])
F/S/_s(t)#
F/S/_s(t)#

Denasalisation
N/D/_s(t)#
N/D/_s(t)#

Unstressed vowel shortening (what the name says, the change indicated doesn't properly achieve this, so I'll have to tweak by hand)
əː/ə/_
Vː/V/V(ː)C_# 2600

Nasal cluster reduction
mp/b/_
mb/mm/_
nt/d/_
nd/nn/_
ŋk/g/_

Obstruent nasalisation
O/m/m_
O/n/n_
O/ŋ/ŋ_

Obstuent cluster reduction
s//O_#
t//O_#
O/t/_O
O/t/t_
t//_t 2750

Word list
ɪk → ek
jæɪ → jai
hæɪ → hai
y → ɨ
ʋæɪ → ʋai
jʏli → jɘli
zæɪ → tai
dezə → deisə
dɪt → deʔ
di → di
dɑt → dɔʔ
hiːʀ → hiː
daʀ → da
ʋi → ʋi
ʋɑt → ʋɔʔ
ʋaʀ → ʋa
ʋɑneːʀ → ʋɔne
hu → hu
nit → niʔ
ɑlə → ɔlə
veːl → fɘː
ɛŋkələ → ɛgələ
sɔməχə → toməχə
ʋæɪnəχ → ʋainəχ
ɑndəʀ → ɔnnə
en → ein
tʋe → dei
dʀi → li
viːʀ → fiː
væɪf → faif
zɛs → tɛt
zevən → teifə
ɑχt → ɔχ
neχən → neiχə
tin → ʔin
χʀot → χouʔ
lɑŋ → lɔŋ
bʀed → ʋeiʔ
ʋæɪd → ʋaiʔ
dɪk → dek
zʋaʀ → sʋa
hevəχ → heifəχ
klæɪn → gain
kɔʀt → koːʔ
smɑl → smoː
dʏn → dɘn
vʀʌʊ → χau
mɑn → mɔn
mɛns → mɛd
kɪnd → ked
ɛχtχənot → ɛtχənouʔ
mudəʀ → mudə
vadəʀ → fadə
diːʀ → diː
vɪs → fet
voχəl → fouχo
hɔnd → hod
lœʏs → laɨt
slɑŋ → ɬɔŋ
ʋɔʀm → ʋoːm
bom → boum
ʋʌʊd → ʋaut
stɔk → sok
fʀœʏt → χaɨʔ
vʀʏχt → χɘχ
zad → taʔ
blɑd → ʋɔʔ
ʋɔʀtəl → ʋoːʔo
sχɔʀs → soːt
blum → ʋum
χʀɑs → χɔt
tʌʊ → ʔau
koːʀd → koːt
hœʏd → haɨʔ
vles → ɬeit
blud → ʋuʔ
ben → bein
vɛt → fɛʔ
æɪ → ai
hoːʀn → hoːn
staʀt → saʔ
veːʀ → feː
haʀ → ha
hofd → houf
kɔp → kop
oːʀ → oː
oχ → ouχ
nøs → nɘɨt
mɔnd → mod
tɑnd → ʔɔd
tɔŋ → ʔoŋ
vɪŋəʀnaχəl → feŋənaχo
vut → fuʔ
kni → ŋi
hɑnd → hɔd
vløχəl → ɬɘɨχo
bœʏk → baɨk
dɑʀmən → damə
nɛk → nɛk
ʀʏχ → ʀɘχ
bɔʀst → boːs
hɑʀt → haʔ
levəʀ → leifə
dʀɪŋkən → legə
etən → eiʔə
bæɪtən → baiʔə
zœʏχən → taɨχə
spyχən → sɨχə
bʀakən → ʋakə
adəmən → adəmə
lɑχən → lɔχə
zin → tin
hoːʀən → hoːʀə
