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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:37 am 
Sumerul
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bump

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:54 am 
Sumerul
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Since I don't have anything else to post yet, the Hathic languages:

Code:
PGehu    p b                t d             c ɟ      k g ʔ f      s               h m      n ɲ ŋ l           j   w ʘ ! ǁ ǂ             nʘ n! nǁ nǂ gʘ g! gǁ gǂ
Gehui pʰ p b ɓ pʷʰ pʷ bʷ tʰ t d ɗ        cʰ c ɟ ʄ kʰ k g ʔ f   fʷ s       ɕ     x ħ h m mʷ n ɲ ŋ l ʎ ɭ tɬ    j ɣ w ʘ ! ǁ ǂ ʘʰ !ʰ ǁʰ ǂʰ nʘ n! nǁ nǂ gʘ g! gǁ gǂ
Cher  pʰ p     pʷʰ pʷ    tʰ t            cʰ c     kʰ k   ʔ f   fʷ s   ɬ   ɕ   ʎ̥ x   h m mʷ n ɲ ŋ l     tɬ cʎ̥ j   w
Ngmwr pʰ p   ɓ kpʰ kp    tʰ t   ɗ        cʰ c     kʰ k   ʔ   v    s       ɕ       ħ h m ŋm n ɲ ŋ l   r       j ɣ w ʘ ! ǁ ǂ ʘʰ !ʰ ǁʰ ǂʰ nʘ n! nǁ nǂ gʘ g! gǁ gǂ
Hathe                       t                        k   ʔ   v    s ð           x   h m    n         r       j
Araso    p b                t d             c ɟ      k g   f v    s z     ɕ ʑ       h m    n ɲ ŋ     r       j   w
Ketas                       t               c        k   ʔ        s       ɕ     x ħ h      n         r             ʘ ! ǁ ǂ ʘʰ !ʰ ǁʰ ǂʰ nʘ n! nǁ nǂ gʘ g! gǁ gǂ
Kanagy                      t               c        k   ʔ f v    s                                  r       j     ʘ ! ǁ ǂ ʘʰ !ʰ ǁʰ ǂʰ nʘ n! nǁ nǂ gʘ g! gǁ gǂ
Gunaa    p b                t d      ʈ ɖ    c ɟ      k     f      s       ɕ     x     m    n   ŋ     r       j ɣ w
Rau   pʰ p               tʰ t            cʰ c     kʰ k     f      s z ɬ               m    n   ŋ             j ɣ w
Arve? pʰ p               tʰ t     ts ʈʂ  cʰ c     kʰ k     xʷv    s     ʂ ç     x ħ h m    n   ŋ l r̥ r       j


I'm pretty sure I'm going to bump Arve out since I'm not sure how to get the consonant clusters in the protolang... though most of them are sC C{l r j} NP.

I will start working on Gehui again Eventually, since it is apparently popular. Maybe I will go back to calling it Proto-Hathic. I am not sure how realistic this is but I guess it's sort of like Austronesian.

Might add some intermediate langs to this. Right now it's just Gehui > Cherun, Ngmwragh; Cherun > Hathe, Araso; Ngmwragh > everything else.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:26 am 
Sumerul
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kodé wrote:
ħiniʔ malat rimʔan ka-kilmæħ ka kaħøj.
this knife tomorrow IF.FUT-cut D tree, wood
‘This knife is what is going to be used to chop wood tomorrow.’

IF = Instrumental Focus, where an instrument serves as the subject of the verb.
FUT = Future; the IF.FUT form IIRC is actually a Ca- reduplicant. ...

AF = Agent Focus, with an agent as the subject, and the patient in the accusative
PF = Patient Focus, with a patient as the subject, and the agent in the genitive
/m-patawaw/ is the input form, which surfaces as [ma.ta.waw], with coalescence of the /m-p/.
The /ka/ prefix does a million different things in Saisiyat; I'm not quite sure what it's doing here (my guess is that it's the non-AF future), nor why the PF and PF.DEP suffixes are being stacked. I would have expected [ka-ʔaŋʔaŋ-aj], but maybe I'm parsing it wrong.

βakiʔ m-in-aʔrəm ħaθəβ ila tijamθoŋ.
grandpa AF<PAST>sleep five ASP hour
‘Grandfather has slept for five hours.’

The root of 'sleep' is /paʔrəm/, with the /m-/ prefix causing coalescence. The infix [in] seems to be used like a past tense, but it hasn't been analyzed deeply. I wrote a paper last semester on [ila], which is a post-clitic Perfect marker that also triggers telicity or inchoativity (but it's not always transparent). Actually, this example really helps my argument that [ila] post-cliticizes to the first word of the phrase it takes scope over, since usually a phrase like [ħaθəβ tijamθoŋ] 'five hour' isn't split up. The word for 'hour' that I'm familiar with is [kaʂəpəwan], not [tijamθoŋ].

jami ma-ʔaðʔaðəm ʔam paθ-kayðæħ ka tæwʔan ka-rowaθək-an nonak.
1.INCL.NOM AF-think FUT CAUS-good D house NOM-live-LF self
‘We are thinking that we will build a house for ourselves to live in.’

LF = Locative Focus, with a locative as the subject of the verb; it's mostly used in nominalizations
/paθ-kayðæħ/, lit. CAUS-good, is used for 'make'

ʔojaʔ t-om-alək ka kaθħaw ʔima rikrika: ka-pa-raʔø: ʔiʂoʔon.
mother <AF>cook D liquid REL hot NOM-CAUS-drink 1.SG.BEN
‘Mother cooked hot soup so as to let you drink.’

so I wondered how these would be done in Amqoli...

I don't have any sort of tense-marking yet so I'll make it particles in post-topic position. Determiners don't agree in case when they directly precede the noun but adjectives still do.

Lya zamgole shi ldamu yari damoqs tekra.
[lʲa ˈzaŋgolʲe ʃi ɫdamu jaɾi ˈdamɔqs tɛk(ə)ɾa]
this knife-PRE INSTR tomorrow 1PL wood-ACC 3T.TOP-chop-3I.ABS

Gamash rjete habare qruna zuts.
[ˈgamaʃ ɾəˈdʒɛtɛ ˈhabarɛ ˈq(ə)ɾuna zuts]
grandpa five-PRE hour-PRE SUBORD-3S-PER sleep-3M.ABS

??? (don't know how to handle intent clauses yet so can't do the others)

optional epenthetic schwa in all clusters with r

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:49 pm 
Sumerul
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More Pembrish.

Yola:
MAI’T BE PLESANT TO TH’ECCELLENCIE, – Wee, Vassalès o’ ‘His Most Gracious majesty’, Wilyame ee Vourthe, an, az wee verilie chote, na coshe and loyale dwellerès na Baronie Forthe, crave na dicke luckie acte t’uck neicher th’ Eccellencie, an na plaine grabe o’ oure yola talke, wi vengem o’ core t’gie ours zense o’ y gradès whilke be ee-dighte wi yer name; and whilke we canna zei, albeit o’ ‘Governere’, ‘Statesman’, an alike. Yn ercha and aul o’ while yt beeth wi gleezom o’ core th’ oure eyen dwytheth apan ye Vigere o’dicke Zouvereine, Wilyame ee Vourthe, unnere fose fatherlie zwae oure diaez be ee-spant, az avare ye trad dicke londe yer name waz ee-kent var ee vriene o’ livertie, an He fo brake ye neckares o’ zlaves.

English:
MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY – We, the subjects of his Most Gracious Majesty, William IV, and, as we verily believe, both faithful and loyal inhabitants of the Barony of Forth, beg leave at this favourable opportunity to approach your Excellency, and in the simple dress of our old dialect to pour forth from the strength (or fulness) of our hearts, our sense (or admiration) of the qualities which characterise your name, and for which we have no words but of ‘Governor’, ‘Statesman’, etc. In each and every condition it is with joy of heart that our eyes rest upon the representative of the Sovereign, William IV, under whose paternal rule our days are spent; for before your foot pressed the soil, your name was known to us as the friend of liberty, and he who broke the fetters of the slave.

Pembrish:
MÔT Ê Y'EXLENSI FEIM - Wê, Is Mêst Grêsias Majesty, Wiliam se Vioureth, is vasaws, on, wê wêrliç belwth, eidher trw on ciewêr belers ou's Barony Forth, crawth o thiss luciç tyd a liâf niâcher y'exlensi tô miend, on mid wr yaud sprêçis onviaudiç iar wr çau ou your qualitis t'yw, vorfywc wê cunoch zej bwt "Governor", "Statesman", on ylyç. In euç on euriç fyw bith ê wi giôzen siort th'wr yain reisteth po se Representative ou's Cieng, Wiliam IV, under feis faderliç rwl wr daws yspint biôth; as avor yê trad thiss lond was your nom vor o vriound ou liberty ycint, on as ê fâ the zlauis veters brac.

moːt eː jɛkslənsi fɛi̯m - weː, iz meːst greːʃəs madʒəsti wiljəm zə vjɔu̯rəθis vəˈsau̯z, ɔn, weː weːrlitʃ bəˈluːθ, ɛi̯ðər truː ɔn kɨˈweːr bɛlərz ɔu̯z bɛrəni fɔrθ, krau̯θ ɔ ðis lukitʃ tiːd a ljaːf njaːxər jɛkslənsi toː mɨnd, ɔn mid uːr jau̯d spreːtʃis ɔnˈvjɑu̯ditʃ jar uːr tʃau̯ ɔu̯ jɔu̯r kwalitiz tiu̯, vɔrˈfiu̯k weː kunɔx zɛdʒ buːt ˈgɔvərnərˈ, ˈsteːtsmənˈ, ɔn iˈliːtʃ. in ɛu̯tʃ ɔn ɛu̯ritʃ fiu̯ biθ eː wi gjoːzən ʃɔrt ðuːr jai̯n rɛi̯stəθ pɔ zə rɛprəsɛntətiv ɔu̯z kɨŋ, wiljəm zə vjɔu̯rəθ, undər fɛi̯z vadərlitʃ ruːl uːr dau̯z iˈspint bjoːθ; az əˈvɔr jeː trad ðis lɔnd waz jɔu̯r nɔm vɔr ɔ vriˈjɔu̯nd ɔu̯ libərti iˈkint, ɔn az eː faː ðə zlau̯iz vɛtərz brak.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:17 pm 
Sumerul
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t(`_`t) wrote:
Vántam cabé atwkéyngenn sáiran fenéuce ḩacént.
vant=am cabé atwkey-nge-nn sair=an fenéc-ue ḩa-cemb-t
hill=LOC wool 3S.REFL=have-NEG-GER sheep=TOP horse-PL PST-see-ACT.PFV