ʋetən → ʋeiʔə
dɛŋkən → dɛgə
ʀœʏkən → ʀaɨkə
vʀezən → χeisə
slapən → ɬapə
levən → leifə
stɛʀvən → sɛːfə
dodən → doudə
vɛχtən → fɛtə
jaχən → jaχə
slan → ɬan
ʀakən → ʀakə
knɪpən → ŋepə
snæɪdən → naidə
splæɪtən → slaiʔə
stekən → seikə
kʀɑbən → gɔbə
χʀavən → χafə
zʋɛmən → sʋɛmə
vliχən → ɬiχə
lopən → loupə
stɑpən → sɔpə
komən → koumə
lɪχən → leχə
zɪtən → teʔə
stan → san
dʀajən → lajə
vɑlən → fɔlə
χevən → χeifə
hʌʊdən → haudə
knæɪpən → ŋaipə
ʋʀæɪvən → ʀaifə
ʋɑsən → ʋɔsə
veχən → feiχə
tʀɛkən → dɛkə
dyʋən → dɨʋə
ʋɛʀpən → ʋɛːpə
χoːjən → χoujə
vɑstmakən → fɔtmakə
bɪndən → bennə
najən → najə
tɛlən → ʔɛlə
zɛχən → tɛχə
zɪŋən → teŋə
spelən → seilə
zʋevən → sʋeifə
vlujən → ɬujə
vʀizən → χisə
zʋɛlən → sʋɛlə
zɔn → ton
man → man
stɛʀ → sɛː
ʋatəʀ → ʋaʔə
ʀeχən → ʀeiχə
ʀiviːʀ → ʀifi
meːʀ → meː
ze → tei
zʌʊt → taut
sten → sein
zɑnd → tɔd
stɔf → sof
aʀdə → adə
ʋɔlk → ʋoːk
mɪst → mes
nevəl → neifo
lʏχt → lɘχ
heməl → heimo
ʋɪnd → ʋed
sneːʋ → nə
æɪs → ait
ʀok → ʀouk
vyːʀ → fɨː
ɑs → ɔt
bʀɑndən → ʋɔnnə
ʋɛχ → ʋɛχ
bɛʀχ → bɛːχ
ʀod → ʀouʔ
χʀun → χun
χeːl → χɘː
ʋɪt → ʋeʔ
zʋɑʀt → sʋaʔ
nɑχt → nɔχ
dɑχ → dɔχ
jaʀ → ja
ʋɑʀm → ʋam
kʌʊd → kaut
vɔl → foː
niʋ → nɨː
ʌʊd → aut
χud → χuʔ
slɛχt → ɬɛχ
ʀɔt → ʀoʔ
vœʏl → faː
ʀɛχt → ʀɛχ
ʀɔnd → ʀod
sχɛʀp → sɛːp
stɔmp → sob
bɔt → boʔ
χlɑd → ɬɔʔ
nɑt → nɔʔ
dʀoχ → louχ
jœʏst → jaɨs
kɔʀɛkt → koʀɛk
dɪχtbæɪ → detbai
vɛʀ → fɛː
ʀɛχts → ʀɛq
lɪŋks → leg
an → an
bæɪ → bai
ɪn → en
mɛt → mɛʔ
ɛn → ɛn
ɑls → oːt
ɔmdɑt → ommɔʔ
nam → nam
mɛs → mɛt
vɔʀk → foːk
lepəl → leipo
bøl → bɘː
bæɪl → baː
sχʀæɪvən → χaifə

Current Dutch

consonants
plosive pb td k
fricative fv sz χ h
nasal m n ŋ
approximant ʋ l j ʀ

vowels
high tense i y u
high lax ɪ ʏ
mid high e ø o
mid ə (central)
low mid ɛ ɔ
low a ɑ
diphthongs æɪ œʏ ʌʊ