Hán áytwcangg ḩáir ifáic ḩaiásang,
hán áytw-cang=an ḩáir i-fait-s ḩa-iása-ng
one 3S.REFL-DAT=TOP wagon ADJ-full-ADJ PST-pull-ACT.IPFV

hánn réyrr lát ḩakáung,
hán=an reyn-r lát ḩa-káu-ng
one=TOP thing-COLL large PST-carry-ACT.IPFV

hánn létak ḩakáung.
hán=an létak ḩa-káu-ng
one=TOP man PST-carry-ACT.IPFV

Náhan sáir fenéucecang ḩatéut:
nah=an sáir fenéc-ue-cang ḩa-teu-t
this=TOP sheep horse-PL-DAT PST-say-ACT.PFV

in Kett script, with ligatures:


Attachments:
kettSheepThing.png
kettSheepThing.png [ 6.4 KiB | Viewed 5918 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 10:49 pm 
Sumerul
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V'eng > Late V'eng

V'eng:
/p t s~tʃ k ʔ/ <p t c k ʼ> -- P
/b d z~dʒ/ <b d z> -- P
/f s̺ x h/ <f s x h> -- F
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ> -- N
/β r j ɣ gʟ/ <v r y g l> -- L
/a ɛ ɔ ɪ ʊ i u/ <a e o ë ö i u> -- V

Onsets: (nb: C includes /br dr my ny/)
C

{p t c k}L
{f x}{P N}
NC
C{v y}

a o / my_ br_ > o ö
my ny > ñ
br dr > ḍ
sv > f
f x > h / _{P N}
h > rising tone
ir ur > ër ör
og > ög
g r > low tone
ë > i / gʟʔ_
rʔ gʟʔ > ṭ k
gi gu > gë gö
l > g
P$ > high tone
i u > z̩ v̩
L > 0 / _{z̩ v̩}
ë ö > i u
N > NP[voice] / _{z̩ v̩}
P > [+voice] / N_
x > t / _z̩
x > k / _v̩
g > v / _i
g > y / _u

todo: have palatalization/assibilation of t- or s- before /i/ before laxing? to add a marginal phoneme or two. no idea how that'd work

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:15 am 
Sumerul
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reposting TCs to bump

En skikkelse lå der på bakken
Så vond at de blomster rundt visnet
En dyster sjel lå der på bakken
Så kald at alt vann ble til is
En skygge da falt over skogen
Da skikkelsens sjel visnet bort
For skikkelsens sjel var en skygge
En skygge av vondskapens makt

Aharn aṭ seincañ ca cent
Keimaṭ as keutar jancas ku fant
Veremb teincaññ seincañ ca cent
Teih as ahaur beihcañ aṭre ku ḥant
Seucaññ leyenrecañ ca kailat
Em teincak jarhan aicañ nah eralt
Vec teincak jarhan seucak ce
Seucak ce icayrir ikeumaṭan

(new orthography -- tw ng -> ṭ ñ, i -> j in same environment as u -> v)

zha ebatus chkex dzrelya
[ʒa eˈbatus tʃə̥̆kex dzə̆ɾelʲa]
1S IPFV-effort-ACC 2P.POSS appreciate
zhu eche da tuba
[ʒu ɛˈtʃe da tuˈba]
REL IPFV-2P.POS BEN 2L.TOP-give
qatkorashri zhe me
[qatkoraʃrɨ ʒe mɛ]
SUBORD-fight-LAT.V 1S.POS LOC
nji qapxots chutem
[ndʒi qaˈpxots tʃuˈtɛm]
though SUBORD-sink 3L.I.TOP-FUT
rbash tkeshi chi nuha
[rə̆ˈbaʃ tkeʃi tʃi nuˈɦa]
enough time-PAR 2P NEG.3M.TOP-have
tqaxelshiri ndemts
[tχɒxɛlʲʃirɨ ndɛmts]
SUBORD-devil-ALL.V NEG-FUT-1S.ABS
chkex batu zhe njuba
[tʃə̥̆kɛç baˈtu ʒe ndʒuˈba]
2P.POSS effort 1S.POS NEG.3L.TOP-do
zh' le tke tsop hargaz
[ʒɫɛ tkɛ tsof ˈhargaz]
1S=this.PRE time too be_great

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:36 pm 
Sumerul
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another bump

gonna have to redo subordinate clauses sometime soon since they're p much the same in amqoli as they are in kannow

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:04 am 
Sumerul
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More Pembrish. Working out noun declensions.

Applying the sound changes gives:
Code:
Strong: Masc      Neut            Fem
iŋǝu  iŋlǝs  scip   scipǝ    zɔrǝv zɔrwǝ
iŋǝu  iŋlǝs  scip   scipǝ    zɔrwǝ zɔrwǝ
iŋlǝs iŋlǝ   scipǝs scipǝ    zɔrwǝ zɔrwǝ
iŋlǝ  iŋlǝ   scipǝ  scipǝ    zɔrwǝ zɔrwǝ

Weak: Masc        Neut            Fem
nɔmǝ  nɔmǝ    jai   jawn   tuŋǝ  tuŋǝ
nɔmǝ  nɔmǝ    jai   jawn   tuŋǝ  tuŋǝ
nɔmǝ  nɔmǝnǝ  jawn  jajna  tuŋǝ  tuŋǝn
nɔmǝ  nɔmǝ    jawn  jawn   tuŋǝ  tuŋǝ

But obviously this will simplify and analogize out. (Why does 'angel' have palatalization?)

The -n plural will be retained to some extent in monosyllables, but elsewhere the n-dropping kicks in.

Genitive formation has already been worked out -- masculine and neuter take -'s, and feminine take -'r, analogized from the reanalysis of the genitive -s as an unstressed form of the masculine pronoun (as in English, or was this actually a new construction?) but with gender marking.

I like the idea of having -v in -Rg nouns, so 'sorg' will give zorv (with an epenthetic vowel as in Welsh).

Case leveling. l-vocalization analogizes out. So: ingel/ingles, schip/schipes, zorv/zorves, nome/nomes, yai/yawn*, tunge/tunges

* yain? why does this always have /ai/ in English/Scots? no data on Yola. how did gh-loss work anyway?

irregular nouns:
vôt/veit, nhute/nhiete, bôc/beic, tôth/teith, mon/min, vryound/vryend, viound/vyend, stude/stiede...

this is something that'll have to be worked out on an individual lexical level, but as long as the general outline is there

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:36 pm 
Sumerul
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Pembrish verbs.

Applying the sound changes to Wikipedia's examples gives
Code:
zwebǝ    hêlǝ     zīðġǝ    stelǝ
zweust   helst    zīðǝst   stiust
zweuþ    heuþ     zīðǝþ    stiuð
zweuþ    helǝþ    zīðġǝþ   stelǝþ

zweudǝ   hoidǝ    zīðǝdǝ   stal
zweudǝst hoidǝst  zīðǝdǝst stêlǝ
zweudǝ   hoidǝ    zīðǝdǝ   stal
zweudǝ   hoidǝ    zīðǝdǝ   stêlǝ
 
zwebǝ    hêlǝ     zīðġǝ    stelǝ
zwebǝ    hêlǝ     zīðġǝ    stelǝ
 
zweudǝ   hoidǝ    zīðǝdǝ   stêlǝ
zweudǝ   hoidǝ    zīðǝdǝ   stêlǝ
 
zweu     hêl      zīðǝ     stel
zwebǝþ   hêlǝþ    zīðġǝþ   stelǝþ

zweundǝ  hêlǝndǝ  zīðġǝndǝ stelǝndǝ
zweud    hêlǝd    zīðǝd    gǝstolǝ

(but ġǝ > i, which I haven't included here for clarity. that will probably regularize out though)

So there are some obvious patterns -- indicative is -e -st -th -th, past -e -st -e -e, and I might have some or all of those schwas drop. Participles are y-, though I thought the ending was -nd, which would give y- -n.

Irregular verbs will have to be handled individually...

I'm not sure if I want l-vocalization to undo itself through regularization. That'd mean killing e-i, so stele stelst stelth steleth.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:19 pm 
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Copula regularizes: beon takes over all forms. (Welsh doesn't have a ser-estar distinction, does it?)

Present: bio bist bith bioth

Not sure if I want wa > oə > o to apply in stressed syllables... although it already does in 'one', so why not. Then again, could be restored through analogy from 2S + PL -- I'll go with that.

Past: wos wêre wos wêre(n?)

Future tense is formed by cognate of 'shall':

siau siaut siau siule

First e in sceolde is probably orthographic device to indicate palatalization, but I'm not sure if I'll need the past for that.

Really should get a Welsh grammar to see how it does tense formation; after past in Irish English shows that there's room for innovation there.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:51 pm 
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incapable of seeing references to a future english without stopping everything and banging out diachronics

o u > ɛu yu / EXCEPT _l, _${o u}, and in 'both'
hj > ç
t > ts / _{ɪ i y(u)}
æ ɛ > eɪ / _ŋ
ɛ > ɪ / _N
i ei > ɯi e
ɑ ʌ > ɔ / _l
l > 0 / {ɔ o u}_
l > u / V_C
l > ə / [offglide]_{V #}
ɛu yu > ø y
ar er or > ʌr ir ur, er > ir doesn't apply across morpheme boundaries
ʌr ir ur > ɤ iə uə
æ ɔ > eə oə > iə uə
iə uə > i u
ai au aiə auə > a æ a æ
ɑ > a / _C[alveolar]
a æ > æ æi
t tʃ k > ʔ ʃ ʔ / _$
nt nd > ̃ɾ / V_V
nt nd > ̃ʔ ̃ / V_{C #}
ɾ > 0 / V_V EXCEPT V_Vn (where it's realized as a glottal stop anyway)
ð > 0 / V_V[-stress]
θ ð > f d / #_
θ ð > f v
ɪ > i / _{n ŋ}
VN > Ṽ / _C
d > 0 / _#
tr dr str spr skr > tʂʰ tʂ ʂ ʂp ʂk / $_
r > ɣ / labial_
ʊ ɚ > ɯ
reduced vowels neutralize to ə + lose nasality except in particles + drop if _#
VC[plosive|nasal]ən > V:C[nasal]
some cluster simplification