Final inventory
Consonants
plosive pb td kg q ʔ
fricative f s χ h
lat. fric. ɬ
nasal m n ŋ
approximant ʋ l j ʀ

notes
"ʋ, l,ʀ can't occur in coda's"
q only occurs intervocally and in coda's
ɬ,h can't occur in coda's
ʔ,h can't occur in clusters
ŋ can occur in onsets

Vowels
monophthongs
high i i: ɨ ɨ: u u:
mid high e e: ɘ ɘ: o o:
mid low ɛ ɛ: ə ɔ ɔ:
low a a:
diphthongs
mid ei ɘɨ ou
low ai aɨ au

I'll probably be unable to look at possible responses untill Sunday (European time). But then I'll certainly see if I got any constructive criticism.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:20 pm 
Sumerul
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 12:35 pm
Posts: 3600
Location: Tokyo
some of your changes are entirely superficial or cosmetic, like [ʌʊ]→[au] or [æɪ]→[ai]. some of them just change your imagined inventory to how dutch is actually pronounced, at least in the holland region (devoicing of final obstruents and all fricatives, [ən]→[ə], etc).

yes there are probably too many unconditioned changes - in particular I imagine that the plosive clusters would only simplify initially. also most of your changes are simplifications, but we almost always find a sort of balance, where something else is made more complicated at the same time. this is because if we only ever simplify, we would end up grunting.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:30 am 
Lebom
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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:01 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Ultra Traiectum

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:23 am 
Sumerul
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oh yeah also does dutch have ʀ? i never heard that when i was there.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:30 am 
Lebom
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Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:26 am
Posts: 136
Location: Oklahoma
First reaction: "Nooooooo you're making it sound like German!"

Second reaction: "But there are some interesting sound changes."

You might specify where you're starting off at (i.e. the Dutch of Gent is very different from the Dutch of Leiden -- you mentioned 'northern Dutch' a lot, so I'm assuming you're going for Hollands and not Flemish), and why you're going where you're going. In the modern world language change doesn't happen in a vaccuum. Is one accent/dialect becoming more standard, dragging the others with it? More influenced by another language?

I think your heavy cluster reduction is unrealistic. You're dropping the *most* distinct sound out of the clusters (spl > sl; str > sr); I would think in a reduction, contrast would be maximized and similar sounds would drop. That is, I think spl > sp | pl would be more likely.

And maybe I missed this and it's another development in the sound changes, but where the heck does Dutch have /fn/ and /xn/ as clusters (in your nasal assimilation)?

I think you should do a totally different direction for Flemish Dutch, just to see the contrasts :D


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:59 am 
Sumerul
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also careful about introducing typologically uncommon sounds like ɬ - we simply wouldn't expect to see that in that area of Europe. the other thing is unconditionally altering t to ʔ - i guess this is based off of those english accents that do this, except that in english it never ever happens initially, only medially and finally. having a contrast between zero-onset and glottal stop-onset is also incredibly typologically rare, and completely unheard of in Europe, so again something that I doubt will ever happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:48 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:32 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:35 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:39 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:37 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:48 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:58 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:36 am 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:08 pm 
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Does Dutch have stressed vowels phonemically?

If so, why not have glottal stops appear word-initially before them? Unstressed initial vowels would remain unadorned.

Then you could have stress shift any way you want it to and there you have them, contrastive glottal stops.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:22 pm 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:05 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:57 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:11 am 
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Don't worry about the origin of [ɬ] - as I understand it, Welsh /ɬ/ sometimes comes from earlier *sl, and Icelandic <hl> is basically [l̥] but is often more like [ɬ]. (Icelandic also has <hr> [r̥] and a set of voiceless nasals. I see you also have fʀ > χ etc., which helps, because then [ɬ] is part of a bigger set of changes, and not just a freak occurrence.)

As for the cluster reductions, yes, you may want to limit where they occur, but there is precedent here as well. Latin knocked the hell out of its consonant clusters. You get things like stlocus > locus, *snix > nix, and *lousna (from PIE *leuksnā!) > lūna.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:14 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:02 pm 
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