ɔl hjumən bijɪŋz ər born frij ənd ijkwəl ɪn dɪgnɪɾɨ ənd rʌits. ðej ar ɪndaud wɪθ rijzən ənd kɑnʃɨns ənd ʃʊd ækt tordz wʌn ʌnʌðər ɪn ə spirɪt əv brʌðərhʊd.
uə çy:m bĩ:z ɯ bũə fɣɯi n ɯiku ʔɪ̃ dɪɣnɪ: n rʌis. di ndæi wɪ rɯizn n kæ̃ʃəs n ʃɨ ʔæiʔ tuz wʌ̃ nʌv ɪ̃: spirə: bɣʌvəhɯ.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:01 am 
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Nortaneous wrote:
Copula regularizes: beon takes over all forms. (Welsh doesn't have a ser-estar distinction, does it?)
Not per se, no. However, in the 3rd person or the present tense there's all sorts of weird shit going on: this is for Middle Welsh, which might be of more use to you.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:29 am 
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That'll be useful -- might calque from that. Should get more Middle Welsh material in general; there's a lot of phonological influence (esp. in the stability of the vowels...), but not much else.

Considering adding open-syllable law... this has it, but not reflected in orthography. Affected words are marked with an asterisk. Setting allows calquing of English structures + borrowing of English < Norman words in modern-period texts and I'm abusing the hell out of that. English loans are italicized.

When Bears are seen Approaching in the distance,
Make up your mind at once between Retreat and Armed Resistance.
A Gentleman remained to fight—With what result for him?
The Bear, with ill-concealed delight, Devoured him, Limb by Limb.
Another Person turned and ran; He ran extremely hard:
The Bear was faster than the Man, And beat him by a yard.

Fon eure beirn* ysein atgangen in tha viornes sint,
Tiôs*'w at ouns atwein retryt ou'n vul-ywepned vit.
Oan man, hei stôd hizeu oun vacht—mid fat rezielt tô him?
Se beir, mid unconsyl'd delait, tar him lim vroa lim.
Enôr**, hei tiern'd hizeu oun arn***, arn unymetliç hard:
Se beir oas cwicer than**** se man, oun yat him widh***** oa yard.


** irregular, follows Yola anoor
*** from iernan, WS variant of rinnan
**** nn doesn't cause breaking, it's just absurd otherwise
***** Welsh uses gan according to Google Translate -- using with instead of mid here but not sure if that's a good idea

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:13 pm 
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The Vengic languages. Diachronics for V'eng, Vian, and Voangh already exist; Vynyi is conservative, preserving disyllables. (I think the PV form is ʔəvɛŋi. ɛŋ > əŋ, preinitial loss. In V'eng and Voangh, ɛCi > ɪC -- Voangh then merges ɪ ʊ to schwa, written <oa> because fuck if I know)

Proto-Vengic word structure is (Cə)CVCV, with some clusters that can occur as the first C of the disyllable.

V'ëng:
/p t s~tʃ k ʔ/ <p t c k ʼ>
/b d z~dʒ/ <b d z>
/f s̺ x h/ <f s x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/β r j ɣ gʟ/ <v r y g gl>
/a ɛ ɔ ɪ ʊ i u/ <a e o ë ö i u>

Syllable structure: (pre)(C|mj|bj|br|dr)V(P|R), where (pre) is a preinitial, derived from sesquisyllable onsets in the protolang.

The possible preinitial consonants are p t c k ʼ f s x h m n v y.
v y metathesize with the following consonant: y- + peng > pyeng. y can't occur after palatals; v can't occur after labials.
ʼ is always written as if it metathesizes with the following consonant, but phonetically it doesn't: Vʼëng is [ʔβɪŋ].
p t c k are only contrastive before approximants; they debuccalize to ʼ in all other environments.
h is written as if it metathesizes. It aspirates voiceless consonants and devoices nasals, at least for older speakers; for younger speakers its main phonetic effect is giving the syllable rising tone. Word-final h merges with preinitial h for younger speakers.
f x only appear before stops and nasals. Younger speakers merge them with h.
m n merge for all but the oldest speakers, and don't contrast before labials.

Vian:
/p b t d ʈ ɖ k g/
/f v s z x h/
/m n ɲ/
/r j/
/a e o i u z̩ v̩/ + some diphthongs + some tones from V'ëng preinitials. nasalization is contrastive. (are there any languages with nasalized fricated vowels?)

It's probably possible to list all possible syllables in this -- there aren't that many. I'm thinking _ tones: V'eng already has two, and tonogenesis will probably proceed in stages from there. Tone sources are word-final consonants, /h/, glottal/ejective initials, preinitials; h > tone has already happened in V'eng. Might have preinitials just drop or simplify; some already do, as with my > ñ.

Voangh:
/p b mp mb t d nt nd tr̥ dr ntr̥ ndr tʃ dʒ ntʃ ndʒ k g ŋk ŋg ʔ/
/s x h/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/l r j~z w~v/
/æ ɑ ɛ œ ɔ e ø ə o i y ɨ u/
/ai əi œy əu/
/æə eə iə/
/ɨɑ ɨe ɨi/
Finals: j~z w~v ɴ ʔ. CV(C). Low-mid and high-mid don't contrast when nasalized.

Vynyi:
/pʰ p b tʰ t d tʃ dʒ k g/
/f s z ɬ x h/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/β~w l ɻ j ɣ/
/a e ə o i u/
C(j w)V(n r); preinitials were lost after conditioning vowel bending and retroflexion, which shifted to coda r. Preserves final syllables, lost in all other Vengic languages. I forget what /ɬ/ is from.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:30 am 
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Here's what's known so far of Proto-Vengic:

Roots are limited to three syllables. The second is stressed.

The first syllable allows the following initials: p t c k ʼ f s x h m n. (V'eng semivowel preinitials can be derived by the same process as in Voangh.) /e i o u/ occur as finals. (There are no coda consonants, so 'medial' doesn't make sense.)

The second syllable allows the clusters /br dr/ or any one consonant as an initial, and any vowel as the final. (/mj pj/ appear in V'eng but could be artifacts of preinitial vowels.)

The third syllable allows any one consonant, or a cluster in the case of reduplication. Vowels: /a i u/.

----

My earlier post on Proto-Vengic gives the following:
Quote:
Root structure: (C1{ĕ ŏ ĭ1 ŭ1})(C2){a e o i u}(C3({ă ĭ2 ŭ2}))

C1 = p t c k ʔ f s x h m n
C2 = any C or br dr gr fr sr xr my py by vy
C3 = any C except unvoiced non-glottal plosives

/p t tʃ k ʔ/ <p t c k ʔ>
/b d dʒ g/ <b d z g>
/β r j ɣ/ <v r y ğ>
/f s x h/ <f s x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/l/ <l>


But this is only for V'eng and Voangh -- Vynyi may preserve more that isn't present in either. One likely addition is /z/, which would merge with /dʒ/ in V'eng and possibly Voangh, since the voice contrast appears for the rest of the fricatives.

What I would say now is:

First syllable: any stop, fricative, or nasal + any vowel
Second syllable: any consonant. Not sure what to do about clusters yet.
Third syllable: any consonant [but no clusters] followed by any vowel. /e o/ merge with /a i u/ in the monosyllabizing group.

V'eng doesn't allow initial velar nasals, but that can't be projected back to the protolang since it has no final consonants.

As for inventory:

/p t tʃ k q/ <p t c k q>
/b d dʒ g/ <b d j g>
/β~v~w z j ɣ/ <v z y gh>
/f s x h/ <f s x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/l r/ <l r>
/a e o i u/ <a e o i u>

q > ʔ in the monosyllabizing group, but not in Vynyi.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2014 5:04 pm 
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Amqoli in Ngmwragh script, why not


Attachments:
amqoli seven kill.png
amqoli seven kill.png [ 5.17 KiB | Viewed 5391 times ]

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:04 pm 
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So, diachronics for V'eng to Vian:

/p t s~tʃ k ʔ/ <p t c k ʼ>
/b d z~dʒ/ <b d z>
/f s̺ x h/ <f s x h>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/β r j ɣ gʟ/ <v r y g l>
/a ɛ ɔ ɪ ʊ i u/ <a e o ë ö i u>

Preinitials: pₚ tₚ cₚ kₚ ʔₚ fₚ sₚ xₚ hₚ mₚ nₚ vₚ yₚ.

Preinitial mergers:
pₚ tₚ cₚ kₚ > ʔₚ / _C UNLESS _A -- the plosive preinitials debuccalize everywhere but before /v r y g l/
pₚ tₚ cₚ kₚ > ʈ / _r -- this probably occurred at the same time as the other retroflex-creating shifts
h$ > hₚ -- syllable-final h becomes aspiration
fₚ xₚ > hₚ / _C UNLESS _A
s(ₚ)v s(ₚ)r s(ₚ)y s(ₚ)g s(ₚ)l > f ʂ ɕ x ɬ
mₚ > nₚ

Retroflexes and alveolar affricates:
o > ö / br_
ʔₚbr ʔₚdr ʔₚr > ʔₚʈ (the glottal preinitial devoices following plosives)
br dr > ɖ
t d > ts dz / _{i ë e y}

Final palatal loss: (added)
ac az > as ar
ec ez > as ar
ëc ëz > os or
ic iz > os or
oc oz > ös ör
öc öz > os or
uc uz > es er

Intermediate diphthongization + dissimilation of diphthongs.
More: show
ac az ec ez ëc ëz ic iz oc oz öc öz uc uz
ais air eis eir ëis ëir ëis ëir ois oir öis öir uis uir
ais air ais air əis əir əis əir ois oir əis əir ys yr
as ar as ar os or os or ös ör os or es er

Vowel changes and gamma loss:
i u > ë ö / _r
ë e > yö yo / #_ng (added)
ë e > ö o / _ng (added)
x ɣ > c z / _i
ɣ > v / $_{e o ö u}
ɣ > y / $_
gʟ > g
a > o / my_

High vowel frication:
i u > ɿ ʮ
ë ö > i u
x c r z > t t d d / _ɿ
t d > ts dz / _ɿ
x r > k d / _ʮ
vu > ʮ

Palatals form:
t d n s > tɕ dʑ ȵ ɕ / _{e i y} -- but isn't palatalization of velars more common? maybe I'll do that instead
my > ȵ
y > 0 / C[palatal]_ C[labial]_ -- not sure if I want to keep this

Diphthong mergers:
a e o i u > ə ə ou ou ou / Cy_ -- this should make palatals phonemic
a e o i u > ə ei ə ei ei / Cv_

Tonogenesis:
sₚtɕ sₚdʑ sₚʈ sₚɖ sₚs sₚʂ sₚɕ sₚɬ sₚl > ɕ ʑ ʂ r s ʂ ɕ ɬ ɬ
sₚ > hₚ
Default tone is 3.
hₚ ʔₚ > 35 2
c z > ʔ r / _$
ʔ$35 ʔ$3 ʔ$2 R$35 R$3 R$2 > 5 5 3 42 31 31 -- tone inventory: 31 2 3 5 35 42
s x > ɕ / _i
x > f / _u
x > h

Stop voicing loss:
P[voice] > P[-voice]V[breathy]
31 2 3 5 35 42 > 3 5 2 2 42 42 31 / V[breathy]_
(intermediates: 31 > 121 > 13, 35 5 > 24 > 243)
nₚP > P[voice]
nₚf nₚv nₚs nₚʂ nₚɕ nₚ{ɬ l} nₚx > b b dz ɖ dʑ n g

Let's see what this looks like.

Yi5 e3 ɕa35 vu3 dʮ3 fing3 nka3. A2 tɕeng35 v3 o5 ge31, a2 xi3 ʂe3 e3 sɿ3 na31, a2 sɿ3 tɕi31 ya3. Tɕeng35 veng3 zɿ3, "I35 ca3 va2 zɿ31, i35 ca3 pʮ31." ȵon3 zɿ31 ung3 na35, ȵon3 du31 ung3 ntɕi3. A2 veng3, "I35 ca3 vo2 zɿ3 ɖu3, i35 ca3 ɖu3 e3 ɕi3 vo2 to31 a3 me3 ge3 ge3 zeng3 ri5. O2 Kom3 ʈa2 ge31, zɿ3 ɖu3, zɿ3 to31 si3 ndʑi3 tɕeng35 vo3.

Or: (assuming nasal neutralization and c-tc merger)

Yit e xah v dv fin nka. Ad chenh v ot gep, ad xi she e sy nap, ad sy chip ya. Chenh wen zy, ih cha wad zyp, ih cha pvp. Nyon zyp un nah, nyon duh un nchi. Ad wen, ih cha vod zy dru, ih cha dru e xi wod top a me ge ge zen rit. Od kom trad gep, zy dru, zy top xi nji chenh wo.


So, there are a few problems with this: the 42 tone, only from syllables with the h- preinitial and a coda resonant, is going to be very infrequent. And I haven't figured out how to get /ts dz/ yet, except before the apical vowel.

What I might do is shift the voicing distinction to tone, and then create a new voicing contrast from the nasal preinitial: so p b np nb > p p b b. I also want some sort of vowel warping from the lost final consonants; the n-ng contrast will be the best for generating this, and I might be able to increase the contrast of palatals with that, or get the alveolar affricates.

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Last edited by Nortaneous on Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 9:06 pm 
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Assuming alveolars > palatals before i and i y u take initial y z w which then neutralizes the contrast. I'll write i zy u. Umlaut = 42.

Í e xǎ wu tẁ fun ga. À cǒn wu ǔ ke, a xi she e Synâ, à sy-tsî ya. Tsǒn won jỳ, "Ǐ cha và cy, ǐ cha pê. Nyan cy un nǎ, nyan tu un ji. À won, "Ǐ cha wò jỳ trù, ě cha trù e xi wò tô a me kè-kè chòn rí. Ò Kon trà ke, jỳ trù, jỳ tô xi ji cǒn wo. Kon won-won, "Cǒn ga tẁ von ga jỳ yě wo, nyo shŷ e cǒn me trẅ. Cha sù, cha kwn-kwn un e cǒn, pò w jỳ." À pò w con chò ǒ e tǎ, pò w yǎ e rê, à mǐ wô trù.

Tone count:
á..
a............................................................
à...............................
â......
ǎ....................
ä.

It looks like 5 and 42 aren't common at all -- 5 is from the glottal final without the glottal preinitial, so I can add more of those and there should be grammatical alternations which can be expanded by analogy no I can't unless I add a suffix, but 42, which is from coda resonants + preinitial h- or the 5 35 tones with an initial voiced stop... that shouldn't be as uncommon as it is, but voiced stops aren't that common in V'eng to begin with. I might either merge 5 into 42 (which strikes me as unlikely) or merge 35 into 5 and 42 into 31, which would give:

a............................................................
à...............................
â.......
á......................

That seems better. Anything else I do to the tones will make the distribution worse. So the tone inventory is 1 3 5 31.

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PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 11:52 am 
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The seeker of the truth is not who studies the writings of the Ancients and, following his natural disposition, trusts them, but rather who doubts his faith in them and questions what takes from them, who lends himself to argumentation and demonstration and not to what has been said by human beings whose nature is full of all kinds of imperfections and deficiencies. Thus the task of whom investigates the writings of scientists, if learning the truth is his goal, is to become enemy of all that he reads and, applying his mind to the heart and margins of what it contains, attack it through all sides. He should be suspicious of himself while he carries out such critical exam in order to avoid falling into prejudice and indulgence.

Se wêrthzeicier nis ey the vrytinges thas êriauders rêdeth, on volyënt his ybard, belwth hyen, ac bith ey the his trwth y'm piônth on fat thing vroa'm vrainth, bith ey the argiument on demonstrasion deith, on nauch fat min, fas ybard vul of yal ciendes of giut on zwetherung bith, was zediënt ne heideth.

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:41 pm 
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Amqoli morphophonology.

I'm stealing the general idea from Arrakum, but most roots are either CVC, CVCV, or CVCVC, occasionally with clusters, so it's slightly less complicated.

(It would be interesting if someone did a consonantal-root conlang with Georgian-style unit clusters. Amqoli doesn't really have ablaut though; it has vowel harmony instead.)

First, some diachronics must be explained. Amqoli developed vowel harmony through frontness spreading, giving front rounded vowels, which subsequently unrounded. Long vowels split into diphthongs: a: e: o: i: u: > ay ey ow iy uw -- and, as has been previously established by vowel-shortening processes, y w merged into ž b. However, ö: ü: > öẅ üẅ, and ẅ > by > bž. This got regularized out in most words, but a few common words ending in -e -i lengthen to -ebž -ibž instead of -ež -iž.

So, there are a few processes for affixes; I'll steal the conventions for writing these from Arrakum.

-+ adds a mora to the final syllable.
-& adds a mora to the first syllable. (not penultimate!)
-$ deletes a mora from the final syllable.
-% deletes a mora from the penultimate syllable, unless it contains a stressed vowel. Stressed vowels don't delete.

For deletion: note that /i u/ are not deleted, but simply changed to /ž b/.

Also:
-€ changes the word's harmony class to front. (If applied with a lengthener, this means e i lengthen to ebž ibž.)
-¤ changes the word's harmony class to back.
I don't know if I'll use these, but I'll define them anyway.

Now I have to go back and fix all the affixes to account for this...

I'm not sure what to do about the topic markers on verbs -- most of them are CV- prefixes distinguished only by the vowel, but stress falls on the first syllable of the root.

There are probably some consonant cluster changes here -- n > r except before a consonant, but br > mn, which is often [n].

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PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 11:43 pm 
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-$ deletes a mora from the final syllable unless this would create a CCC cluster.
-@ deletes a mora from the final syllable; if this would create a CCC cluster, an epenthetic schwa (written ä) is inserted.
Note that CPF clusters don't count as CCC here.

The partitive suffix is already known to delete vowels; I'll make it -$.

So:
khura cocoon
seqli sun
tsxur nose
gamnux dictionary

+ -$shi partitive:
khurshi
seqlishi (no deletion because CCV-CV)
tsxurshi (no deletion because monosyllabic)
gamnuxshi

I might make this affix be -sh when it doesn't delete a vowel.

Another thing I forgot is that some affixes only affect the final mora if it's not consonant-final. I'll call those -#.

+ -#e postpositional case:
khure
seqle
tsxure
gamnuxe

I don't have any lengthening morphemes yet; I'll make -+(U) noun > adj. ((U) means that -u gets added if a cluster is produced that violates the sonority hierarchy -- which is slightly unconventional in Amqoli -- , but this doesn't happen here)

khurazh 'like a cocoon'
seqlizh 'like a sun'
tsxumn 'like a nose' (br > mn)
gamnup 'like a dictionary' (bx > px > p_h > p since aspirated plosives can only occur in the onset of stressed or immediately post-stress syllables)

Affixes that affect the first syllable will probably be restricted mostly to verbs, but the weird aspect shit noun prefix might be one too.

chiha 'rain'
jam 'walk'
blex 'stab'
+ -&tU 'noun that does verb' >
chihashti 'cloud'
jandu 'person who walks' (ymt > nmt > nt > nd)
bleshthu 'stabber' (FxP > FPx)

NB: front vowels from harmonizing suffixes take -bzh-:
chihashti + -+(U) > chihashtibzh 'overcast'

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 12:53 pm 
Sumerul
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Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:04 pm 
Sumerul
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Amqoli recording: http://vocaroo.com/i/s0VEJSyjOCvb

Borju rkaz i ema xadzi lberis. Erzhel Borjum njarye zgu marideq, erzhel bqu taqubza. Ema muqrzhex, es rbel shqaqori, es Borjum xadzi ne me qol, "Zhim photsmashx, sha obzhdami regas!" Sha Borju, "Zha temts," lu tqol. Sha xadzi tem, tphotsmashx, topshix, es obzhdami trega — shlya ham Borju, lu, qabqux tkeli, sha ndraphotsmashxam khri mga ruglis. Rkaz i ema xadzi, ndraphotse seqlime erzhel temnishri, Borju tere, sha lu taqbri taqbri, sha lu buzhi. "Borju! Tse mqarzhex zgu ga taxenm chubri!"

(A language that can't be spoken, only shouted.)

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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 4:04 pm 
Sumerul
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Proto-Kharidze

p t ts tʃ k q
b d dz dʒ g ʁ
ɓ ɗ
s ʃ x h
z ʒ
m n l r j w
(mʲ nʲ lʲ rʲ)

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